79 replies to this topic

[1453 R]

In a recent video he put out concerning the MWO June Update, Cauldron administrator Bear_cl4w asked people not to continually parrot "this is broken, fix it!" on issues which are...well, broken. He asked for people to propose their own ideas, throw out possibilities for solutions, as that is more useful/actionable than simply "it's broken!" He is, in some ways, correct. While it is not our job to offer solutions, nor is it really anything people want to consult The Forum Hivemind over (the forum's collective idea of what constitutes balance is...shaky, at best), it can be useful to hear new ideas proposed, things one might not have thought of, and which might spark one's own creativity. In that vein, I'm hoping to propose an idea for Streak missiles that may not have been brought up before. If it has, my apologies, and please forgive the intrusion in your day.

Streak missiles are a weapon me and my little group of buddies employ quite frequently as a deterrent against over-adventurous light or smaller medium 'Mechs. Each of us possesses Streak-centric 'Mechs that we employ whenever we get tired of butt-gnawers chewing on our keisters or bringing down our assault pilots before they can (fail to) accomplish anything. We've developed doctrine, of sorts, for Streak launchers which centers on our more-or-less standardized archetypical Streak carrier, the "Piss off, Piranhas!" ACW-2. Each of us has one of these, with minor variations (the displayed 'Mech is my own take), though they each employ the same strategy - close escort of larger, more valuable machines. These scatter missile 'Mechs do not range more than a grid square or two from the largest concentration of fatness on our team, actively watching for light 'Mech contacts ranging around the fringes of a fight to dive on and burn down. Only in the later stages of the game do these 'Mechs start taking on heavier prey, ideally weakened by the fatties we've been keeping free of anklebiters, because these things are useless against fresh heavies or assaults, and honestly not fantastic even against other mediums.

I bring this up primarily to frame my notion, as these Arctic Wolves are the best we've been able to reliably do with Streak missiles, and while they do their designated job well...that's about it. Attempts to add Streak launchers to larger 'Mechs as an anti-Piranha fallback tend to go poorly, because of the usual issue with lock-on weapons - face time. You have to get a lock, you have to hold that lock, and against the typical threats one employs Streaks against that is a nontrivial task. These targets often employ stealth armor, which can only be pierced with TAG, and losing your TAG lock for even a fraction of a second turns off your Streaks. Not to mention the sheer frustration of trying to reliably hold a bead on squirrels. Against larger, nastier threats, the face time means you can't use your Streak launchers properly without foregoing twisting damage around, which ends in a very cored, very dead 'Mech.

My proposal for consideration, thus, is the following: leave damage and cycle rate alone, as changes to neither number have ever really made Streaks good. Streak missiles are a lock-on face-staring brawly weapon, and that just doesn't work. You can't rely on holding locks in the middle of a brawl, or against fast-cruising light 'Mechs pulling light 'Mech appropriate jukes. Instead?

Drastically shorten the time required to obtain a lock with Streak missiles.

Let lock-on with Streak missiles be super fast, half-second or less, even against ECM shielded targets. Streak missile bone targeting already disadvantages them against regular SRMs that can be aimed at vulnerable locations. The larger, heavier launchers are also their own disadvantage. Streaks are the most unfocused weapons in the game, even over LBX shotgun autocannons, and to the best of my current knowledge they still need you to hold the lock after firing if you want to hit. They do not also need to be face-staring weapons.

If Streak launchers were made extremely quick to lock on with, such that you could acquire a lock, fire the missiles, wait for impact and then twist away in not too much more time than it takes a heavy laser to burn? They would be less of a trap in a close fight. They would be more compatible with TAG, which is very difficult to hold accurately on target in a close scrum. They would be more useful for discouraging lighter 'Mechs, and larger 'Mechs that use Streak launchers in their original tabletop guise as crit fishing weapons against opened targets could use those weapons without completely sacrificing their defensive twisting. Streak damage/cycle rate could be adjusted around the shortened lock time and the upcoming quirk pass, hopefully ensuring that light/weakened targets have to respect Streak launchers without making them completely unable to approach Streak boats.

I don't know if lockon time is an XML edit and something the Cauldron can do or if it's an engineering thing and this is a waste of time, but I figured I'd throw the idea out there. Super short lock times for Streak missiles aren't the same as fire-and-forget, which would be more ideal...but it would be something, and it'd allow the weapons to compete better against unguided munitions that can be snapfired without issue, or even ATMs that can be fired unguided already (yes, I know unguided ATM shots are a bad idea, but you can still take those shots if you need to - Streaks have no such benefit).

Thanks for your time, Cauldron folks, and all the work you've already put in. Good fortune to you in the days to come.

[Khobai]

I agree streaks need a shorter lockon time. It takes way too long to lockon with streaks now.

The problem is I dont know if they can decrease the lockon time of streaks without also decreasing the lockon time of LRMs and ATMs. I think lockon time might be a global variable shared by all those weapons. Id be fine with all lockon weapons getting a 0.5s lockon speed buff though.


Letting streaks fire like regular srms when they dont have a lock would be nice too.

Theres rules precedent for it in battletech. Streaks can fire like normal srms when jammed by angel ecm. Which implies streaks can always fire like normal srms if they dont have a lock.

Quote

Against larger, nastier threats, the face time means you can't use your Streak launchers properly without foregoing twisting damage around, which ends in a very cored, very dead 'Mech.

You can use the arm reticle to lockon with streaks. You need to use a mech with both lower arm actuators so you can lock on with your streaks while torso twisting either direction. Its 100% doable with the right mech.

Not that it really matters now that mechs die in like 2 alphastrikes.

Edited by Khobai, 08 June 2021 - 07:31 AM.

[Leone]

Currently I find ATMs better'n streaks for light hunting. Not sure about reduced lock on times overall, since light hunting should be more'n the streaks wheelhouse'n the ATMs. But right now I find streaks worthless. IS streaks don't have the range to get decent locks on tricksy mechs, uavs are needed to deal with stealth armour, and clan streaks just don't deal enough damage.

~Leone.

[Remover of Obstacles]

Might want to double check the UAV thing.

Pretty sure UAVs don't do anything to stealth mechs.

[Leone]

Huh. They musta just disabled stealth for the cooling when I popped it then.

~Leone.

[Davegt27]

OP any chance you do some videos of streaks in use ?

I had to disable videos on my PC

[Dogstar]

Excellent idea, lock on times are definitely a problem for all types of missiles and my own experiments with boating streaks have shown that facetime is the problem - boating a bunch of streak launchers, set on chainfire to minimise heat, is much like firing a RAC but without the benefit of the secondary effects that reduce return fire

Edited by Dogstar, 09 June 2021 - 12:22 AM.

[ShiverMeRivets]

Lock on times are shared between all lock on weapons - you cannot have a shorter time just for streaks.

What you can do is make lock on time much faster at short ranges. Instant lock at 100 meters will not do any good for ATMs or LRMs, but is important to streaks.

Another thing that may help streaks is to allow dumbfire. However, in that case they become “heavier SRMs with lock on option”, so they may need some parameters tweaks. For example, the cStreaks have a much longer range than cSRMs for some reason. Allowing them to be dumbfired will give the clans a medium range SRMs.

[Davegt27]

ShiverMeRivets, on 09 June 2021 - 12:40 AM, said:

Lock on times are shared between all lock on weapons - you cannot have a shorter time just for streaks.

What you can do is make lock on time much faster at short ranges. Instant lock at 100 meters will not do any good for ATMs or LRMs, but is important to streaks.

Another thing that may help streaks is to allow dumbfire. However, in that case they become “heavier SRMs with lock on option”, so they may need some parameters tweaks. For example, the cStreaks have a much longer range than cSRMs for some reason. Allowing them to be dumbfired will give the clans a medium range SRMs.

streaks have had multiple nerfs over the years
going from my poor memory the benefits from ARTEMIS was one of them
another nerf was the lock-on targeting circle (they tightened the off set so you really have the lock-on box close to the target or you will lose lock)

this hurts assaults that want use streaks for self defense against lights
I am sure there are other nerfs

my opinion is
no more nerfs please
no more trick game mechanics to make things look like a buff but are really a nerf

[Aivazovsky]

1453 R, on 08 June 2021 - 06:36 AM, said:

We've developed doctrine, of sorts, for Streak launchers which centers on our more-or-less standardized archetypical Streak carrier, the "Piss off, Piranhas!" ACW-2.

Let me improve your "doctrine" a little.

Here are a combination of strengths and weaknesses that make streaks effective:
1) low speed / medium speed and lack of JJ (weakness) are compensated by high firepower (MDD 6SSRM6/SCR 5SSRM6)
2) low speed compensated with JJ and firepower (HMN-PA)
3) weak firepower is compensated by JJ or high speed (SCH, ACW)

Your build has weaknesses (weak firepower, medium speed, unnecessary HMEDLASER and LAMS), and has no strengths (JJ or high speed (120-130 kp / h)). Perhaps that is why you feel that the streaks are "weakened"

I'm not saying that "everything is ok with streaks" (in my opinion, we need more ammo per ton and a little less heat). Fast lock-on time at short distances? Hmmm, sounds interesting.

Edited by Aivazovsky, 09 June 2021 - 02:18 AM.

[w0qj]

[Edit]
Straight from the horse's mouth:

That was exactly my personal suggestion, just make Streak lock-on the same speed as Artemis.
ie: faster locks!
[/Edit]

justcallme A S H, on 10 June 2021 - 09:02 PM, said:

Artemis does not give you faster lock time. Only a spread reduction. ...

Do you need your mech to "buy"/outfit to Artemis missile guidance system for the entire mech in the MechBay?
I feel you need to. Imagine a mech with LRM + Streak !

ShiverMeRivets, on 09 June 2021 - 12:40 AM, said:

Lock on times are shared between all lock on weapons - you cannot have a shorter time just for streaks....

Davegt27, on 09 June 2021 - 01:52 AM, said:

streaks have had multiple nerfs over the years
going from my poor memory the benefits from ARTEMIS was one of them
another nerf was the lock-on targeting circle (they tightened the off set so you really have the lock-on box close to the target or you will lose lock)...

Edited by w0qj, 10 June 2021 - 10:34 PM.

[Xeno Phalcon]

ShiverMeRivets, on 09 June 2021 - 12:40 AM, said:

Lock on times are shared between all lock on weapons - you cannot have a shorter time just for streaks.

This was the issue that cropped up years ago, because the 'missile lock' system only uses one uniformed lock on mechanic for all lock on weapons (IE LRM, SSRM and ATM) they really CAN'T do anything like this with out changing how lock on works - why artemis got hit with that nerf bat originally because PGI couldnt be bothered to create a new system.

IMO streaks themselves are fine, but changing how TAG works against ECM/Stealth may be a easier change - IE allow it to work for the mech using it within the ecm bubble, which is probably another derpy limitation because if it works for one mech it must work for them all right?

[Dauntless Blint]

I suppose you could semi dumb fire them if they tracked your crosshair when you didn't have a lock

[1453 R]

My hope for the idea was to reduce the time between "Point" and "Click" for Streak launchers. That's the real ****** for lock missiles - almost every other weapon in the game has no delay between Pointing at an enemy and Clicking to begin dealing damage to that enemy. Rotaries have a spool-up time and goose waffles have a brief charge-up, but both of those weapon types have other properties that counteract the delay between Point and Click. Goose waffles have almost no visual signature and are difficult to track back to their source (i.e. "where the PHLYING PHISH ***** is that stealth Thanatos?!" moments) as well as possessing good single-hit damage, effectively zero heat, and phenomenal range, and rotary autocannons severely inhibit return fire through flash, noise, and psychological impact at the other end of the gun.

Streak missiles have no such edge, and unlike LRMs they have no indirect option. ATMs are in a similar-ish boat and frankly could probably benefit from faster locks as well, as both weapons require significant time between Point and Click with no real way to hedge their Pointing. Not only that, but their 'burntime' is longer than even the fattest of heavy lasers due to the requirement for maintaining the lock after firing if they don't want to completely hose their DPS. That's the other reason I figured faster locks would be beneficial - to make losing your locks to enemy movement or deliberately sacrificing lock to engage in defensive twisting less punishing for people using Streaks (or ATMs) in close brawls.

If the lock system can't be adjusted per launcher, then that sucks. Eh. Was a thought.

[Storming Angel]

Yeah i don't use them due to the large amount of ECM and the long lock times too be fair despite being close ranged locking weapons.

[Tarteso]

Restoring the lock-on area to the full reticle again should help

[Dogstar]

Tarteso, on 09 June 2021 - 09:54 AM, said:

Restoring the lock-on area to the full reticle again should help

I'm not sure about changing it back to the original wide angle, but somewhere in between where it is now and where it used to be would be better.

Don't forget it was the constant moaning from a whole bunch of whiny players that got PGI to nerf it in the first place, I bet they'd all be back in an instant with their cries of 'lock on weapons are too good because it lets imbeciles beat leet players' if the angle was increased even slightly...

Edited by Dogstar, 09 June 2021 - 11:28 AM.

[Khobai]

Streaks have three big problems that I see,

1) their lockon time and lockon area suck. this could be partially mitigated by allowing streaks to dumbfire like srms without a lock. allowing streaks to dumbfire also eliminates some of the more fringe situatoins where streaks become unusable.

2) their damage is too low to justify the 1.5 extra tons they weigh compared to srms. furthermore the homing capability of streaks spreads out their damage horrendously because it targets random hit locations instead of the target's center. streak damage per missile absolutely must be increased.

3) streaks overlap with other weapons in the game. atms for example. streaks and atms need to be substantially differentiated so they arnt both homing missiles used at brawling ranges. streaks should be better than atms at brawling range and atms should be more versatile at all ranges.

[Navid A1]

Lock-on time is universal. Faster locks for streaks, means faster lock for everything.

[Dauntless Blint]

More people need to invest in their skills and BAP and Targeting Computers.