88 replies to this topic

[Duke Falcon]

Insane builds, not necessary usefull, but mine and created this topic to ask your opinion about them...

First, here are two Summoner builds:
SMN-PRIME
and
SMN-PRIME

What do you think, which one is the better? Currently I use the first but think to change toward the second.

Hope the links work and remain functional, and, thanks your future answers!

[Guardian Soul]

Hello!

First quick thing, unless you're running away from the enemy often, you can easily shave armor off the rear torso and put it on the front. I tend to go 5 rear armor and max front armor on all my torso slots, but I've seen people go as low as 2 rear armor. It really does help tank just a few more trades!

As for specifics, the first one looks like it packs a pretty strong punch, but it does look a little too hot to run a laser AMS on as well. Have you had troubles with it overheating? Also I don't think the active probe is doing anything for your SRMs as they don't need to lock on, so you should be able to drop it for more heat sinks.

This SMN-PRIME is my take on the build. I shifted the armor forward and dropped the active probe and AMs in favor of more heat sinks and a medium pulse laser. The pulse lasers run a bit cooler than their ER counterparts and work better with the close in style of the build. I dropped a few tons of ammo as well for more heat sinks, on the logic that ammo doesn't do you any good if you're running too hot to fire it.

The second build makes a bit better use of the active probe at least, as it can counter some ECM at medium range. I don't think TAG provides any bonuses for your own missiles anymore, so you may be able to drop it, but you also get the tag assists on your own damage last I checked so it is free c-bills, haha.

Again, here's my take on it SMN-PRIME You could go for an even more aggressive reduction of the rear armor if you wanted, seeing as it's heavily a second line 'mech. I dropped the probe and TAG to up armor the arms and center torso and for an extra heat sink, but still watch out for how hot that laser AMS can run. LRM20s are slightly more heat efficient versus two LRM10s but they do have a slightly longer cooldown, so you'll have slightly less damage per second but be able to fire more volleys before having to slow down and cool down. I also put on a small laser just to have something in the way of a backup weapon. It won't do a whole lot, but I've seen enough LRM boats get rushed down or stuck with no ammo late into a game to think it's worth the half ton.

Good luck and have fun with the builds, no matter what you decide to do with them, and thanks for sharing them! It's always awesome to see what people come up with.

[martian]

Duke Falcon, on 12 February 2021 - 09:09 AM, said:

Insane builds, not necessary usefull, but mine and created this topic to ask your opinion about them...

First, here are two Summoner builds:
SMN-PRIME
and
SMN-PRIME

What do you think, which one is the better? Currently I use the first but think to change toward the second.

Hope the links work and remain functional, and, thanks your future answers!

1) You first Summoner build is not as good as it could be:

• SRM-6 has a really wide spread of its missiles. Unless you are really sure that you need such broad coverage, it is customary to equip SRM-6 with the Artemis IV Fire Control System.
  
• That lone ER Medium Laser is a bit superfluous. It has a relatively long duration and a different cooldown than the rest of your 'Mech's weapons. I think that you should consider removing that laser from your 'Mech.
  
• That Light AP is actually not too useful on your build. I think that you should consider removing that Light AP from your 'Mech.
  
• That laser AMS can cause heat spikes which is something what you can hardly afford when brawling among enemy 'Mechs.

Summary: I would remove all those secondary pieces of equipment and run that Thor as a pure missile brawler.


2) Your LRM-build is not technically bad, but I find it a bit boring.

It might work in Tier 5 games (where many players struggle with finding a proper cover against LRMs, etc.), but it would be an easy prey for any enemy 'Mech rushing your Summoner into the minimum range of your LRMs.

Honestly, if you really wish to run a LRM-boat, there is point in wasting 5 tons on Jump jets that you will probably rarely use. There are other 'Mechs in the game that can do LRM-boating better.

And of course, the stream-firing nature of Clan LRMs makes it easier for enemy AMS to destroy.

That Laser AMS is probably a bit superfluous: Enemy LRM-boats will probably rain their LRMs on your team's brawlers who are closer to them than on your relatively far LRM-carrying Thor.


Considering both of your 'Mech builds, I would go with the modified first one.

[Duke Falcon]

Thanks for the answers guys!
I use omnis only for FP (for QP I have a KGC) thus the Beagle and the AMS on the builds. Could help a little for teammates.
I admit the current SRM-boat works well, except the heat management when surrendered by enemy lights and mediums and need to fire everything what moves... Hell, two times destroyed myself successfully that way
The laser seemed a good backup albeit not really use it in combat so I may drop it for some heatsinks. Rear armour I use because a shady guy who runs a stealth armour Assassin and killed me about five times before set up some rear armour. Now my mech survives at least one hit on it's back...
As for the LRM-boat, well, I reconsidered and a Maddog may be better for that albeit I dislike that mech.

What buggers me (not sure if this means what I want: rudely bother) is that the JJets are fixed to the chassis. For an omni? Summoner use the exact same legs as the Hellbringer so the Summoner's fixed JJets makes no sense. Those could be removable but understand it were easier to code things that way (and because almost all Summoner variants are jump-capable but that is not a rule). If I could remove those JJs I could mount an LB-20X for a prime and rock... That would be cool...

Originally I used three S-SRM6s on my Summoner - imagine - but that s**ked because the must-be-locked-on-state nature of the weapons. Lock-on usually consumed so much times that half my armour were shredded when I could fire. No Streaks anymore, perhaps on assaults...

EDIT
Two more builts I consider for a second Summoner:
SMN-PRIME
or
SMN-PRIME

Edited by Duke Falcon, 13 February 2021 - 07:51 AM.

[martian]

Duke Falcon, on 13 February 2021 - 07:41 AM, said:

Thanks for the answers guys!
I use omnis only for FP (for QP I have a KGC) thus the Beagle and the AMS on the builds. Could help a little for teammates.
I admit the current SRM-boat works well, except the heat management when surrendered by enemy lights and mediums and need to fire everything what moves... Hell, two times destroyed myself successfully that way
The laser seemed a good backup albeit not really use it in combat so I may drop it for some heatsinks.

Removing some unnecessary equipment in favor of better cooling is often a good idea.

Duke Falcon, on 13 February 2021 - 07:41 AM, said:

Rear armour I use because a shady guy who runs a stealth armour Assassin and killed me about five times before set up some rear armour. Now my mech survives at least one hit on it's back...
As for the LRM-boat, well, I reconsidered and a Maddog may be better for that albeit I dislike that mech.

If you like some 'Mech, then use it.

But if I might suggest something, check Advanced Tactical Missiles. They have much shorter minimum range than LRMs.The closer you are to the enemy 'Mech, the more destructive they are.

Do not forget if the 'Mech (or its Omnipods) has some useful quirks for weapons that you are going to use.

Duke Falcon, on 13 February 2021 - 07:41 AM, said:

What buggers me (not sure if this means what I want: rudely bother) is that the JJets are fixed to the chassis. For an omni? Summoner use the exact same legs as the Hellbringer so the Summoner's fixed JJets makes no sense. Those could be removable but understand it were easier to code things that way (and because almost all Summoner variants are jump-capable but that is not a rule). If I could remove those JJs I could mount an LB-20X for a prime and rock... That would be cool...

Some OmniMechs have so called "fixed equipment", i.e. weapons or other items that are hard-wired and can not be removed. Sometimes it is equipment like Jump Jets, sometimes weapons (lasers, flamers, etc.) and sometimes fixed electronics.

Duke Falcon, on 13 February 2021 - 07:41 AM, said:

Originally I used three S-SRM6s on my Summoner - imagine - but that s**ked because the must-be-locked-on-state nature of the weapons. Lock-on usually consumed so much times that half my armour were shredded when I could fire. No Streaks anymore, perhaps on assaults...

Streak SRMs are sometimes used on more agile medium 'Mechs that are used as Light 'Mechs hunters. But on heavier 'Mech the impossibility to aim those Streaks where you want them to go and the vulnerability to various jamming makes Streaks less than desirable.

With some exceptions I can not recommend running Streak SRMs on Assault-class 'Mechs.

Duke Falcon, on 13 February 2021 - 07:41 AM, said:

EDIT
Two more builts I consider for a second Summoner:
SMN-PRIME

I think that the heat could be a problem, especially on some warmer maps.

Duke Falcon, on 13 February 2021 - 07:41 AM, said:

or
SMN-PRIME

Not enough ammo. And honestly, there are other 'Mech that boat Autocannons better - in this case, Rifleman IIC.

[General Solo]

Summoner B has some quirks usefull for lerm boats

With the set of 8 you get -5% Lrm heat gen
Plus narc bonuses

I run my Summoner B with narc and Quad LERM 10's
My team is my backup weapons

Edit: Give me a minute and I will give you the build and instructions how to play it

Edited by General Solo, 13 February 2021 - 08:27 AM.

[Wildstreak]

I would actually ask why not mix 2 Missile types.

LRMs do less damage under 180 meters.
ATMs do no damage under 120.

Nothing prevents you from mixing some LRMs or ATMs for mid-long range with SRMs or Streak in arms for anti-close range annoyances. I know people like to boat 1 thing but having 2 like this is doable and covers you at all ranges.

I do not think cAP and cLAP work against stealth I believe that was a big difference between it and IS Beagle.

[General Solo]

Here is the build

https://mwo.smurfy-n...3c56b19f7058977

For skill choose

Missile and Velocity Skills in the firepower tree
Radar derp to break radar lock after you pop narc
And narc skills in the Auxilliary Tree,
and maybe some jump skills if you need
The rest of the skills you can choose what you need

How to play it.
Narc and Lerms go great together.
Jump narc and fall back behind cover
Lerm behind cover indirect style till the target is disabled/down
Repeat




Avoid LOS except when narcing
Use the lrms unique strength (indirect Fire) once the target is narced
Enjoy

Wildstreak, on 13 February 2021 - 08:18 AM, said:

I would actually ask why not mix 2 Missile types.

LRMs do less damage under 180 meters.
ATMs do no damage under 120.

Nothing prevents you from mixing some LRMs or ATMs for mid-long range with SRMs or Streak in arms for anti-close range annoyances. I know people like to boat 1 thing but having 2 like this is doable and covers you at all ranges.

I do not think cAP and cLAP work against stealth I believe that was a big difference between it and IS Beagle.

You can mix but having all your weapons effective at the same range is best.

With two types of missiles you may only fire half of them, so 50% of your payload is not being used often, its dead weight so to speak

Its why boating one type of weapon is generally the meta

Edit: narc works great on stealth and ecm mechs

Ecm mechs are alway my first target where possible , to clear the wae, for now they must fight in the shade.

On stationary targets you can hit them almost 700m away with narc...they usually don't expect that

Edited by General Solo, 13 February 2021 - 08:53 AM.

[ImperialKnight]

SRM Brawl Build
https://mech.nav-alp...6121d_SMN-PRIME

Forget LRMs, take ATMs Build
https://mech.nav-alp...14674_SMN-PRIME

[Aidan Crenshaw]

Wildstreak, on 13 February 2021 - 08:18 AM, said:

I do not think cAP and cLAP work against stealth I believe that was a big difference between it and IS Beagle.

CAP and CLAP work perfectly fine against ECM just like BAP. No active probe works against active stealth armour.

OP, why in the nine hells would you strip armour off your Center Torso?

Edited by Aidan Crenshaw, 13 February 2021 - 09:50 AM.

[CFC Conky]

Hi Duke Falcon,

You can get away with just about any build in T5. As long as you're having fun, go for it. As you rise in Tiers builds begin to matter more if you want to stay effective. I think it's fine to experiment with different builds, the meta will always be there if you need it.

Good hunting,
CFC Conky

[Duke Falcon]

First, once again thanks for the replies, answers everybody! Learned much from them.
Now bought a Hellfire I refit to carry two ATM-6s, a ER-PPC and four SP-lasers. Seems nice, but ATMs are a hell to fire sometimes as they seemingly works randomly (I mean they sometimes fly over obstacles with a fine arc while sometimes rush straight forth like stupidified SRMs). But nice, like it, seems good on the side of the SRM-boat Summoner.
Just wonder, a Rifleman 2c with six autocannons (I see two such during FP) is how effective? I mean they have the damage of 12 what is not much but sustained fire is another thing...
And which light mech is better as a recon\tagger: Mist lynx or the Arctic cheetah? Both offered as trial mechs now (albeit strange loadouts) and I tried both but not see any real differences. Both dash like hell, near impossible to controll on rougher terrain...

Quote

OP, why in the nine hells would you strip armour off your Center Torso?

I originally pursued clan-like style of direct face-to-face combat. That need many armour on front, and some extra equipments need some freed tonnages. But everyone I met so far in-game fights hit-and-run or shoot-and-hide style, no direct confrontation, no honourable face-to-face duels... Perhaps if I announce Zellbringen directly one may accept... Mayhaps but I think the answer instead: They would come alltogether...

Edited by Duke Falcon, 16 February 2021 - 02:45 AM.

[Wildstreak]

General Solo, on 13 February 2021 - 08:47 AM, said:

You can mix but having all your weapons effective at the same range is best.

With two types of missiles you may only fire half of them, so 50% of your payload is not being used often, its dead weight so to speak

Its why boating one type of weapon is generally the meta

Mmmm, not always and with Clan Missiles, LRMs do less but still some damage within 180 meters.
You can also mix SRMs and SSRMs up to 7 total for no GH.

Duke Falcon, on 16 February 2021 - 02:41 AM, said:

Now bought a Hellfire I refit to carry two ATM-6s, a ER-PPC and four SP-lasers. Seems nice, but ATMs are a hell to fire sometimes as they seemingly works randomly (I mean they sometimes fly over obstacles with a fine arc while sometimes rush straight forth like stupidified SRMs). But nice, like it, seems good on the side of the SRM-boat Summoner.

Depends which one. I bought the Hellfire-B and tried with all Missile types, seems similar but I always used TAG in the LT to help LRMs and ATMs. If you got the A or C, no torso Energy spot makes self-tagging harder or with the A, just try a big Ballistic and no Missiles.

Duke Falcon, on 16 February 2021 - 02:41 AM, said:

I originally pursued clan-like style of direct face-to-face combat. That need many armour on front, and some extra equipments need some freed tonnages. But everyone I met so far in-game fights hit-and-run or shoot-and-hide style, no direct confrontation, no honourable face-to-face duels... Perhaps if I announce Zellbringen directly one may accept... Mayhaps but I think the answer instead: They would come alltogether...

If you are looking for Brawl close range fighting, one thing you have to do is depending on map, find a spot under cover and sit for several minutes doing nothing since you have no range to contribute to the early duel. Seems to suck but once someone group makes moves, your time comes so just chill and relax. You can try to do a little intel gathering / spotting for your team especially where opposing Assaults / Heavies are and watch for enemy Lights who try to backstab.

[Guardian Soul]

Duke Falcon, on 16 February 2021 - 02:41 AM, said:

I mean they sometimes fly over obstacles with a fine arc while sometimes rush straight forth like stupidified SRMs

I'd have to double check, but I'm pretty sure ATMs work like LRMs. If you don't have line of sight to the target they use a high firing path but if you have direct line of sight they use a much flatter trajectory and go straight(er) towards the target.

Duke Falcon, on 16 February 2021 - 02:41 AM, said:

Just wonder, a Rifleman 2c with six autocannons (I see two such during FP) is how effective? I mean they have the damage of 12 what is not much but sustained fire is another thing...

I haven't played with the Rifleman IIC yet but I've been shot at enough by them to know they're pretty solid dakka. Let me look at some builds and get back to you.

Duke Falcon, on 16 February 2021 - 02:41 AM, said:

I originally pursued clan-like style of direct face-to-face combat. That need many armour on front, and some extra equipments need some freed tonnages. But everyone I met so far in-game fights hit-and-run or shoot-and-hide style, no direct confrontation, no honourable face-to-face duels... Perhaps if I announce Zellbringen directly one may accept... Mayhaps but I think the answer instead: They would come alltogether...

As much as I want to make fun of your weird clanner ways, I respect the desire for a good one on one brawl. Wildstreak gave some good advice, brawls absolutely happen, but you need to be super careful with your positioning and pick your time to push very carefully. Matches always get to close in fighting, so wait for the push to happen and take a few trades when your allies poke out from cover so you're not the only one visible. There's no shame (at least to an IS pilot) in hanging back under cover for the first ranged exchanges in the fight and waiting for one side or the other to push in. Map knowledge is your best friend there, learn where the pushes happen and wait near them. And of course remember, if you don't have the range for it don't take any trades, tempting though it is.

Hopefully I'll get to go against you out in a match in my Marauder, we'll have a good brawl.

Edited by Guardian Soul, 16 February 2021 - 07:18 PM.

[Aidan Crenshaw]

Guardian Soul, on 16 February 2021 - 07:18 PM, said:

I'd have to double check, but I'm pretty sure ATMs work like LRMs. If you don't have line of sight to the target they use a high firing path but if you have direct line of sight they use a much flatter trajectory and go straight(er) towards the target.

You can IDF ATMs, but their trajectory is always flatter than IDF LRMs.

[Duke Falcon]

Hero mech's omnipods could be bought separately? I mean if I buy a Mad dog C could I bought the torso omnipods of the Bandit variant for it? That could make a mad "Dakka" MDG variant what may not trully usefull but surprising and funny...

[Dirt Devil1]

No you can't buy clan hero omnipods separately.
Even if you own the hero mech

Edited by Dirt Devil1, 18 February 2021 - 04:47 PM.

[Duke Falcon]

Now I finally have my invasion deck with four heavy mechs filled: Summoner, Hellfire, Hellbringer and Mad dog.
The Mad dog is pretty a prime except stripped lasers, boosted LRM ammo and heatsinks and give it a TAG + ER-PPC. A supporter for siege and domination I try to use from hilltops to have direct LOS to lock the missiles properly.
The Hellbringer is a modified prime: 2x UAC2, 1x LLaser and 1x LRM-15 with AMS + BAP + ECM. A typical long-range direct brawler and a partly DAKKA-build. Not insanely strong but if find a proper, elevated place just decide which one enemy would hit first then randomly rotate among them. Cause pretty much confusion, yeah...
Hellfire is an all-around guy. PPC, ATM and small Plasers, good for nothing but adequate for everything. Usually second drop when things trully start to form and indicate which mech would be the better next.
Summoner is tricky. Two PPC build but arm-mounted. You know how funny to use it? Everyone targets my well-armoured center torso thinking there my PPC are. No, friends! Surprise and terror...

Also exploited the current sale off and bought two free mechbays. Next target is either a Hatamoto-chi or a Centurion. I still use my KGC in QP but since I were forced to participate IS-IS FP I decided to make the second invasion deck an IS deck. With the Kingcrab and the Hatamoto it would have two assaults what seems cool albeit somehow strange. With the Centurion the deck would be 230 tons and if I am correct that lefts 35 tons what could be filled a Light only (Panther is my first guess) but that is sooooooo far away now. Need CBills first...

[Aidan Crenshaw]

I think you're gonna have a hard time going into Faction Play with those builds. Always keep in mind, these are not the Tier 4 and 5 players you are used to in Quickplay. You're rather likely to run into organized drops of veteran players who will not be impressed by your hodge-podge builds. Your thoughts on the Summoner's arm mounted PPCs has a major flaw. If experienced players target your side-torsi, expecting your PPCs there and destroy them in the process, you lose the attached arm as well. Also, using the low-dragging arm mounts, you have to expose nearly your whole mech, whereas with the torso mounts, you bascally only have to expose just a tad more than your cockpit line, thus making sure you don't get hit in the first place.
Based on your available mechs, I'd suggest the following loadouts:
HBR-PRIME
SMN-M
MDD-PRIME
If you find yourself heating up too much with the LRMs, switch the MPLs to ER MLs and add more Heatsinks
Since you didn't specify what Hellfire you run, I can't assess what would be "optimal" to run on that.
Would probably go like that.
HLF-1

[Duke Falcon]

Aidan Crenshaw, on 28 February 2021 - 10:59 PM, said:

I think you're gonna have a hard time going into Faction Play with those builds. Always keep in mind, these are not the Tier 4 and 5 players you are used to in Quickplay. You're rather likely to run into organized drops of veteran players who will not be impressed by your hodge-podge builds. Your thoughts on the Summoner's arm mounted PPCs has a major flaw. If experienced players target your side-torsi, expecting your PPCs there and destroy them in the process, you lose the attached arm as well. Also, using the low-dragging arm mounts, you have to expose nearly your whole mech, whereas with the torso mounts, you bascally only have to expose just a tad more than your cockpit line, thus making sure you don't get hit in the first place.
Based on your available mechs, I'd suggest the following loadouts:
HBR-PRIME
SMN-M
MDD-PRIME
If you find yourself heating up too much with the LRMs, switch the MPLs to ER MLs and add more Heatsinks
Since you didn't specify what Hellfire you run, I can't assess what would be "optimal" to run on that.
Would probably go like that.
HLF-1

The loadouts I always see on these mechs. None of them is fun to use. None of them has style to say at least. Unimaginative I think, most pale. I make these built to make things more versatile AND because I like to pilot these monsters (except the MDG but it was a necessity since I needed a supporter fit in a 60 tons free frame).
I not really love hill-humping style, tried it, worked like a dream even for such a starter T5er like me, and that is the trouble: It is a trap. One trades honour and pride for extra damage dealt and became a repetitive machine often unable to even react "fresh" situations. I killed at least three times hill-humpers by overrun them and they just stand idle. I think they not knew what to really do if they could not hide. I admit, there are exceptations whom could adapt, like Yondu (I respect him since half my deaths in game caused by him)...
I tried to be supportive my launcher builds but stay behind is useless. Locking missiles are near impossible and locked targets vanish from radar without NARC or DLOS. I prefer to stand out, spot, rush forth then fall back if possible. Or shot a few from a good spot where I know they see me before try to fall back. I want them to see me since I want to face them not hide. Hide is not honourable at all. If I got shot, well, I tried and faced the opponent at least. THAT is more what many could say when shooting peak-f**king with their repetitive, mass-copied laserboats.
Sorry if I were offensive or disrespectful. I could not digest that it finally became a 80% camper-game. Not an Unreal Tournament... MWO could be a good PvP mech-simulation game but ended up as an arcade-shoot-em-up. Still play since sometimes I have real good fun. And my scrappy non-meta-monsta builds earns me about 300-400 damage per game and 1 killing blow at least. Not something shamefull from a T5 against higher tier team-players. Maybe I am insane to cling honour in a game (since in RL people not even know what this word, HONOUR, means), but that is me. Anyone could seek me in QP or FP and shot me down en-mass, bah, I still cling my own ways of fight. Perhaps that would exceed me from the mass once and make an example to follow. Chance are dim but sometimes things happen to more weird than we expect.
Well...
Something else: Hatamoto or Victor? I like both but the Hatamoto got a nicer shape. Victor however could mix weapons insanely and jump-capable what means extra space to free for stuffs. Also think about to forfeit my plan to buy a Centurion in favour of a Vindicator (ER-PPC + LRM-20 built pops in my mind)...