39 replies to this topic

[The pessimistic optimist]

I like to see PGi redo the skill tree in a way to address some of the balance problems. One those problems is IS XL engines. I want them to keep that IS die if they lose the side torso. It also makes them of limited use. I like to see PGI add a high level skill at the bottom called reinforced XL. Make the XL more tanky but it still die if torso goes down. To balance this out I would add a high level Clan skill called improved XL functionally or what ever yea want to call it. If Clan mech lose a side torse it keeps more speed and heat dissipation. Thais how I would do it

[Alex Morgaine]

so what you mean like a damage reduction buff to the side torso for IS XL equipped mechs and passive reduced penalties on Clan XL via skill tree? that wouldn't change the IS XL death on side torso at all, and seem like a must pick for Clan XL mechs, wouldn't it?
My next question would be what would standard engine and IS LFE get?

[Heavy Money]

I think it'd be better to remove the instant death on side torso loss for IS XLs. I'd rather live with bigger penalties for side torso loss compared to a Light engine. The extra firepower you get from an XL just isn't enough on Heavies and Assaults to justify the fragility.

[VonBruinwald]

Heavy Money, on 26 December 2020 - 05:40 PM, said:

I think it'd be better to remove the instant death on side torso loss for IS XLs. I'd rather live with bigger penalties for side torso loss compared to a Light engine. The extra firepower you get from an XL just isn't enough on Heavies and Assaults to justify the fragility.

This!

Also, remember the LFE. it's the same size but weighs more than cXL so by rights it should have some kind of an advantage over the cXL to balance it:

"When a LFE equipped mech loses a side torso it should keep more speed and heat dissipation than a cXL." That's how it should be done.


Imagine mix-tech became a thing then ask yourself "For what reason would I take a XL/LFE over a cXL?" if there isn't one you know the balance is wrong.

[Elizander]

I don't want to be immune to XL torso death, but I don't want death to be instant. Let my mech move for 5-15 more seconds after losing a side torso before going down.

[LordNothing]

a +1 engine crit quirk is all you need. an engine would need 4 crits to blow instead of the usual 3. of course your engine performance would be based off how many crits have been scored on it, so isxl would become very sluggish with 3 crits (equivalent to an st loss) but it would still be in the game.

some battlemechs and select is omnis would get this quirk (anything under 80kph probably). maybe some clan omnis too. a skill node is also an option but it would likely need to be buried fairly deep in the survival tree. would probibly eliminate it as a quirk because a +2 engine crit might be a bit excessive (and if clan mechs could have it it would mean a cxl would continue to function with both torsos cleaved, and that poses a huge balance conundrum).

Edited by LordNothing, 27 December 2020 - 05:00 AM.

[The pessimistic optimist]

LordNothing, on 27 December 2020 - 04:53 AM, said:

a +1 engine crit quirk is all you need. an engine would need 4 crits to blow instead of the usual 3. of course your engine performance would be based off how many crits have been scored on it, so isxl would become very sluggish with 3 crits (equivalent to an st loss) but it would still be in the game.

some battlemechs and select is omnis would get this quirk (anything under 80kph probably). maybe some clan omnis too. a skill node is also an option but it would likely need to be buried fairly deep in the survival tree. would probibly eliminate it as a quirk because a +2 engine crit might be a bit excessive (and if clan mechs could have it it would mean a cxl would continue to function with both torsos cleaved, and that poses a huge balance conundrum).

+4 engine can be a max level skill. If you want to keep leveling reforced XL you can unlock no death IS XLs at the bottom of the skill tree

Edited by SirSmokes, 27 December 2020 - 07:40 AM.

[K O Z A K]

ever since the brilliant addition of the side torso destruction heat changes LFE and Cxl also basically mean instant death most of the time, so....pretty balanced I guess?

[LordNothing]

Hazeclaw, on 27 December 2020 - 08:27 AM, said:

ever since the brilliant addition of the side torso destruction heat changes LFE and Cxl also basically mean instant death most of the time, so....pretty balanced I guess?

i dont like the spikes. it allows an enemy to trigger an overheat by taking out your torso. im sure the other player wanted the kill and i dont want the suicide point. i consider this advanced tactics so at least fix the scoring so that its treated as a kill and not a suicide.

i think if you lose heat sinks any heat they contain (say in the form of coolant) is lost with them along with the loss of capacity. that should be taken into account when figuring out heat spikes. would give a purpose to shs as you can stack a lot of them so that when you lose parts, you can stay in the fight with any remaining weapons you might have, because most of your heat went with them. might limit this to only external heat sinks, engine heat sinks are in the engine and all that hot coolant is going to spew all over your engine. this enables playes to build their mechs to minimize spikes.

Edited by LordNothing, 27 December 2020 - 09:54 AM.

[Nightbird]

SirSmokes, on 26 December 2020 - 07:55 AM, said:

Make the XL more tanky but it still die if torso goes down.

XL only dies when torso goes down, engines do not take crit damage in MWO. Suggestion does nothing.

[VonBruinwald]

Hazeclaw, on 27 December 2020 - 08:27 AM, said:

ever since the brilliant addition of the side torso destruction heat changes LFE and Cxl also basically mean instant death most of the time, so....pretty balanced I guess?

I see someone who likes to red-line

Save a coolshot or dial it back when your ST is critical and you'll have a better chance of surviving. Popping a coolshot when your torso blows can save you from a suicide. So does riding the heat curve lower, if your weapons generate 60% heat waiting to cool and poking at 10% instead of 40% could also save your mech when the ST pops.

[LordNothing]

if you aren't redlining you aren't doing enough damage.

Nightbird, on 27 December 2020 - 10:55 AM, said:

XL only dies when torso goes down, engines do not take crit damage in MWO. Suggestion does nothing.

perhaps maybe it ought to.

[Brizna]

I think survival tree is already very strong to make it any better. Bedisdes I don't think the is XL engine problem is such a big deal anymore after the addition of light engines.

[Heavy Money]

Brizna, on 27 December 2020 - 12:32 PM, said:

I think survival tree is already very strong to make it any better. Bedisdes I don't think the is XL engine problem is such a big deal anymore after the addition of light engines.

People switching to an alternative isn't a solution to the initial problem. It'd be nice if XL engines weren't relegated to just risky second line fire support builds.

[Nightbird]

Heavy Money, on 27 December 2020 - 12:37 PM, said:

People switching to an alternative isn't a solution to the initial problem. It'd be nice if XL engines weren't relegated to just risky second line fire support builds.

They're not. Barring some builds that need more than 9 slots in the STs for weapons, all my IS mechs are XL. They work fine.

[VonBruinwald]

Nightbird, on 27 December 2020 - 12:42 PM, said:

They're not. Barring some builds that need more than 9 slots in the STs for weapons, all my IS mechs are XL. They work fine.

You're a light pilot. The bigger the mech the less viable an XL.

[Nightbird]

VonBruinwald, on 27 December 2020 - 02:08 PM, said:

You're a light pilot. The bigger the mech the less viable an XL.

I'm a FP pilot, you can't see my stats on Jarl's but you can ingame in the FP leaderboards.

[Heavy Money]

Nightbird, on 27 December 2020 - 12:42 PM, said:

They're not. Barring some builds that need more than 9 slots in the STs for weapons, all my IS mechs are XL. They work fine.

The conventional wisdom I've seen is that XL engines are a waste on assaults as its common to lose a side torso and keep fighting. And on heavies, they are a bad idea except on ranged fire support builds. My personal experience has been in line with this.

Can you explain why this is incorrect, or what your rational is?

[Nightbird]

Heavy Money, on 27 December 2020 - 03:13 PM, said:

The conventional wisdom I've seen is that XL engines are a waste on assaults as its common to lose a side torso and keep fighting. And on heavies, they are a bad idea except on ranged fire support builds. My personal experience has been in line with this.

Can you explain why this is incorrect, or what your rational is?

XL engine gives you speed and more tonnage for weapons. This means you can avoid more damage and kill your enemy faster, both of which increases your survival. The only real question is, if your weapons don't require >9 ST slots, whether you can torso twist and use up HP from both ST. If the answer is yes, you use XL, if you stare at everything and lose a ST all the time with the rest of your mech undamaged, don't use XL. It's a matter of risk and reward, a balance modified by pilot skill.

[VonBruinwald]

Nightbird, on 27 December 2020 - 03:30 PM, said:

XL engine gives you speed and more tonnage for weapons. This means you can avoid more damage and kill your enemy faster, both of which increases your survival. The only real question is, if your weapons don't require >9 ST slots, whether you can torso twist and use up HP from both ST. If the answer is yes, you use XL, if you stare at everything and lose a ST all the time with the rest of your mech undamaged, don't use XL. It's a matter of risk and reward, a balance modified by pilot skill.

That's an eloquent way of phrasing "Git Gud".