21 replies to this topic

[Ludo22]

I discovered the MechDB about a week ago and I have been playing around with various builds for the mechs I own. My confusion comes to snub nose PPCs. I don't understand their purpose and I'm not sure what I am missing. For similar weight/heat you can use lasers and have the same damage and greater range.

My question: Why do you chose to use snub nose PPCs over other weapons and what mechs do you use them on?

[Aidan Crenshaw]

Snubs are PinPointFrontLoadedDamage (PPFLD) short range weapons that team up well with AC20, LB20 and SRMs, supporting the "shoot-twist-repeat" fighting style.

[Ignatius Audene]

Common builds are 3 snubs ac20 Marauder, Orion, thanatos. Warhammer is possible as well.

Not rly in qp but for example fp u can even go for 2 lb20 with 3 snubs in fafnir /anni.
Like mentioned there benefit is the fire and forget nature, resulting in low face time and good possibilities to twist of damage.

If u already have weapons with burn time /duration u are better of with mpl etc.

Edited by Ignatius Audene, 13 August 2021 - 12:35 AM.

[ScrapIron Prime]

Aidan Crenshaw, on 12 August 2021 - 11:17 PM, said:

Snubs are PinPointFrontLoadedDamage (PPFLD) short range weapons that team up well with AC20, LB20 and SRMs, supporting the "shoot-twist-repeat" fighting style.

Exactly. Lasers, even pulse lasers, spread damage while PPCs are single location (plus some splash for snubs and clan). Against a fast moving target, lasers are imprecise, while a PPC will not only deplete an entire armor section but will also cancel out ECM for a time.

[D V Devnull]

Ludo22, on 12 August 2021 - 10:04 PM, said:

My question: Why do you chose to use snub nose PPCs over other weapons and what mechs do you use them on?

I can't speak to the total variety of what Mechs/Builds that a Snub-Nose PPC would be used on. (Sorry!)


However, it does happen that I can give you a rough idea of why you might wish to utilize them. Some of that has been touched on above with Ballistic & Energy Combos where you do the whole Attack(Shoot)-Defend(Twist)-Repeat thing. There was even some old knowledge that used to apply more, back when the Weapons listed here...

• I.S. Light PPC
  
• I.S. (Standard) PPC
  
• I.S. Heavy PPC

...all happened to have a hard-locked Minimum Range which they could be used at. These days, the I.S. Light PPC does not have the Minimum Range limitation anymore, the I.S. (Standard) PPC happens to have a soft one (which behaves like Clan LRMs in how it functions) applied to it now, and the I.S. Heavy PPC still has the hard-locked Minimum Range to deal with. But with that said, the Snub-Nose PPC has never suffered from the Minimum Range issue, and has the highest ratio in terms of Ghost Heat Scale Limit (meaning how many you can fire before Ghost Heat happens) compared to how much Damage that you can do in one burst. For the example...

• I.S. Light PPC — 5.5 Damage each — GHSL = 3 — 16.5 Damage Limit
  
• I.S. (Standard) PPC — 10 Damage each — GHSL = 3 — 30 Damage Limit (But does Less Damage if hitting at only 90 Meters or less, so watch your Range to the target, or you'll end up doing Zero Damage because you were physically bumped against their face!)
  
• I.S. Heavy PPC — 15 Damage each — GHSL = 2 — 30 Damage Limit (But does Zero Damage if hitting at only 90 Meters or less, so watch your Range to the target!)
  
• I.S. ER PPC — 10 Damage each — GHSL = 2 — 20 Damage Limit (But actually runs Severely Hot compared to the others, which is a tradeoff for the Range it has, and renders it rarely usable in Brawl-type fights!)
  
• I.S. Snub-Nose PPC — 8.5 Damage each — GHSL = 3 — 25.5 (34.5 when Splash is included) Damage Limit (It has a Splash Effect like the Clan ER PPCs do, albeit a smaller amount, which radiates 1.5 Damage to each of two other Components on the opposing Mech which you're firing at, thereby enabling up to another 3 Damage per I.S. Snub-Nose PPC fired. That can mean dealing up to 34.5 Damage in total, as this is the only I.S. PPC Variant with that ability, but you have to be within 270 Meters plus any Range Boosts in order to do it properly!)

...and this does not even bring into account the Damage Falloff when you're beyond Optimal Weapon Range on these, except for the I.S. Snub-Nose PPC due to it being the prime short-range option, and the particular mention above about that Range-related limitation. When you go beyond 540 Meters, you'll also encounter that Falloff on the Light/Standard/Heavy PPC choices. (The one for the ER PPC is much further out, so I'm not going to worry about saying much about it here.) Also, while the Snub-Nose PPC (and others, obviously) may in effect run cooler for its' higher Damage capability, be careful not to keep firing too many at a time, as this Weapon uses your Mech's Heat Limit as its' own limiter. Put simply, if you...

• Are extremely close-in for a Brawl with an opponent, and need to deal a lot of Damage rather quickly
  
• Need a useful Close-Range Weapon that does not depend on Ammo being available
  
• Are unable to equip much in the way of other Close-Range Weapons, either due to Tonnage or HardPoints
  
• Don't have much room for Ammo either, again due to Tonnage or HardPoints
  
• Can equip a reasonable number of Heat Sinks to compensate, and/or can manage the Heat being generated
  
• Find that the Laser-type Weapons take far too long, and you're taking Damage where you don't want it

...then the Snub-Nose PPC may likely fit your personal playstyle and/or Mech Build which you wish to create for your personal use. All that I can do here is to arm you with this knowledge, and let you experiment to your personal satisfaction in finding what PPC Weapons work for you. Good Luck!


~D. V. "able to give potential use case info on Snub-Nose PPCs, but not exact Mech Builds to put it on" Devnull

[Horseman]

Ludo22, on 12 August 2021 - 10:04 PM, said:

I discovered the MechDB about a week ago and I have been playing around with various builds for the mechs I own. My confusion comes to snub nose PPCs. I don't understand their purpose and I'm not sure what I am missing. For similar weight/heat you can use lasers and have the same damage and greater range.
My question: Why do you chose to use snub nose PPCs over other weapons and what mechs do you use them on?

Snubs deal a lot more damage per hardpoint . What you use them on are mechs that don't have as many hardpoints to boat lasers on, but have the free tonnage for the snubs (and, possibly, PPC quirks, since mechs with fewer hardpoints tend to compensate for that with quirks)

[w0qj]

Awesome AWS-8Q is my favorite snub-PPC mech for brawling, with its PPC-Family +1 for ghost heat.
(In technical terms, this is +1 HSL for any of the IS PPC family of weapons, including Heavy PPC !).

ie: AWS-8Q can fire four (4) snub-PPC at once with no ghost heat penalty!
(Most other mechs can only fire the normal maximum of three (3) snub-PPC at once).

8.5 damage per snub-PPC, plus 2x 1.5 damage to random adjacent components.
And then multiply this above damage by four.
And you can still outfit one laser into its head for zombie mode.
Available for virtual CBills.

And watch your opponents wither in pain

(I wish that there's a way to pay for converting the AWS-8Q into +30% CBills bonus mode, but I digress).

Horseman, on 13 August 2021 - 11:54 AM, said:

Snubs deal a lot more damage per hardpoint . What you use them on are mechs that don't have as many hardpoints to boat lasers on, but have the free tonnage for the snubs (and, possibly, PPC quirks, since mechs with fewer hardpoints tend to compensate for that with quirks)

Edited by w0qj, 29 August 2021 - 10:52 AM.

[TestBacon]

D V Devnull, on 13 August 2021 - 05:21 AM, said:

• I.S. Light PPC — 5.5 Damage each — GHSL = 3 — 16.5 Damage Limit
  
• I.S. (Standard) PPC — 10 Damage each — GHSL = 3 — 30 Damage Limit (But does Less Damage if hitting at only 90 Meters or less, so watch your Range to the target, or you'll end up doing Zero Damage because you were physically bumped against their face!)
  
• I.S. Heavy PPC — 15 Damage each — GHSL = 2 — 30 Damage Limit (But does Zero Damage if hitting at only 90 Meters or less, so watch your Range to the target!)
  
• I.S. ER PPC — 10 Damage each — GHSL = 2 — 20 Damage Limit (But actually runs Severely Hot compared to the others, which is a tradeoff for the Range it has, and renders it rarely usable in Brawl-type fights!)
  
• I.S. Snub-Nose PPC — 8.5 Damage each — GHSL = 3 — 25.5 (34.5 when Splash is included) Damage Limit (It has a Splash Effect like the Clan ER PPCs do, albeit a smaller amount, which radiates 1.5 Damage to each of two other Components on the opposing Mech which you're firing at, thereby enabling up to another 3 Damage per I.S. Snub-Nose PPC fired. That can mean dealing up to 34.5 Damage in total, as this is the only I.S. PPC Variant with that ability, but you have to be within 270 Meters plus any Range Boosts in order to do it properly!)

~D. V. "able to give potential use case info on Snub-Nose PPCs, but not exact Mech Builds to put it on" Devnull

Dumb question, what exactly is this "Damage Limit" you're talking about ?

Edited by TestBacon, 23 August 2021 - 02:25 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

He just means total damage.

No idea what it's termed with limit... That's just the damage it does.

Maybe to do with ghost heat but that isn't really a, limit, and it gets complicated.

[TestBacon]

Ah, thanks. For a second I thought PGI had snuck in an alpha strike damage cap or something during one of my breaks from the game.

[D V Devnull]

TestBacon, on 23 August 2021 - 02:24 PM, said:

Dumb question, what exactly is this "Damage Limit" you're talking about ?

justcallme A S H, on 23 August 2021 - 02:31 PM, said:

He just means total damage.

No idea what it's termed with limit... That's just the damage it does.

Maybe to do with ghost heat but that isn't really a, limit, and it gets complicated.

TestBacon, on 23 August 2021 - 02:44 PM, said:

Ah, thanks. For a second I thought PGI had snuck in an alpha strike damage cap or something during one of my breaks from the game.

Hey people... Sorry if I seem confusing there. justcallme A S H understands what I am saying rather square on, but to elaborate, the reason I use the word "Limit" is because if...

• you're firing only a single type of PPC Weapon that is listed there
  
• you're firing several of just that single type of PPC Weapon at the same time
  
• you're also making sure to avoid the Ghost Heat Scale Limit in the process

...then with all three of those conditions met, it results that the amounts of Damage noted are a literal maximum of how much you get to deal on that one particular shot. That was all which I was trying to say with my thoughts. Don't worry, PGI has NOT been sneaking in other hidden gotchas, although I do sometimes wish they would sneak in more WarHorns that go with PPC usage.

~D. V. "Dang... Looks like I need to be more concise & clear about GHSL-related Alpha Damage maximums." Devnull

[w0qj]

1. For update Ghost Heat tables, you can refer to MechDB Alpha (ie: it's a work in progress):
https://mwo.nav-alpha.com/equipment

Note: There are groups of weapons where ghost heat gets triggered!
eg: Gauss/PPC group Ghost Heat
(Hence AC/10 + Snub Nose PPC together is so popular; no group ghost heat is triggered!)


2. Also new, other IS mechs with +1 HSL for PPC Family (all varieties) now, since Aug'2021 patch:
https://mwo.nav-alpha.com/mechs

AWS-8Q (+1 HSL PPC Family, all varieties)
AWS-9M (+1 HSL PPC Family, all varieties)
MAD-4A (+1 HSL PPC Family, all varieties)
MAD-6S (+1 HSL PPC Family, all varieties, & +1 HSL ERPPC, ie: can fire 4x ERPPC at once!!!!)

Lots of toys to play with

Edited by w0qj, 29 August 2021 - 07:05 PM.

[D V Devnull]

w0qj, on 26 August 2021 - 02:02 AM, said:

1. For update Ghost Heat tables, you can refer to MechDB Alpha (ie: it's a work in progress):
https://mwo.nav-alpha.com/equipment

Note: There are groups of weapons where ghost heat gets triggered!
eg: Gauss/PPC group Ghost Heat
(Hence AC/10 + Snub Nose PPC together is so popular; no group ghost heat is triggered!)


2. Also new, other IS mechs with +1 HSL for PPC Family (all varieties) now, since Aug'2021 patch:
https://mwo.nav-alpha.com/mechs

AWS-8Q (+1 HSL PPC Family, all varieties)
AWS-9M (+1 HSL PPC Family, all varieties)
MAD-4A (+1 HSL PPC Family, all varieties)
MAD-6S (+1 HSL PPC Family, all varieties, & +1 HSL ERPPC, ie: can fire 4x ERPPC at once!!!!)

Lots of toys to play with

Any chance you know what Kill2Blit has made as their Minimum Required Browser for the MechDB Alpha Site to work? Right now, I can not scroll any of the long pages at all, the top buttons are buried under something else, and the site seems effectively defunct & unusable by anyone.

~D. V. "getting the impression that newer MechDB site is in a Pre-Alpha state" Devnull

[Horseman]

D V Devnull, on 01 September 2021 - 01:06 PM, said:

Any chance you know what Kill2Blit has made as their Minimum Required Browser for the MechDB Alpha Site to work?

No, but what browser, what version and on what platform are you running that this is a concern for you? Chrome 92.0.4515.159 has no issues for me.

Quote

Right now, I can not scroll any of the long pages at all, the top buttons are buried under something else, and the site seems effectively defunct & unusable by anyone.

Have you tried clearing your browser cache? If I recall correctly, MechDB is built with Angular, and that tends to be PITA if the script loads malformed or incomplete.

Quote

~D. V. "getting the impression that newer MechDB site is in a Pre-Alpha state" Devnull

This is an alpha, so...

[ScrapIron Prime]

w0qj, on 26 August 2021 - 02:02 AM, said:

MAD-6S (+1 HSL PPC Family, all varieties, & +1 HSL ERPPC, ie: can fire 4x ERPPC at once!!!!)

And then promptly evaporate. They're hot to the point of shutting you down regardless of ghost heat...

[D V Devnull]

Horseman, on 01 September 2021 - 01:12 PM, said:

No, but what browser, what version and on what platform are you running that this is a concern for you?

I'm trying to figure out why this had to become a concern for me by asking that question about what the Minimum Required Browser happens to be. The current MechDB works without problems for me, and that's after already having to change browser once in the last two months because my old one which I had not been doing anything crazy with mysteriously decided to self-destruct on me.

~D. V. "a tad bewildered by new website things that fail to work, and this Newer MechDB Alpha is no exception" Devnull




[A minor Edit by the Post Author for wording clarity.]

Edited by D V Devnull, 01 September 2021 - 01:37 PM.

[ScrapIron Prime]

Mech DB is a nightmare to use on Safari on a touch screen, alpha version or no. Dropping an engine or an omni pod into place often does not work and is aggravating. Wish they'd add a radial button to change them instead.

[w0qj]

For what it's worth, I'm regularly using FireFox 64-bit on my Win10 64-bit:

a) FireFox: v91.0.2, 64-bit, works OK with Alpha MechDB!

b ) MS Edge: v92.0.902, 64-bit, works OK with Alpha MechDB!

c) MS Internet Explorer: does not work at all with Alpha MechDB.

d) Chrome: did not install this (gasp!)

[Aidan Crenshaw]

ScrapIron Prime, on 01 September 2021 - 01:26 PM, said:

And then promptly evaporate. They're hot to the point of shutting you down regardless of ghost heat...

Not quite. A properly built MAD-6S (full Heatgen, Cool Run and Heat Containment) has a heat capacity of 56.9, alpha of 42.96 and heat dissipation of 5,324.
This means you can alpha and have 13.94 of your heat cap left and it takes about 5.5s to alpha again, 1.5 s longer than your initial cooldown. After the second Alpha, you need about 8s to re-fire if you want to alpha again.
All this on heat-neutral maps.

w0qj, on 01 September 2021 - 05:04 PM, said:

For what it's worth, I'm regularly using FireFox 64-bit on my Win10 64-bit:

a) FireFox: v91.0.2, 64-bit, works OK with Alpha MechDB!

b ) MS Edge: v92.0.902, 64-bit, works OK with Alpha MechDB!

c) MS Internet Explorer: does not work at all with Alpha MechDB.

d) Chrome: did not install this (gasp!)

Chrome 93.0.4577.63 also works very fine

[Horseman]

w0qj, on 01 September 2021 - 05:04 PM, said:

c) MS Internet Explorer: does not work at all with Alpha MechDB.

Internet Explorer has been discontinued does not work with a LOT of things these days. Anyone who still uses IE should just bite the bullet and upgrade to a browser that's a little more current