135 replies to this topic

[Thorqemada]

D A T A, on 09 August 2021 - 12:10 PM, said:

when exactly? when mechs had litterally half the armor they had now and stalkers alphastriked 6 PPCs all day and all night?

You Sir blow a very restricted timeframe very out of proportion!

Aside of that you seem to like to blow Mechs nowadays even faster with 4xLBX and 7xSmall Lasers...

Edited by Thorqemada, 09 August 2021 - 09:24 PM.

[Gagis]

ScrapIron Prime, on 09 August 2021 - 07:59 PM, said:

Nor is there any way to avoid fire or get dodgy in the crunch of the game. The gracefulness of battlemechs is all poetry and prose, but you see none of it in play.

The penalty for hitting a moving target is so severe that an extremely fast light or a hovertank can feel absolutely impossible to hit. If it stops for a turn on the other hand, it WILL die. All the rules of the game are abstractions due to how granular the actual game mechanics are, but the to-hit penalties and piloting rolls are there to describe just this thing. Speed is life.

The penalties for hitting while moving yourself mirror it. Your targeting computers have a hard time holding a target while you are constantly undergoing evasive manouvers.

Couldn't give a damn about the books.

Edited by Gagis, 09 August 2021 - 11:54 PM.

[ScrapIron Prime]

Gagis, on 09 August 2021 - 11:53 PM, said:

The penalty for hitting a moving target is so severe that an extremely fast light or a hovertank can feel absolutely impossible to hit. If it stops for a turn on the other hand, it WILL die. All the rules of the game are abstractions due to how granular the actual game mechanics are, but the to-hit penalties and piloting rolls are there to describe just this thing. Speed is life.

The penalties for hitting while moving yourself mirror it. Your targeting computers have a hard time holding a target while you are constantly undergoing evasive manouvers.

Couldn't give a damn about the books.

The breakpoint is a mech moving at 5/8. At that speed or faster, the defensive bonus for moving can exceed the penalties for shooting while moving. Speed kills… your opponent. The rest is gaming the weapon ranges for the to-hit numbers.

Of course, since the hits are randomized across the target, the advantage is still with the larger mechs able to soak more incoming fire.

But none of that is “lore”. That’s all the “crunch” of the tabletop rules. The lore is everything else.

[Spheroid]

MechNexus, on 09 August 2021 - 04:25 AM, said:

You are aware that the cauldron are in the process of buffing the less favourable mechs, right? We've already had an agility pass which set the timberwolf from "trash tier" to "unironically the best clan heavy in the game" and a quirk pass is around the corner, one that prioritises the weakest mechs again much like the agility passes before it. Making every mech worth taking in some way will go far further than forcing anything.

I'm aware that the era of giga quirks is over and that it would take a lot of work to make a Locust-1V the equal of a Flea. I am of the opinion that meta is binary, something is either the best or it is not, especially regarding lights. This is unlike heavies where you can clone generically workable loadouts across numerous chassis. Have fun piloting your Spider-5V.

[pattonesque]

Spheroid, on 10 August 2021 - 06:38 AM, said:

I'm aware that the era of giga quirks is over and that it would take a lot of work to make a Locust-1V the equal of a Flea. I am of the opinion that meta is binary, something is either the best or it is not, especially regarding lights. This is unlike heavies where you can clone generically workable loadouts across numerous chassis. Have fun piloting your Spider-5V.

So my understanding is that, at least for underperforming chassis, gigaquirks are coming back.

[Bud Crue]

Spheroid, on 10 August 2021 - 06:38 AM, said:

I'm aware that the era of giga quirks is over and that it would take a lot of work to make a Locust-1V the equal of a Flea. I am of the opinion that meta is binary, something is either the best or it is not, especially regarding lights. This is unlike heavies where you can clone generically workable loadouts across numerous chassis. Have fun piloting your Spider-5V.

I’m really interested to see how some of the dross that are already arguably provided with “giga quirks” are going to get buffed. There is only so much they can do for something like a Panther 10P, some of the Vindicators, the Spider 5V, etc. I can’t see how some of the truly crap variants won’t still be crap even with bigger and better quirks.

[pbiggz]

Bud Crue, on 10 August 2021 - 09:59 AM, said:

I’m really interested to see how some of the dross that are already arguably provided with “giga quirks” are going to get buffed. There is only so much they can do for something like a Panther 10P, some of the Vindicators, the Spider 5V, etc. I can’t see how some of the truly crap variants won’t still be crap even with bigger and better quirks.

either firepower quirks that can let a bad variant match the DPS of a better one, or durability quirks to make it tanky as hell.

Lots of places it could go, im interested to see what comes of it.

[ScrapIron Prime]

Firepower quirks, I hope. making a firestarter as tanky as a thunderbolt isn't really the solution, but giving it massive heat quirks might be. A Meh mech that suddenly never ever overheats is a big boost without making it a tank as well.

[pattonesque]

Bud Crue, on 10 August 2021 - 09:59 AM, said:

I’m really interested to see how some of the dross that are already arguably provided with “giga quirks” are going to get buffed. There is only so much they can do for something like a Panther 10P, some of the Vindicators, the Spider 5V, etc. I can’t see how some of the truly crap variants won’t still be crap even with bigger and better quirks.

what I hope will happen is not necessarily that all variants will be good, but that they'll be interesting.

Like the Locust-1V with crazy LPL quirks was never in the meta, but it was unique and fun to play

[ScrapIron Prime]

pattonesque, on 10 August 2021 - 10:36 AM, said:

what I hope will happen is not necessarily that all variants will be good, but that they'll be interesting.

Like the Locust-1V with crazy LPL quirks was never in the meta, but it was unique and fun to play

Yes, I'd like my Firestarters to see the light of day again. And while I do still play my Sarah's Jenner on principle, I do tire of finishing each match thinking that could have gone better...

As it is, the only lights I take out and do reasonably well in now are (predictably enough) my Raven 3L and Lolcust Pirate's Bane. The rest just can't cut it.

[Bud Crue]

ScrapIron Prime, on 10 August 2021 - 10:32 AM, said:

Firepower quirks, I hope. making a firestarter as tanky as a thunderbolt isn't really the solution, but giving it massive heat quirks might be. A Meh mech that suddenly never ever overheats is a big boost without making it a tank as well.

I’m not so sure. There are plenty of mechs with 20% or more cooldown quirks, significant heat quirks, etc. and many of them are still rarely played or at least rarely played with a build that takes advantage of those quirks (see the Quickdraw 4G for example). Looking at lights, the problem with many of the 35 ton lights is not their lack of firepower, but rather their over sized profile (imho). Some lights could certainly benefit from significantly increased armor buffs, while others I will agree could use firepower quirks (or both).

My biggest concern is that looking at the Cauldron’s M.O. thus far, they will be quirking based on the assumption that the hoped for rescale will actually occur; and thus a lot of mechs will not get the “giga quirks” that many are hoping for, and the under performers will still significantly underperform for a long time (if/whenever the rescale occurs).

But yeah, I too am in the camp of I’d like variants underperforming or otherwise to have some character, to at the very least, be interesting to play. Some of the Cauldron folks (Ash) have stated that one of their goals is to return the game to 2017ish game play, so a return of things like the LPL Locust, etc. may very well be returning (I certainly hope so…and boy will I be all over the Huggin if machine gun like SRM-4s are brought back in all their glory).

[pattonesque]

ScrapIron Prime, on 10 August 2021 - 10:40 AM, said:

Yes, I'd like my Firestarters to see the light of day again. And while I do still play my Sarah's Jenner on principle, I do tire of finishing each match thinking that could have gone better...

As it is, the only lights I take out and do reasonably well in now are (predictably enough) my Raven 3L and Lolcust Pirate's Bane. The rest just can't cut it.

the FS9-A is actually really good right now, either with a bunch of SPLs or 3LPPCs/5SLs

[1453 R]

Wouldn't it be the weirdest thing ever if Firestarters started bringing flamers to matches again?

Also yeah - the Huggz actually has near-Piranha levels of DPS right now with HMGs and SRM-4s, especially with cooldown quirks in the tree. A pretty conventional loadout hits a smidge over 13 DPS prior to Skillz, if admittedly only at johnson-punching range and with all the disadvantages of face staring and being-a-Raven. If they gave the Huggz back its WTF-level SRM-4 quirks, it could actually be scary. Especially now that its two pithy jump jets are actually enough to let it access terrain on builds that bother taking them, i.e. standard/light MG builds rather than HMG builds.

[ScrapIron Prime]

Bud Crue, on 10 August 2021 - 11:02 AM, said:

My biggest concern is that looking at the Cauldron’s M.O. thus far, they will be quirking based on the assumption that the hoped for rescale will actually occur; and thus a lot of mechs will not get the “giga quirks” that many are hoping for, and the under performers will still significantly underperform for a long time (if/whenever the rescale occurs).

Very good point. A smaller profile would solve a lot of issues in a few of the light chassis out there, but that's a bigger ask from the Devs.

[caravann]

Is it even possible to see beyond 2600m

1080 is short range

1620 is medium range

2100 is long range

300 is brawling

200 is hugging

But no matter what range you choose you can still use artillery at zero range

[Horseman]

Gagis, on 08 August 2021 - 11:05 PM, said:

That sounds much more like MWO than the weird ideas people have about slow stompy mechs with infinite armour and peashooter weapons. Use cover, keep moving, and twist incoming damage to different components, and MWO is much like Battletech lore is. Stationary mechs not being quickly destroyed by accurate weapons fire is not Battletech.

That's because those people are describing their personal power fantasy, under the mistaken assumption that Battletech somehow is it.

The Basilisk, on 08 August 2021 - 02:02 AM, said:

Ppl who try to justify the hillarious take on mech customization of the MW series (except MW5!!!) with the "HURDUR it haz mechlab in TT too, red tha roolz book bro" argument always forget the main balancing point of BATTLETECH.
Availability of tech, costs and availability of a skilled/educated workforce.

MWO could have gone there, yes. But it has not, and now it's too late to change course that dramatically.

Quote

" HEY YOU METAFARMERS at the top of the foodchain with your so called meta (aka abusing inherent lack of gamedesign) you are boring the sh...out of everyone else "

Meta is not specific to any particular build or playstyle, all it is is players making optimized decisions in the scope they have access to. In the stock MWOWC from a few years ago there still was a meta. There will always be a meta of some sort.

1453 R, on 07 August 2021 - 07:36 PM, said:

As it stands, the game is top-heavy with wildly disproportionate representation of heavy and assault 'Mechs because every single god damned game mode in MWO except Conquest rewards firepower over mobility.

I'd argue it's less that light and medium mechs are underperforming and more that underperforming players try to use heavy and assault mechs to

1453 R, on 06 August 2021 - 09:36 AM, said:

Conquest is love, Conquest is life. Or at least Conquest is the least terrible of half a dozen godawful game modes in this game. Vote for it more often, don't ignore the caps when you get it, and be astounded how much better your games become.

Agreed. Conquest requires a lot more coordination than the other modes, and that makes it a lot more fun.

1453 R, on 27 July 2021 - 08:35 AM, said:

That entire image is in service to the idea of getting to a position where the first thing the enemy knows of your presence is your weapons fire impacting their face. The whole idea is to outperform the enemy, who are also trying to put that same image/breakdown into action. See before being seen; kill before being killed. If you don't shoot the enemy, it doesn't matter how sneaky you are - you WILL be found eventually, and then you will die.

Exactly. The key realization is that most likely you WILL be killed eventually - once one gets to terms with that, it's much easier to understand that their job in the match is really to make this as costly for the other team (in terms of losing their mechs, losing cap points giving up advantageous positions) as possible for as long as possible.

Edited by Horseman, 13 August 2021 - 11:44 AM.