54 replies to this topic

[D A T A]

Spawn camp is a problem in FP.
Personally i would redesign FP spawns so all 3 spawns are in 1 place so:
-respawning pilots help each other
-dropships stack together and help more
And i would add laser turrets in the internal side of the spawns, to make spawn camp virtually impossible.

BUT

we know that PGI wants us to focus on QP improvement only atm, so this can not be done. PGI can accept only minor tweaks on fp atm like conquest ticket change.

MY CHEAP SOLUTION to mitigate the problem with 1click and zero programming effort.

1) increase the timer that determines how long the dropships hang over the spawn after you dropped to 15 secs, so they shoot more at spawn campers

2) add a laser cooldown quirk to dropships so they shoot more lasers

Your thoughts?

[Nightbird]

Nothing against your solutions. An explanation for why things are the way they are: When dropships were more powerful in the past, some groups when up against a good team would simply camp spawn. If you push them to try to get a fight, they would intentionally eject one person to bring down a "dropship consumable", and if you didn't push them you had to wait for the entire 25 or 30 mins for the match to end.

I'm in favor of an early victory condition for all modes. If the kill difference is ever >=20, the match ends. For example, if the kill count is 24 to 4 the match ends. Or 30-10 or 35-15. Drop zone farming only happens with lopsided teams, which would trigger the early end, and this prevents/discourages spawn camping.

If the other side really doesn't want to fight, then they can eject 20 times and end the match at 20-0.

[katoult]

Simpler solution which also would be more than a XML change:

- Randomize which of the three spawns the dropship drops the respawning players at.
- Group players dropping within the same respawn cycle to the same dropship.
- Prioritize a spawn point for next respawn that has the least enemy players within a given range (reuse Long Tom code).

[feeWAIVER]

1. They need to get their new map guy on the case.
2a. They need to adjust the out of bounds rules to prevent you from entering enemy drop zones.
2b. If out of bounds is too hard, then beefing up drop ships should work.
3. They need to Long Tom people who stay in their own drop zone too long.

The goal should be to prevent spawn camping from either side. Offensively or Defensively.

Edited by feeWAIVER, 16 April 2021 - 12:00 PM.

[Absaint]

Some good ideas here

[justcallme A S H]

Devil's advocate here... Even if you;

• Altered DZs -or-
  
• Moved closer together.
  
• Dropship hangs around longer.
  
• Out of Bounds.
  
• Waited to drop 4 mechs together (potentially a very bad idea in conquest where time/reinforcement can be critially important).
  
• Beefing dropships.

Players will just find a way around it like;

• Just wait the dropship out.
  
• Stand 500m, 700m back instead of 200m. (thus camping isn't changed at all).
  
• Ensure focus on 2-3 corners for 4 to come out etc etc. (for when a group of 4 spawn).
  
• Stay in the spawn (if you beef up dropships, that legit is a thing).

Say you then go and bring a Forfeit vs Scoreboard mechanic into the game. You can also bet that as soon as someone see's "Oh it's EVIL" or "Oh its a pre-made stack" - "we don't wanna play", the opposing team will just eject 2 waves to end the match. So even a mechanic like that has some glaring vulnerabilities that people will abuse without question which will then flow onto a manner of other issues no doubt.

I just can't see a solution being as simple as people think. Every thing you do has an equally problematic effect or a counter/adapation on the other side.

[Nightbird]

Agreed, number 1 feature I want for FP is a forced tonnage handicap. The MM looks at the strength of both teams, whether it's siege (attack versus defender) and enforces a tonnage handicap on the stronger team. If one team has 10 WLR average and the other has 1 WLR, then the stronger team only gets 160 tons.

But this requires coding, oh well. Drop ready, back to farming.

[feeWAIVER]

justcallme A S H, on 16 April 2021 - 03:31 PM, said:

Devil's advocate here... Even if you;

• Altered DZs -or-
  
• Moved closer together.
  
• Dropship hangs around longer.
  
• Out of Bounds.
  
• Waited to drop 4 mechs together (potentially a very bad idea in conquest where time/reinforcement can be critially important).
  
• Beefing dropships.

Players will just find a way around it like;

• Just wait the dropship out.
  
• Stand 500m, 700m back instead of 200m. (thus camping isn't changed at all).
  
• Ensure focus on 2-3 corners for 4 to come out etc etc. (for when a group of 4 spawn).
  
• Stay in the spawn (if you beef up dropships, that legit is a thing).

Say you then go and bring a Forfeit vs Scoreboard mechanic into the game. You can also bet that as soon as someone see's "Oh it's EVIL" or "Oh its a pre-made stack" - "we don't wanna play", the opposing team will just eject 2 waves to end the match. So even a mechanic like that has some glaring vulnerabilities that people will abuse without question which will then flow onto a manner of other issues no doubt.

I just can't see a solution being as simple as people think. Every thing you do has an equally problematic effect or a counter/adapation on the other side.

This is all preferable to getting alpha'd by 6 mechs before your feet even hit the ground.
I think FP is the best game mode, but the spawn camping aspect is the most glaring flaw that certainly turns a lot of people off from even playing it.

[justcallme A S H]

So instead of when they hit the ground it happens 10s later. Just like it did pre-dropship nerf.

Spawn camping was worse then (by teams) and made gameplay even worse. I can't see how thats remotely preferrable.

[D A T A]

Not instadead as soon as you touch the floor is always going to be better.
Peek a boo from spawn walls is always going to be better than "boom instadead".

With the resources pgi has for FP, i think we can ask nothing more, nothing less than what i suggested

Again, for now pgi said they are not doing more than a 1 button change for FP until we fix qp and game balance

[D A T A]

Obviously full solution is to design spawns like hellebore springs attacker spawn, with turrets, walls and no nearby mountains to shoot inside the spawn and then remove skirmish from rotation, otherwise people would just sit in spawn.

But that needs map redesign

[Brauer]

If a team is getting smashed hard enough that they're getting spawn-camped I just think the match should end asap. Beefing up dropships, etc won't make the matchups any better so I don't think it matters if a mech is dead when it's feet hit the ground or five seconds later.

[feeWAIVER]

Brauer, on 16 April 2021 - 07:07 PM, said:

If a team is getting smashed hard enough that they're getting spawn-camped I just think the match should end asap. Beefing up dropships, etc won't make the matchups any better so I don't think it matters if a mech is dead when it's feet hit the ground or five seconds later.

That's fair, but you don't need to smash the whole team. You just need to catch 1 or 2 guys to remove 4 or 8 enemy mechs from the roster.

[justcallme A S H]

In some games that can actually play a tactical advantage if you're not doing so well on kills. Go chop the respawns and claw back some leaderboard advantage. Tie up reinforcements etc etc. Definitely seen it done and have had to do it a few times.

[D A T A]

justcallme A S H, on 16 April 2021 - 07:27 PM, said:

In some games that can actually play a tactical advantage if you're not doing so well on kills. Go chop the respawns and claw back some leaderboard advantage. Tie up reinforcements etc etc. Definitely seen it done and have had to do it a few times.

And do you think it is right to let people do that?
I think people alt+f4 and quit a game when they die even before theytake control of their mech....say...if i was a pug and such thing happened to me, i would not play fp anymore

[RJF Volkodav]

Just make the shuttle one-shooting mechs. No need to have shuttle hopping around longer to avoid abusing its power. It would be so much fun. I would suggest getting longtom back too, but that would not be supported by most of the players . We need something new in this game. The good is new. If its just an xml changes why not to give them a try, they could be easily rolled back if they wont work as intended .

Edited by RJF Volkodav, 17 April 2021 - 02:39 AM.

[katoult]

justcallme A S H, on 16 April 2021 - 03:31 PM, said:

• Waited to drop 4 mechs together (potentially a very bad idea in conquest where time/reinforcement can be critially important).

Given the respawn occurs in cycles anyway (45 seconds? something like that, never really look at the timer): If multiple players respawn in the same cycle just group those together without additional wait times and drop them in the same random spawn instead of whatever their initial spawn was.

And yes, of course one can adjust spawn camping technique to that. But it's a relatively major complication and gives the spawning players something of a fighting chance.

D A T A, on 16 April 2021 - 05:51 PM, said:

Obviously full solution is to design spawns like hellebore springs attacker spawn, with turrets, walls and no nearby mountains to shoot inside the spawn and then remove skirmish from rotation, otherwise people would just sit in spawn.

But that needs map redesign

Not much map redesign. Just park a grounded dropship on the rim there. Presto, instant wall and turret. Even more, a turret that isn't removed with one or two alphas. Doesn't work for most maps, but for Hellebore Springs attacker spawn it'd be a pretty straightforward solution.

[D A T A]

katoult, on 17 April 2021 - 03:05 AM, said:

Given the respawn occurs in cycles anyway (45 seconds? something like that, never really look at the timer): If multiple players respawn in the same cycle just group those together without additional wait times and drop them in the same random spawn instead of whatever their initial spawn was.

And yes, of course one can adjust spawn camping technique to that. But it's a relatively major complication and gives the spawning players something of a fighting chance.


Not much map redesign. Just park a grounded dropship on the rim there. Presto, instant wall and turret. Even more, a turret that isn't removed with one or two alphas. Doesn't work for most maps, but for Hellebore Springs attacker spawn it'd be a pretty straightforward solution.

as i said multiple times, PGI already told us they are not putting their map designer on FP. Atm PGI is focused on QP only unless it's a 1 button change

RJF Volkodav, on 17 April 2021 - 02:35 AM, said:

Just make the shuttle one-shooting mechs. No need to have shuttle hopping around longer to avoid abusing its power. It would be so much fun. I would suggest getting longtom back too, but that would not be supported by most of the players . We need something new in this game. The good is new. If its just an xml changes why not to give them a try, they could be easily rolled back if they wont work as intended .

long tom was the most ret**ded idea in the history of MWO, there is no way long tom will come back

Edited by D A T A, 17 April 2021 - 04:30 AM.

[RJF Volkodav]

D A T A, on 17 April 2021 - 04:31 AM, said:

long tom was the most ret**ded idea in the history of MWO, there is no way long tom will come back

But it was quite fun . They could bring it back for an event mb.

[AnAnachronismAlive]

MMmh, would the addition of a tactial placement of pre-set dropzones via drop-command (some kind of a hot-drop mechanic that can place all mechs closer to the objective - even into another lane) help to make the outcome of a match a little less likely or less favourable for the defending side?

On the other hand ... manually activating pre-set drop spots on the battlegrid is likely gonna be some coding-hassle, despite placing spawn points itself not being nuclear physics I'd assume. *shrug*

In the end the maps need some overhaul and allow for more cheeky play for specialised mechs. Adressing the game modes itself is likely out of scope atm.

Edited by AnAnachronismAlive, 17 April 2021 - 05:54 AM.