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Too Much Damage From Too Far Away


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#41 D A T A

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Posted 07 September 2021 - 11:59 AM

View PostJounulz, on 07 September 2021 - 11:06 AM, said:

I appreciate the discussion, aside from the ad hominem attacks and the blatant misreading of mine and other posts.

I'm Tier 1, btw.

I'll concede it may be more or as much map design as anything else, having read several posts on here. I'm not even saying snipers should disappear from the game, only they should be balanced against all of the other styles, which does not seem to be the case.

Since coming back to playing more regularly, I see a majority of mechs with multiple ER Larges, PPC, Gauss. Many mechs can boat what seems to me to be alot of weapon systems. The heat cost does not seem to limit their usage like it would in the earlier versions of MWO and BT in general.

My post was meant to raise a budding concern so it could be reviewed and perhaps future changes could hew more closely to balance - whether in roles of mechs, maps, style of play, etc.

Again, the constructive comments are appreciated.


in battletech (and on sarna) gauss is described as "a weapon able to take down a light mech in 1 hit"
trust me, in lore long range weapons were even stronger than now.

overall the statement that there is abundance of traders is just false, max 1-2 out of 12 mechs are usually trading from far away, and they just end up being food for fleas and piranhas

#42 pattonesque

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Posted 07 September 2021 - 12:08 PM

View PostD A T A, on 07 September 2021 - 11:59 AM, said:

in battletech (and on sarna) gauss is described as "a weapon able to take down a light mech in 1 hit"
trust me, in lore long range weapons were even stronger than now.

overall the statement that there is abundance of traders is just false, max 1-2 out of 12 mechs are usually trading from far away, and they just end up being food for fleas and piranhas


I feel like when folks say that a majority of mechs have long range weapons they're really saying "I don't like getting hit by long range weapons at all"

#43 D A T A

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Posted 07 September 2021 - 12:13 PM

View Postpattonesque, on 07 September 2021 - 12:08 PM, said:


I feel like when folks say that a majority of mechs have long range weapons they're really saying "I don't like getting hit by long range weapons at all"


yeh, like 11 mechs out of 12 out there are just mid range/brawlers but hey, 1 mech out of 12 sniping is too many snipers

#44 Jounulz

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Posted 07 September 2021 - 12:48 PM

View Postpattonesque, on 07 September 2021 - 12:08 PM, said:


I feel like when folks say that a majority of mechs have long range weapons they're really saying "I don't like getting hit by long range weapons at all"


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View PostD A T A, on 07 September 2021 - 12:13 PM, said:

yeh, like 11 mechs out of 12 out there are just mid range/brawlers but hey, 1 mech out of 12 sniping is too many snipers


https://www.txstate....raw-Person.html

#45 pattonesque

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Posted 07 September 2021 - 01:20 PM

look, if you're coming back to this game after a while and only noticing the buffs to sniper weapons and not the equally strong buffs to brawling weapons, mobility buffs that allow mechs to spread damage from most sniper weapons, armor buffs to brawly mechs that allow them to get in close and smash faces, and the fact that all three reworked maps are friendly to brawl playstyles or allow brawlers to use cover to get in close etc. etc. then I'm not sure what to tell you.

#46 Moldur

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Posted 07 September 2021 - 01:30 PM

I've actually been doing pretty well as a brawler, but HPG is definitely not a well rounded map for heavy brawlers right now. Stepping out of position in the middle has a big punishment, and 2-3 mechs on the wall essentially locks down that side of the map unless your team is evenly matched. Faster brawlers can get away with a bit more in mid.

#47 Evan20k

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Posted 07 September 2021 - 02:03 PM

Imma be completely real with you here, this whole discussion is missing the forest for the trees.

Extreme range (900m+) sniping is actually getting worse, not better in quickplay. The premise of the playstyle boils down to being able to put enough dmg on a specific component on oncoming mechs to dissuade them from pushing into your team and leveraging their (ostensibly) higher DPM than yours. Yes, certain weapons (CERLL, Lt Gauss) have gotten decent buffs. Yes certain chassis have gotten buffs that allow them to better wield these weapons to do snipey things. However on the other side of the coin, nearly every single mech changed by the Cauldron has gotten more raw HP through armor/struct quirks and more agility/twist or otherwise ability to mitigate damage hitting the critical components needed to make sniping effective. Say nothing of the plays that the new jumpjet changes allow, there's overall way more health on the other team for ranged strategies to chew through versus the (mostly) static range of your weaponry and map sightlines not increasing the window you have to do said damage proportionally. Am I saying sniping is weak? Of course not. But the overall ecosystem to the game and increased counterplay (both passive and active) make flanking or even just W-keying into it in some cases a more and more attractive option the more mech health increases.

I'd personally be most vigilant of the impact the 650m engagement bracket weapons are having on the game. Things like UAC10s and C-LPLs enjoy both good range, low(ish) exposure, and high DPM. That's not to say they're unbalanced or don't have drawbacks, but they're definitely far stronger picks for quickplay in terms of raw consistency than being funny ERPPC man on the HPG wall.

#48 pbiggz

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Posted 08 September 2021 - 07:05 AM

If I may offer an explanation for why these threads keep popping up.

For at least a few years, we basically had no meaningful balance changes. We had LowreyBalanceTM which basically meant every weapon in the game hit like a wet noodle. Snipers rely on high alpha weapons to destroy targets before they can close the distance, but with every weapon in the game doing so little damage, you couldn't really reliably do that, so brawling reigned supreme. This is great if you love brawling, and terrible for literally everyone else.

NOW we have a balance approach that is taking into account a wide breadth of play styles. That doesn't mean sniping and missle boats and lights are now overrepresented, it actually just means they're represented period. Play styles that had gone out of style are now playable again. For the players who wanted to just thoughtlessly brawl with mpls and ultra20s, this is a catastrophe.

I've said in multiple threads that a hallmark of a good player is introspection, that is, understanding the limitations of your own skill and understanding where your own shortcomings turn into losses, because that gives you room to actually improve in a meaningful way.

If your first response to a shifting meta however, is to scream bloody murder because the thing you were thoughtlessly doing for the last two years isn't quite as effective anymore, and requires, heaven forbid, thought, to execute properly, then you're just putting your refusal to be introspective on display for everyone to see. No curiosity, no will to improve, or understand how things have changed, just a blind demand to "put things back because i liked it how it was".

This game has had a miraculous comeback. Sure the population isn't big, but it has a population, it almost lost it all, and the fact that it's come back at all generally doesn't happen in games. If a game dies, it dies. The servers go down, and thats the end of the story. MWO almost did, then came back from the brink, its unthinkable. The fact that there are a few very vocal people here advocating for the game to be set back to the way it was while it was literally at rock bottom because they can't be bothered to learn how to position properly, is equally unthinkable. Maybe learn to play the game properly instead of wailing in agony because someone else is playing a strategy you don't personally like.

#49 HauptmanT

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Posted 08 September 2021 - 03:52 PM

View PostD A T A, on 06 September 2021 - 03:43 PM, said:

the problem is that big alphas at range to not exist.....cerll are capped at max 2, IS erll at max 3, erppcs are max 2, gausses are max 2.....wtf


Snipers arent about big alphas. They are about being able to do some damage, in relative safety, which, in theory, allows then to do more damage over time. In t4, I can be very consistent in my snipers, barring the occasional game where a speedy boy singles me out. 4erLL is no joke when it comes to it's 'alpha'. 40ish damage to one location with no return fire? Yes!

Sure the Virago has to fire 2 at a time, with a slight delay between. But it's massive range boosts and heat reduction means it never stops firing from a position enemy erLLs firing back do almost nothing. Think my Virago has an 1100 meter optimal. Nutz.

The ECM Marauder can fire all 4 together, with no heat penalty. Shorter range than the Virago, but since you fire all at once, you dont need to expose as long. So my second favorite 'sniper'.

Then my Cougar. 2 high mounted erLLs with a 1000 meter optimal (bonus from arm pods, and a computer) on a mech so squat it can hide anywhere, behind every cigarette butt left lying around.

I'm sure if I tried it in t3+ though the number of games where a speedy boy came and ate me would be much more frequent.

But the thing is, I can fire multiple times before a mech can find cover... which is likely what happened to our OP. It wasnt a high alpha... he just got shot multiple times from multiple people and had all his armor stripped in 4 seconds flat.

Edited by HauptmanT, 08 September 2021 - 04:18 PM.


#50 Mochyn Pupur

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Posted 09 September 2021 - 01:55 AM

. . . Yawn

Same people hijacking a thread, raining contempt and derision on folk trying to discuss something about the game (hmm, kind of sounds like PGI's approach).

It appears the "cauldron" is getting firmly entrenched in the "Emperor's New Clothes" mentality of refusing to accept the obvious, e.g. rapid degeneration in map reworking where is wasn't required in the first place, accepting maps that are riddled with bugs, badly put together, forced channelling that leaves slower mechs open to the new sniper meta/mentality, and the insistence that any changes suggested by PGI/cauldron are perfect and not open for review and re-evaluation.

The new maps are increasingly badly put together, the balances are everything but that, but what is worst, nothing is being done to make the game as a whole something fresh, engaging and more likely to encourage new players to come and try, then stay with it.

Many of the changes have simply transferred the toxic approach and shift in balance of the higher tiers, that was prevalent in FP/CW and moved it into QP (and look what that did for the FP/CW mode.)

How about introducing something along the lines of the faction rewards to reward consistent play, engagement, skill alongside any cadet bonuses, partially skill tree the trial mechs to make them more useful for the new player, introduce a mentoring system instead of "git gud" or you ought to expect to be ground into nothing by higher tier players. Most importantly, show respect and proper consideration when people like the OP, are willing to post something based on their experiences and shouldn't expect to be ganged up on by the usual suspects who have most likely forgotten what is was like to start the game however many years ago that was.

MWO will live or die on its player base. If you insist on driving people away, being disrespectful or dismissive of what they are saying, then you will have played a significant part in closing the game down - so think for a change.

#51 pattonesque

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Posted 09 September 2021 - 04:06 AM

More people are playing the game than have been in three years?

#52 pbiggz

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Posted 09 September 2021 - 04:57 AM

View PostPeppaPig, on 09 September 2021 - 01:55 AM, said:

multiple unreliable assertions


We did have a discussion. The discussion was about how the OP was, politely, wrong about his assertion. It's interesting to note how you think being told you are wrong is not a discussion, and it's only constructive when people act like sycophants and tell you how right you are.

Nobody's getting driven away. If you think you are, your ego is far to fragile. This game lives and dies by its playerbase, not by PGI/Cauldron changing things [Redacted]. Y'all got low alpha brawler meta and split queues and it almost killed this game. I, a life long mechwarrior fan, didn't play for over two years.

Now, this game is more popular than it's been basically since the gutting of community warfare, and that was in, what, 2017? Your entire thesis here is based on a reality which you have lovingly fabricated in your own head. People don't make games based on your fantasy world.

Edited by Armchair General, 10 September 2021 - 08:31 AM.


#53 Bamboozle Gold

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Posted 09 September 2021 - 05:05 AM

View PostPeppaPig, on 09 September 2021 - 01:55 AM, said:


It appears the "cauldron" is getting firmly entrenched in the "Emperor's New Clothes" mentality of refusing to accept the obvious, e.g. rapid degeneration in map reworking where is wasn't required in the first place, accepting maps that are riddled with bugs, badly put together, forced channelling that leaves slower mechs open to the new sniper meta/mentality, and the insistence that any changes suggested by PGI/cauldron are perfect and not open for review and re-evaluation.

I don't mean to deride you and some of your ideas seemed pretty cool but maybe you've misunderstood who is doing what. I'll try to describe briefly how I've understood the roles in development of MWO at the moment.

Cauldron is a community driven initiative with mostly very experienced players discussing and suggesting changes to the game's XML files. These changes can be things such as changing numerical values of specific weapons or mech chassis.

The map changes are not done by Cauldron but by a map designer that PGI has hired.

Changes outside of the numerical values would require a programmer who is familiar with the game engine to make changes. There is no such programmer at this time so those changes are not happening for now.

It's of course nice to discuss ideas for future but I think it's not really fair to blame the volunteers who are donating their time to improving game balance by adjusting numerical values for things which are outside their scope. Dunno man.

#54 ScrapIron Prime

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Posted 09 September 2021 - 05:15 AM

View Postpbiggz, on 09 September 2021 - 04:57 AM, said:

This game lives and dies by its playerbase, not by PGI/Cauldron changing things [Redacted]


[Redacted]

But yeah, a handful of people popping a vein in their forehead on the forum does not make a representative sample of the thousands who are playing the game, they're just loud. And with a 9 year old game having more players now than its had in recent years, I think things are going pretty well. Could they be better? Absolutely!

But one map or weapon combo isn't going to derail the entire game. It never has.

Edited by Armchair General, 10 September 2021 - 08:32 AM.
quote cleanup


#55 Thorqemada

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Posted 09 September 2021 - 09:52 AM

Well, the Cauldron is pretty much a MWO-balancing Ambitious-Player-[Redacted]!

The Ambitious-Player-[Redacted] tries to balance the game in accordance with their beliefs how a game should be balanced.

As for the people not in the [Redacted] they can speak with their money:
You buy Stuff you like the [Redacted]-MWO
You dont buy Stuff - you are ingored...

Thats it...accept it!

Edited by Armchair General, 10 September 2021 - 08:20 AM.


#56 pbiggz

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Posted 09 September 2021 - 10:20 AM

View PostThorqemada, on 09 September 2021 - 09:52 AM, said:

Well, the Cauldron is pretty much a MWO-balancing Ambitious-Player-[Redacted]!

The Ambitious-Player-[Redacted] tries to balance the game in accordance with their beliefs how a game should be balanced.

As for the people not in the [Redacted] they can speak with their money:
You buy Stuff you like the [Redacted]-MWO
You dont buy Stuff - you are ingored...

Thats it...accept it!


Ah the tried and true "everything I don't like is [Redacted] argument.

Edited by Armchair General, 10 September 2021 - 08:20 AM.
quote cleanup


#57 pattonesque

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Posted 09 September 2021 - 10:34 AM

get on the train to a better mwo



#58 Glymbol

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Posted 10 September 2021 - 12:01 AM

I think the root cause of problems in quick play, including one in this topic, is groups. It is not fun for tier 3 player to face the same tier 1 group three times in four matches in a row, that consists of 3 night gyrs plus a mad cat mk II all being sniper build. The same goes for missile boats + narc raven, light wolf pack etc. This is cancer in quick play.

#59 justcallme A S H

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Posted 10 September 2021 - 12:47 AM

View PostGlymbol, on 10 September 2021 - 12:01 AM, said:

1 group three times in four matches in a row, that consists of 3 night gyrs plus a mad cat mk II all being sniper build.


Max tonnage for a 4man is 280t

NTG (75t) x 3 = 225t
MC MKII 90t + 225t = 315t

35t over, not possible.

If you're going to overexaggerate a situation it is generally better to at least make sire it's in the realm of possibility first champ.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 10 September 2021 - 12:55 AM.


#60 Glymbol

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Posted 10 September 2021 - 01:17 AM

You are right this is not possible. Yes I got frustrated and exaggerated, it is always better to calm down before writing a post. I don't know it these players are a group or even if I saw the same players in three games. I didn't get any screenshots. However there were 3 night gyrs in the opposing team and at least in two games they were in the same lance, so I thought a group.

Edited by Glymbol, 10 September 2021 - 01:17 AM.






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