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Override Not Working As Intended?


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#1 Howitzer 108

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Posted 16 April 2021 - 09:12 AM

Just had this happen, had override engaged and suddenly a torso pops on LFE and I shutdown. Is this some new bug?

#2 LordNothing

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Posted 19 April 2021 - 07:54 PM

heat spike. there has been considerable debate as to whether this is a bug or a feature.

#3 The Basilisk

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Posted 29 April 2021 - 12:20 AM

View PostLordNothing, on 19 April 2021 - 07:54 PM, said:

heat spike. there has been considerable debate as to whether this is a bug or a feature.


It actually is not a bug and neither a direct feature.
It is simple math. When you loose parts of your engine, either in sidetorso of a clan xl equiped mech or with a light FE of an IS Mech you loose parts of your engine heatsinks.
Since heatsinks are part of your heat reservoir less sinks will decrease your potential reservoir size and you will overheat if your heat was already higher than your reservoir.

Edit: plz do not ask me for a formular.

Edited by The Basilisk, 29 April 2021 - 12:21 AM.


#4 LordNothing

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Posted 30 April 2021 - 01:20 PM

View PostThe Basilisk, on 29 April 2021 - 12:20 AM, said:


It actually is not a bug and neither a direct feature.
It is simple math. When you loose parts of your engine, either in sidetorso of a clan xl equiped mech or with a light FE of an IS Mech you loose parts of your engine heatsinks.
Since heatsinks are part of your heat reservoir less sinks will decrease your potential reservoir size and you will overheat if your heat was already higher than your reservoir.

Edit: plz do not ask me for a formular.


as someone who understands basic thermodynamics, its a question of what happens to the heat that was in the parts of the mech that fell off. way its implemented is it seems to dump that heat back into the engine rather than stay with the parts that fell off. the heat is stored in the thermal mass of the sink, the engine, and especially the working fluid used as the heat transfer medium. if that hot coolant leaks all over the ground the heat should go with it. if it leaks all over the engine, then unplanned heat transfer is a lot less efficient than planned heat transfer, and should not be as severe as it is. if the coolant evaporates then you get cooling from phase change.

now we can step into the world of game mechanics for a bit, sinks have both capacity and dissipation rate. if you lose a portion of your heat capacity, you should also lose a proportional amount of heat stored in that capacity. say i have 10 glasses of water with the water representing the heat (or rather the thermal mass of the coolant). id i take my .22 and shoot one of the glasses, the water does not magically go into the others. most of it winds up on the ground. a few drops may splash their way into one of the glasses, or get on the outside of the glasses. but the heat for all intents and purposes is removed. that should be the behavior of the mechanic.

Edited by LordNothing, 30 April 2021 - 01:20 PM.


#5 Tarl Cabot

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Posted 30 April 2021 - 11:50 PM

Tis in the details on how PGI used lore as the flavor but in their own way. Those two engine slots, when the ST is destroyed , ie IS depleted to zero, simply represents damage to the engine shielding itself as two engine crit hits. There is a world of difference between being destroyed/disabled and being completely removed. Thus, in MWO those two engine crits represents an X-amount of heat dissipation/capacity being made inoperable. Potentially most of the coolant in that specific location may not have actually been lost, only the mechanism which allowed it to do its job would no longer be working.

Now, with that said, per BT rules the flavor PGI used, each engine crit would generate +5 heat/round (10secs/round). Two engine crits would generate +10 heat/round. For SHS mechs 2 engine crits had equated to a max of 10 SHS, or for DHS mechs to 5 DHS. On the actual paperdoll, both original 10 HS + additional engine HS and external HS were represented/notated, but only external HS which were received a crit hit were checked off, ie 1 cDHS could be crit 2x, 1st crit disabled it and the 2nd destroyed it, which only mattered in a MW scenario for repair or replacement close. Just to include that in BT, that Heatscale (heat bar) had multiple levels (4x) where rolls had to be done to check if the mech would be shut down or not, with the max cap being a hard shutdown.

This is were PGI differentiated from BT rules/lore, since MWO is real time action instead of being conducted in BT 10 second per turn, or even Solaris' 2.5secs per turn. Just as a reminder, when Clans were introduced to MWO, the destruction of the ST did not generate ANY negative effects for those two engine crits for several months. Clan introduction in June 2014 was PGI 2nd major cash cow, the 1st being Founders which helped PGI get off the ground floor 2 years prior. PGI did not add the first non-automatic lethal 2 engine crit w/destroyed ST until Oct 2014 as 20% heat loss penalty (originally from the bottom of the pool). The mobility penalty was added Dec 2015. PGI updated that heat penalty from 20% to 40% end of Jan 2017. LFE were added July 2017. Then in Dec 2018 patch PGI changed how those 2 engine crits (cXL-LFE) affect a mech during the gameplay by removing capacity portion from the top instead of the bottom of the heat bar.

And PGI have been at a point where they could make changes towards engine crits (flag when IS points reaches zero), by pulling isXL into the fold with the LFE/cXL with non-instant lethal consequence while differentiate each one. imho, there isnt a reason to stick with BT game/lore rules with max engine crit rules since MWO does not have actual engine crits except for when a ST is destroyed. When the Skill Tree went live w/other changes, Chris had posted that he would be reviewing bringing isXL more in line with the LFE/cXL but that never occurred.

Again, since PGI is only utilizing a portion of the engine crit rules, imho there isnt a reason for them to use it only as a reference/flavor instead, particular since hits/miss for shots and hit location is not being determined by the roll of dice.


isXL 40%-50% Engine loss heat capacity / x% loss heat dissipation / 25%+ movement
cXL 25-30% Engine loss heat capacity/ x% loss heat dissipation / 20% movement
LFE 15-20% Engine loss heat capacity/ x% loss heat dissipation / 15% movement (more durable than isXL. Originally created by Wolf's Dragoons to replace destroyed cXL in their Clan mechs and enough difference between it and isXL).

Everything else is space magic Posted Image

Wait, found what I was looking for.

https://mwomercs.com...y-an-education/



Quote

snip

Power is extracted in two ways - the first is called "magnetohydrodynamics" or MHD. The shorter and mostly correct description of this process is that the plasma is like a dynamo, generating electrical currents in conductor loops that wrap around the reactor. MHD directly converts heat from the fuel into electricity, and because this process operates at extreme temperatures it can exceed 90 percent efficiency in converting heat energy into electrical energy.

The second way of generating power is purely secondary and is called regenerative cooling. Regenerative cooling uses waste heat to generate power. Usually this is done with a closed-cycle gas or steam turbine. In a small way this is a part of the 'Mech's cooling system, even though this is not a part of the Heat sink system proper - these are the so-called "free" Heat sinks in the engine, and in configuration they are nothing like the other Heat Sinks mounted in the 'Mech elsewhere.

While the regenerative cooling machinery is very different from purpose built Heat sinks, it still benefits from the materials and technology advances that have made "double strength" Heat sinks possible. The regenerative cooling system adds negligible volume to the engine, because it uses the existing plumbing of the engine's cooling system. It would be quite useful if all the waste heat from an engine could be soaked up by these so-called "integral Heat sinks," but practical limitations mean only so much energy can be extracted from this lower-quality energy source (bigger engines make more waste heat and can have larger regenerative cooling systems)... most 'Mechs require the use of some conventional Heat Sinks placed elsewhere to handle the leftover heat that is not converted into energy.

It is important to note that excessive heat from combat or other conditions can cause the magnetic fields that contain the plasma to be disrupted. If this happens there is the potential for an uncontrolled fusion reaction, which could irradiate the insides of the BattleMech and expose the MechWarrior to lethal levels of radiation.

snip

Standard fusion engines use a very dense ceramic for shielding, usually tungsten carbide reinforced with short boron ceramic fibers mixed into the carbide. This shielding is actually thick enough to survive battle damage and act as a heat sink (thermal mass) that can disperse the heat from the plasma should the magnetic containment fields fail and allow the plasma ball to expand and touch the walls.

7.3 Engine Cooling Systems
Fusion engines also have their own integral cooling system in addition to their regenerative cooling systems. These other cooling systems are separate from the rest of the 'Mech's Heat sink network. Liquid nitrogen jackets are used over key components, which allows minimal engine operations without having to activate the external Heat Sink systems. Any more use of the engine requires the larger cooling capacity of the main Heat sink and regenerative systems.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 01 May 2021 - 09:56 AM.


#6 Aidan Crenshaw

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Posted 03 May 2021 - 12:43 AM

Guys, OP was not asking about the heatspike. Rather about how he shut down while having override engaged.

#7 The Basilisk

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Posted 03 May 2021 - 06:38 AM

View PostAidan Crenshaw, on 03 May 2021 - 12:43 AM, said:

Guys, OP was not asking about the heatspike. Rather about how he shut down while having override engaged.


Well....missed that.
Thats a bug never saw this happen though.

#8 LordNothing

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Posted 03 May 2021 - 07:38 PM

i often hit override to abort a shut down and forget that i did so. so later on in the match when i need the override on, i actually turn it off on accident and shut down at a very bad time.

on one hand i kind of wish the game would detect when you do this and turn it off automatically once the heat drops below the threshold. on the other hand there are situations where this is desirable behavior and i just need to be less stupid.

Edited by LordNothing, 03 May 2021 - 07:41 PM.


#9 Ekson Valdez

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Posted 04 May 2021 - 10:42 PM



Seems like this was posted in the wrong sub-forum. So I've moved the thread to General Discussion.



#10 justcallme A S H

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Posted 05 May 2021 - 12:33 AM

Never seen a mech with override on - shutdown.

Video recording of this would definitely be required to debunk as I ain't ever seen it.
The only time is when I think I've pressed it and I actually forgot.

#11 Aidan Crenshaw

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Posted 05 May 2021 - 12:51 AM

View Postjustcallme A S H, on 05 May 2021 - 12:33 AM, said:

Never seen a mech with override on - shutdown.

Video recording of this would definitely be required to debunk as I ain't ever seen it.
The only time is when I think I've pressed it and I actually forgot.


This. It's funny how I'm so used to ignore the glaring giant "Override Shutdown" text in the middle of my screen, that sometimes I don't notice it when it's not there... Posted Image

#12 justcallme A S H

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Posted 05 May 2021 - 12:53 AM

That is exactly what happens to me lol Posted Image

#13 The6thMessenger

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Posted 05 May 2021 - 01:30 AM

View PostAidan Crenshaw, on 05 May 2021 - 12:51 AM, said:

This. It's funny how I'm so used to ignore the glaring giant "Override Shutdown" text in the middle of my screen, that sometimes I don't notice it when it's not there... Posted Image



It gets buried by like Incoming Missiles or Weapon Jam IIRC.

#14 Gagis

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Posted 05 May 2021 - 02:05 AM

I strongly wish those warnings were less intrusive.

#15 Brizna

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Posted 05 May 2021 - 02:13 AM

I also never witnessed a shut down with override engaged (disregarding permanent shut-downs due to engine melt down, of course :P ) So I am going to go with the supposition that OP thought he had override engaged but he didn't, be that because he was just mistaken about it being engaged or some server client conflict due to packet loss and severe lag.

#16 RickySpanish

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Posted 05 May 2021 - 03:28 AM

OP if you had it engaged but then shut yourself down manually, the override disengages. Might you have shut down earlier and forgotten to re-engage override?

#17 LordNothing

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Posted 08 May 2021 - 06:59 PM

View Postjustcallme A S H, on 05 May 2021 - 12:33 AM, said:

The only time is when I think I've pressed it and I actually forgot.


glad to know pros make this mistake too sometimes.

#18 LordNothing

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Posted 08 May 2021 - 07:02 PM

View PostAidan Crenshaw, on 05 May 2021 - 12:51 AM, said:

This. It's funny how I'm so used to ignore the glaring giant "Override Shutdown" text in the middle of my screen, that sometimes I don't notice it when it's not there... Posted Image


an audible warning would be nice when your heat is close to the threshold, which of course would be different if you had override on. game needs a sound overhaul anyway.

View PostGagis, on 05 May 2021 - 02:05 AM, said:

I strongly wish those warnings were less intrusive.


an audible would mean you could shrink that warning down to use less screen space.

Edited by LordNothing, 08 May 2021 - 07:04 PM.






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