Jump to content

It's Time For Scouting To Return

Mode

45 replies to this topic

#1 IronWolfPack64

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • CS 2023 Top 12 Qualifier
  • CS 2023 Top 12 Qualifier
  • 269 posts

Posted 20 July 2021 - 10:03 AM

The scouting game mode was eliminated a long time ago and I can see why people may have wanted it gone, namely the fact that it may have taken away from faction as a whole with less people in the invasion que. Many experienced players and "Pug Stomping groups" wanted it eliminated and still want it done away with for this same reason but I think that taking it away is perpetuating the two biggest problems in faction play today. Those two problems are 1. The skill/experience gap and 2. Lack of new blood into faction play.

Addressing the first point. It's a simple math really, its a lot easier to have 4 good players in a group then 12. Stomp teams have less success in scouting, it's just the way it is as it is a more balanced game mode in terms of the skill gap. I'm not going to expand upon this as it's pretty simple really and doesn't need much further explanation.

Addressing the second point. As someone who is trying to run a unit that is focused on training and development I can attest to how hard and discouraging it is to get people into faction play when they need to build up a drop deck instead of just playing with a mech they like and are good at. Scouting was always a great way to train people in team play and certain faction mechs, builds, situations as strategies on a more focused level. Without this Faction training is just marching new players into a grinder and hoping that with a little bit of help they figure it out. Scouting served a very important role in this regard and without it it's just so hard to grow the faction play population.

The key and important thing to note here is scouting should not ever take the place of invasion in game mode based rotation. It should be a separate mode that is always playable for those interested in playing. It may not be the most time efficient to make money but over all it is a lot more fun than waiting in que to get pounded by a 12 man group of stompers with your new recruits.

Looking forward to playing some scouting again, I hope we can all get behind this.

(Also it would be cool if all or most Quick play maps could be played in scouting like Solaris city and canyon network along with others.)

#2 Leone

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 2,693 posts
  • LocationOutworlds Alliance

Posted 20 July 2021 - 10:22 AM

View PostIronWolfPack64, on 20 July 2021 - 10:03 AM, said:

Addressing the first point. It's a simple math really, its a lot easier to have 4 good players in a group then 12. Stomp teams have less success in scouting, it's just the way it is as it is a more balanced game mode in terms of the skill gap. I'm not going to expand upon this as it's pretty simple really and doesn't need much further explanation.

Uhhh, wouldn't that make stomping easier? You know, because it's easier to get four good pilots together than twelve? I mean, the moment one team loses a mech you've often decided the match.

View PostIronWolfPack64, on 20 July 2021 - 10:03 AM, said:

Addressing the second point. As someone who is trying to run a unit that is focused on training and development I can attest to how hard and discouraging it is to get people into faction play when they need to build up a drop deck instead of just playing with a mech they like and are good at.


Drop decks should be built with mechs you like and are good at. If you want folk to use specific ranges or styles, like 'fast brawl, 74 kph minimum' don't make them take a specific build, just have 'em take something that fits the theme that they enjoy, even if it means they're in a mrm splatter mech whilst everyone else takes lasers. Long as they keep up, it'll work out.

~Leone.

Edited by Leone, 20 July 2021 - 10:24 AM.


#3 IronWolfPack64

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • CS 2023 Top 12 Qualifier
  • CS 2023 Top 12 Qualifier
  • 269 posts

Posted 20 July 2021 - 11:31 AM

View PostLeone, on 20 July 2021 - 10:22 AM, said:

Uhhh, wouldn't that make stomping easier? You know, because it's easier to get four good pilots together than twelve? I mean, the moment one team loses a mech you've often decided the match.



Drop decks should be built with mechs you like and are good at. If you want folk to use specific ranges or styles, like 'fast brawl, 74 kph minimum' don't make them take a specific build, just have 'em take something that fits the theme that they enjoy, even if it means they're in a mrm splatter mech whilst everyone else takes lasers. Long as they keep up, it'll work out.

~Leone.


I am aware of the strengths of drop deck comp, but even with sound meta drop decks and a good situation we still can't come close to competing with a full twelve man of experienced players. Then people get discouraged and stop playing cause we can't win. If we could get drops with just four of us we would have better success I know this cause I played scouting a lot with my old unit and that's how it really went for us. Scouting would help smaller units like mine build momentum and get moving in the right direction so that we can play invasion effectively by building confidence in newer players.

#4 Marquis De Lafayette

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • CS 2023 Top 12 Qualifier
  • CS 2023 Top 12 Qualifier
  • 1,396 posts
  • LocationIn Valley Forge with General Washington

Posted 20 July 2021 - 12:04 PM

While it is easier to get 4 good players together than it is to get 12. There was still a pretty good % of at least competitive-feeling matches in scouting back in the day. Heck, even when you lost 4-2 or 4-1 you could often have the feeling (and could tell new players) that if we had just had better focus fire, better positioning, etc that it could have been a different outcome. Plus 4-2 just feels a lot closer than 48-24 (even though it’s the same k/d). It was also a good place to train newbies in some of the basics and on board to a unit and FW even if you were losing more than winning on a particular night. Plus it didn’t take so long…that is if you could get a match. Also, it was a way to get a larger group going…build up from 2 guys scouting to 4 guys scouting to 6 guys dropping Invasion. It helped get the ball rolling for FW for the evening for some units. It probably helped build numbers for the main FW queue more than it hurt them really.

#5 tee5

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 521 posts

Posted 20 July 2021 - 03:24 PM

So your problem is now you can't keep up vs those high stacked good 12 man groups?

Do you think you can keep up vs those high stacked 4 man groups in scouting?



Also we don't have the numbers for scouting AND CW.
If I have to chose one, I chose CW.

#6 Ignatius Audene

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 1,161 posts

Posted 20 July 2021 - 11:50 PM

Do u rly meet so many high stacked teams? In EU there are mostly mixed groups out of competent players with some pugs addon. Sure These competent players will outtrade your recruits, but i think cw is one of the best places to learn trading.

Sure the required decks are s factor, but with 8 machines u should be fine for the start (one extreme range (IS Erlarge and clan erppc are flexible), one mid range deck (dakka or laser).

Scouting needs a overhaul to the mm to be implemented and the drop ship mechanism would need rework, to prevent smoke dive)
So even if the population supports it, it is still a long way.

#7 Yondu Udonta

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • CS 2020 Gold Champ
  • CS 2020 Gold Champ
  • 645 posts

Posted 21 July 2021 - 12:49 AM

I do not think Scouting addresses the skill/experience gap. In no way other than mech selection after knowing the map is Scouting like Invasion. If anything, it feels more like QP with only one mech, chasing the occasional squirrel or avoiding the enemy to win via objectives. Honestly you can achieve this kind of lance training in Soup Queue without the need for Scouting.

I recall that I used to be for Scouting to return as a separate queue but then I remembered that there were certain groups that would run over to Scouting after being hammered in Invasion to dodge certain players/groups being on the enemy team, which results in less Invasion matches. So I would say that unless the FP population increases, I would be against Scouting returning as a separate queue, or even existing as a matter of fact.

#8 Nightbird

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The God of Death
  • The God of Death
  • 7,518 posts

Posted 21 July 2021 - 06:30 AM

No to scouting. Play MW5 if you don't want to PvP.

#9 IronWolfPack64

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • CS 2023 Top 12 Qualifier
  • CS 2023 Top 12 Qualifier
  • 269 posts

Posted 21 July 2021 - 06:33 AM

Part of growing the population of FW is generating interest, without something new to add to the mix there will be no net growth. That’s just how things work. If we want a growing and thriving Faction Warfare community we can’t just sit around and expect things to change. Scouting has the potential to bring a lot of interest back to faction warfare in general and allow all of us to benefit.

And on the note of people dodging certain players and groups. People do that anyway, it literally would make no difference as now when people get stomped they just go to play quick play till those people clear. At least this way we could have more people like that still playing FW and move further away from the dead mode stereotype.

#10 Marquis De Lafayette

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • CS 2023 Top 12 Qualifier
  • CS 2023 Top 12 Qualifier
  • 1,396 posts
  • LocationIn Valley Forge with General Washington

Posted 21 July 2021 - 08:26 AM

I think there is an (unprovable) assumption amongst many very good FW players that scouting took people away from the invasion queue. I.e…that if scouting didn’t exist that most or all of the players in that queue would swap over to invasion. While it’s unprovable either way, I don’t think it has turned out that way. As I said above for some it was a way to build group numbers until you had 5+ in TS/discord so you didn’t just drop a 2 man with 10 rando’s against a 12 man. I know the main way lately is just to go gather various friends (irregardless of tags) and just drop FW. Scouting was another method to build a Main FW group up and was used that way by some units and groups….when scouting went out, some guys would show up to TS/discord and not stick around because they didn’t want to drop a 2 man in the main queue, don’t like quick play and didn’t want to wait an hour just to see if others showed up. So, it just took away a different method of forming FW groups that some people did like and use.
I get the concern about potentially taking numbers away from the main queue. I just think that is based on an either-or assumption that I am not as sure has turned out to be true in retrospect. Many people just stopped dropping FW as much when it became harder to start small groups up within FW. Again, it’s unprovable if getting rid of scouting helped or really hurt the main queue numbers….I am just at a point where I look at the queue and now think it probably was a “push” (equal) at best to remove it. So, I would be in favor of trying to bring it back and see.

#11 Marquis De Lafayette

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • CS 2023 Top 12 Qualifier
  • CS 2023 Top 12 Qualifier
  • 1,396 posts
  • LocationIn Valley Forge with General Washington

Posted 21 July 2021 - 09:16 AM

On a separate note: If we hope to have any kind of better future to this game mode it would probably be wise to give a serious listen to some of the “up and comers” like the OP about how to revive this mode. If any of you are a part of his unit’s discord, you know he has probably done as much as anyone to drag folks over from QP (or from being FW pugs) in the past year. Many of us are old hands who don’t do as much as we used to to bring in fresh blood and part of while the mode has struggled is lack of fresh players willing to stick around to learn the mode. It’s not that new unit heads are always right (some are idiots or have some dumb ideas… lol), just they might have a better handle on ways to grow the mode as it is today. Many of us who have been around maybe don’t have the fresh eyes and exposure to newer FW players that some of the newer unit/group heads do. Just my 2 cents

#12 Khalcruth

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Hero of Steiner
  • Hero of Steiner
  • 808 posts
  • LocationYou gotta lose your mind in Detroit! Rock City!

Posted 23 July 2021 - 05:32 PM

The problem with scouting is that the clan 55 tonners are stupidly better than anything the IS can field at that tonnage range.

#13 IronWolfPack64

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • CS 2023 Top 12 Qualifier
  • CS 2023 Top 12 Qualifier
  • 269 posts

Posted 25 July 2021 - 10:08 PM

Faction needs help, it needs life and it needs a way to start out instead of just jumping into the deep end. Especially with 4player drops in quick play it is more important than ever to have a smaller game mode in faction of for no other reason than to keep people playing faction instead of just quick play.

#14 John Bronco

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Fighter
  • The Fighter
  • 966 posts

Posted 26 July 2021 - 06:53 AM

View PostIronWolfPack64, on 25 July 2021 - 10:08 PM, said:

Faction needs help, it needs life and it needs a way to start out instead of just jumping into the deep end. Especially with 4player drops in quick play it is more important than ever to have a smaller game mode in faction of for no other reason than to keep people playing faction instead of just quick play.

People don't want to play faction. The last leg fell out when soup was implemented since the majority have a clear preference for the QP game mode and they can blame their team when they lose.

FP isn't coming back and frankly it would be insane for PGI to invest any resources beyond the smallest tweaks (randomize attack/defend, conquest tickets, mode chances). Talk about throwing good money after bad.

The FP ride has been over for several years and I'd wager most of us regulars still playing it have long since made peace with that.

#15 Diomedes Of The Great War Cry

    Rookie

  • Knight Errant
  • 6 posts

Posted 26 July 2021 - 08:17 AM

There is always hope to change, to return to what once was, as long as there are those with the strength and determination to do better.

#16 Marquis De Lafayette

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • CS 2023 Top 12 Qualifier
  • CS 2023 Top 12 Qualifier
  • 1,396 posts
  • LocationIn Valley Forge with General Washington

Posted 26 July 2021 - 09:23 AM

View PostJohn Bronco, on 26 July 2021 - 06:53 AM, said:

People don't want to play faction. The last leg fell out when soup was implemented since the majority have a clear preference for the QP game mode and they can blame their team when they lose.

FP isn't coming back and frankly it would be insane for PGI to invest any resources beyond the smallest tweaks (randomize attack/defend, conquest tickets, mode chances). Talk about throwing good money after bad.

The FP ride has been over for several years and I'd wager most of us regulars still playing it have long since made peace with that.


You may well be right…the FW ship sailed a long time ago and now it’s just playing out the string.

However, what if it could be revived somewhat….even double what it is today. Which is a currently a small base. That means more games for everyone…more groups, less pugs, etc. I don’t think it’s going back anywhere close to the glory days, but 2x or even 3x the current situation isn’t crazy talk if you find a way to onboard newbies to the mode. Most units are gone, dormant, etc. But the few that are trying to bring in fresh blood I appreciate….

What’s really crazy talk is PGI focusing efforts to appease all us FW vets who spend little to no money on the game and haven’t in years. All the proposals (many of which I have sympathy for) are aimed at the vets. Anyone still around isn’t leaving even if PGI doesn’t fix any of that. Newbies actually buy mechpacks (I know it’s crazy…lol). So, if PGI cares about money…they really should focus on what increases those folks desire to buy mechpacks. There are MW5 folks coming over, that want to play FW and yes…they are bad…don’t know anything, etc. However, if they could be onboarded to the mode maybe this mode gets better over time and has a longer lifespan. Aka..more matches for vets. It’s a faint hope, but in dropping with training units I don’t see it as impossible

#17 SunRunner

    Member

  • Pip
  • Philanthropist
  • Philanthropist
  • 14 posts

Posted 26 July 2021 - 11:00 AM

Well speaking as a NEW player who literally did his 1st Faction play drops under Ironwolf this weekend, He is right. If I had not had him and a couple of the other guys in his group explaining things I would have been totally lost. Another problem with faction play is lack of Tier system. Granted I can see how it would be much harder to make it work in faction play but honestly it was not fun watching you vapor eagle pop tart and kill my assault from across the map. Dont reply with the GIT GUD crap. New players who are new to the game need to fight other newbs or its just discouraging. Your a great player, but The RL pro sports teams have Farm league teams for a reason. You need your new players to not have their asses handed to them constantly. And having never played scout mode I cant get too deep into the weeds about it, what I can say is you need a more New player friendly way to get people into Faction play if you want it to keep going. As it was I had fun because of the People I was with. If that had just been me wandering into it with a bunch of other randos that would have been one of the worst NPE experiences of my life. I mean you had guys in Kit Foxes killing us in our deployment zones. Its a great tactic and it wins games but when your half dead before you mech even touched the ground its un fun to say the least.

And yes my account is old, I played this game for about 6 months after it launched with some buddies and then we quit playing it and never came back. Why I cant honestly even remember, but I got MW5 Mercs played it all nice an hard, beat the campaign a couple times and was like man I remember playing MWO wonder if its still around. And have wandered back to the game.

#18 IronWolfPack64

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • CS 2023 Top 12 Qualifier
  • CS 2023 Top 12 Qualifier
  • 269 posts

Posted 26 July 2021 - 01:14 PM

View PostSunRunner, on 26 July 2021 - 11:00 AM, said:

Well speaking as a NEW player who literally did his 1st Faction play drops under Ironwolf this weekend, He is right. If I had not had him and a couple of the other guys in his group explaining things I would have been totally lost. Another problem with faction play is lack of Tier system. Granted I can see how it would be much harder to make it work in faction play but honestly it was not fun watching you vapor eagle pop tart and kill my assault from across the map. Dont reply with the GIT GUD crap. New players who are new to the game need to fight other newbs or its just discouraging. Your a great player, but The RL pro sports teams have Farm league teams for a reason. You need your new players to not have their asses handed to them constantly. And having never played scout mode I cant get too deep into the weeds about it, what I can say is you need a more New player friendly way to get people into Faction play if you want it to keep going. As it was I had fun because of the People I was with. If that had just been me wandering into it with a bunch of other randos that would have been one of the worst NPE experiences of my life. I mean you had guys in Kit Foxes killing us in our deployment zones. Its a great tactic and it wins games but when your half dead before you mech even touched the ground its un fun to say the least.

And yes my account is old, I played this game for about 6 months after it launched with some buddies and then we quit playing it and never came back. Why I cant honestly even remember, but I got MW5 Mercs played it all nice an hard, beat the campaign a couple times and was like man I remember playing MWO wonder if its still around. And have wandered back to the game.


Thank you sunrunner. I hope you still had a little bit of a good time dropping with us despite the stomps. That one win was pretty juicy tho. Anyway he’s right we need to help new players get into the mode, scouting isn’t the only way to do that but again the only real other way is for vets to take newbies under their wing and develop them. Something so few are willing to do.

#19 Sawk

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Star Captain
  • Star Captain
  • 402 posts

Posted 26 July 2021 - 03:48 PM

WOW
YES PLEASE, bring back scouting, so many wait for faction play, 70% of folks have not played solaris, many find it hard to get in a group, its great way to play med mechs, even lights.
YOU folks THAT DISAGREE, then do not play it, what you want to fight me over it, sure agree lets fight, i'm only tier 5 should not be a challenge, i pick the map you pick the weight --- we rock.
OH i am CLAN, there the weaker mechs around, everyone knows it-- i did make CAPT in 2 clans, been its been so long ago, i more then likely sold, all good mechs long ago.

SAWK -- mongoose/wolf

#20 IronWolfPack64

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • CS 2023 Top 12 Qualifier
  • CS 2023 Top 12 Qualifier
  • 269 posts

Posted 26 July 2021 - 09:26 PM

Small units need help if they are going to be able to stick around. Shawl you raise a very good point. 4 mans gets cue jumped then they go to scouting not QP. Keeps them in faction play, keeps them ready to go for the next cue!

Edited by IronWolfPack64, 26 July 2021 - 09:26 PM.






1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users