101 replies to this topic

[Jounulz]

Having come back after the recent changes, here's the problem:

There are simply too many mechs, that can do too much damage, at too long of a range.

The whole game is now (or will get there very soon) "Alpha Sniper Online." There are maps where you take two steps from your drop and lose 5-10% of your armor because someone can reach you from the other side of the map without having to move at all or barely.

HPG is probably the worse offender now. It was fine to make more parts of the map more accessible, but the combined effect is to make the damage/range issues even worse.

The game doesn't need to be tailored to the comp players/style of play so much that there's only one style of play/way to play a map.

Just one old fart's opinion...

[Vellron2005]

I agree that right now PGI is actively promoting "Sniper Online" type play, and this is most evident in Gauss having over 2000 meter range, while LRMs still have only 900 meters (both further increased by range skills and computers)

I do however disagree that all the maps are sniper oriented.. I would say all the maps, at least the new ones, are basically Canyon Network.

Polar has been ruined beyond all recognition. Canyon has been redone to be even more canyon-like.. HPG also made to be canyon like with loads of cover..

The last bastion of good mappaking is now Grim Plexus..

[pattonesque]

Jounulz, on 06 September 2021 - 10:11 AM, said:

Having come back after the recent changes, here's the problem:

There are simply too many mechs, that can do too much damage, at too long of a range.

The whole game is now (or will get there very soon) "Alpha Sniper Online." There are maps where you take two steps from your drop and lose 5-10% of your armor because someone can reach you from the other side of the map without having to move at all or barely.

HPG is probably the worse offender now. It was fine to make more parts of the map more accessible, but the combined effect is to make the damage/range issues even worse.

The game doesn't need to be tailored to the comp players/style of play so much that there's only one style of play/way to play a map.

Just one old fart's opinion...

Long range is very powerful. However, particularly in maps like new Canyon, new Polar, and new HPG, there are plenty of routes you can use with a lot of cover that will allow you to get within brawling range. When you get within brawling range, brawling weapons will tear snipers apart.

[Commoners]

Vellron2005, on 06 September 2021 - 10:27 AM, said:

I agree that right now PGI is actively promoting "Sniper Online" type play, and this is most evident in Gauss having over 2000 meter range, while LRMs still have only 900 meters (both further increased by range skills and computers)

I do however disagree that all the maps are sniper oriented.. I would say all the maps, at least the new ones, are basically Canyon Network.

Polar has been ruined beyond all recognition. Canyon has been redone to be even more canyon-like.. HPG also made to be canyon like with loads of cover..

The last bastion of good mappaking is now Grim Plexus..

If you want to run sniper builds you have to be able to rotate to power positions that punish the use of the covered lanes. You can't just stand on a hill like a turret in the new maps. Forcing people to be dynamic to stay relevant is good map making, not bad.

Conversely, brawlers can easily punish snipers who aren't dynamic and may have to divert their route to a different one if it's being covered down by too many guns. They have the advantage that snipers generally have to go on longer rotations to get into the spots to cover those alternate routes.

Grim Plexus just lets snipers stand in one of three spots without any dynamic thought or movement, and it has two points of contact that get fought over in every single game mode. The only way to move onto the enemy team if you aren't going to just walk into the open is by doing wide rotations, which route everyone to fight in the same place where there's actual cover for progress or hunkering down in. That's not good map design unless you're a big fan of roleplaying as a turret or you're a big Dale Earnhardt fan.

Gauss rifles have a 2000m range if you want to be doing 1 damage at that distance. Optimal has them sitting at 1000m if you're running a mech with both a 10% range quirk and full range nodes.

Edited by Commoners, 06 September 2021 - 10:55 AM.

[ScrapIron Prime]

HPG is pretty sniper friendly now, yes. But that will diminish a little once people become used to the map and learn not only where not to stand but also how to get up on a wall to eat a sniper's face.

As to play styles, wait until you get a face full of the new "triple-snub-plus-Ac/20." You'll be posting about that next.

[Capt Deadpool]

It's primarily the Gyr's that have changed the game from a sniping perspective, as you can't twist their damage. The buff to the chassis caused a pretty huge spike in people playing them, and the three new maps basically buffed them a second time.

There are definitely ways to counter them, but there is no doubt a group of skilled plays in Gyr's holding the best sniper positions are a force to be reckoned with now. Whether this is 'bad' or not is a matter of opinion, but it is certainly a shift from before.

Edited by Capt Deadpool, 06 September 2021 - 12:47 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

Jounulz, on 06 September 2021 - 10:11 AM, said:

There are maps where you take two steps from your drop and lose 5-10% of your armor because someone can reach you from the other side of the map without having to move at all or barely.

HPG is probably the worse offender now

Well given it takes around 45s to get from your Spawn to anywhere useful to shoot in HPG it is a LOT more than 2 steps for a start.


That aside - yes long range is a viable option now. Note I said now, because previously it was not other than cERPPC (which has been given zero buffs I might add). Previous to weapons changes brawling was ridiculous. You could just run at your enemy and win basically. Now the game is back to 2017-ish era where players once again need to actually think a little bit more about where and what they are doing. It's not as if the game hasn't been in this state before and at that point the population was also markedly higher and overall had a higher average skill - none of these things are bad for the game.

I have barely used long range in some 200 games now. In a 300-500m build on ANY map there are plenty of ways to approach and get close to the fight. You just can't NASCAR/YOLO anymore. Brawling takes abit of patience.

As for HPG specifically once you work out the map and it will take some players 100 games, there is a tonne of cover on the map. Some of the high ground cover is being removed I believe this month so that will also help, either way the center area is not without cover or angles for engagement.

Players simply need to be PATIENT and WAIT for the right time to tally-ho into battle as it is no longer within the first 90s of a match.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 06 September 2021 - 01:24 PM.

[KaptinOrk]

Capt Deadpool, on 06 September 2021 - 12:41 PM, said:

It's primarily the Gyr's that have changed the game from a sniping perspective, as you can't twist their damage. The buff to the chassis caused a pretty huge spike in people playing them, and the three new maps basically buffed them a second time.

There are definitely ways to counter them, but there is no doubt a group of skilled plays in Gyr's holding the best sniper positions are a force to be reckoned with now. Whether this is 'bad' or not is a matter of opinion, but it is certainly a shift from before.

I wondered why I've been seeing so many of them out there, what are the popular builds for the Night Gyrs?

[Gas Guzzler]

Have sniper alpha's even increased?

The OP was commenting in game on Forest Colony Classic because he got a "huge" alpha right after stepping out of his spawn. Not sure that is really a valid complaint.

Capt Deadpool, on 06 September 2021 - 12:41 PM, said:

It's primarily the Gyr's that have changed the game from a sniping perspective, as you can't twist their damage.

What do you mean you can't twist their damage? The only buff they got was to agility, firepower is the same.

[justcallme A S H]

Alphas have not increased at long range unless you count L-Gauss, which really isn't setting the world on fire.

The range they are useful at (ERL/Gauss) has increased though. Slightly for ERL and moderately for Gauss.

It isn't as if you're taking an extra 25dmg++ or anything though. And stepping out of spawn you're still 1400m away I think? No way you're eating any sizeable Alpha walking the proper ways out of the spawn.

[pattonesque]

Gas Guzzler, on 06 September 2021 - 01:42 PM, said:

Have sniper alpha's even increased?

The OP was commenting in game on Forest Colony Classic because he got a "huge" alpha right after stepping out of his spawn. Not sure that is really a valid complaint.



What do you mean you can't twist their damage? The only buff they got was to agility, firepower is the same.

well, you can't twist their gauss rifles. but the build I see used most often these days is 2Gauss/2 ERLL which is half twistable

[Capt Deadpool]

Gas Guzzler, on 06 September 2021 - 01:42 PM, said:

What do you mean you can't twist their damage? The only buff they got was to agility, firepower is the same.

Yep, same as before, only that there are a lot more of them now and they are much more effective than before due to agility and new maps. (Not necessarily complaining about them, BTW, just explaining to peeps why there are so many Gyr's nowadays and that they are really the ones who have changed the textures of battles from a sniping perspective.)

Edited by Capt Deadpool, 06 September 2021 - 02:19 PM.

[MadHornet]

I see the biggest issue with HPG is the accessibility to the wall is simply too far away to be an effective means of dispatching the snipers. Takes too much time and team attention away from the main body of the enemy to deal with a wall sniper because the ramps are on the outside and easily a 1 - 1.5k meter trip to get around and on them, by which point your team is dying and they're just waiting for you to walk up. You could say "why not just let the lights deal with it?" yeah, that is if you have any on the team, and they manage to not get oneshot because of an extremely predictable and defendable rear ramp.

EDIT: Probably even farther trip, considering the distance it takes to get to the gates in the first place.

Edited by MadHornet, 06 September 2021 - 02:55 PM.

[VeeOt Dragon]

i agree that there isn't really any change in actual potential damage numbers for long range weapons. honestly if any actual weapons systems have seen a buff of late it is the mid range stuff. (things like IS LPPC and a few others i can't remember off the top of my head.) the new map changes just leave more room for tactics other than nascar and brawl so you are seeing more of the longer range builds out there. as i don't play clan mechs i can't say anything about the Gyr or clan equipment.

honestly anything that brings in some diversity to builds and play styles is a plus in my book. things get stale when every map is the same half dozen mechs with the same 4 builds (maybe not quite that bad but it was getting there) and same rotation fest every single match.

(i seem to have fallen into an MRM kick lately so i have been taking a bit of a break from the game to think up something new to try. for a bit i was doing a bunch of LPPC as well. think i'll try for some Dakka ideas. trouble is that IS dakka is really heavy/space hungry for the damage output potential. well that and i suck with Gauss, been playing for 4+ years and the charge up mechanic still throws me off.)

[HauptmanT]

HPG is a great map. Took me a bit to get used to it, but I have yet to take any damage from wall snipers when I didnt initiate the fight. It's so easy to take cover from them.

Hunting snipers in a light, or fast medium is one of my favorite things to do now on HPG. Run the trench, and nobody can see you, get around into their 'spawn area' then go up the ramp for easy back shots on people too focused in advanced zoom. Easy kills!

Standing there face tanking an assault on the wall with a Spider is hilarious as well. Snipers tend to not be DPS builds, and the buffed little spiders are suprisingly tanky. But more often then not, I usually wreck them through the back armor because they get so tunnel visioned on sniping. Humbling a Dire Whale with a Firestarter or Spider and making them jump off the wall for their life is pretty funny.

If your not sniper hunting, use the cover in the middle of the map correctly, and they wont be an issue. The few times I do the wall sniping myself, I'm pretty hard pressed to find targets a lot of the time. People are learning. Not the alt-tabbers tho. They still feed me free damage. You know those people who stand at spawn for too long, because they dont have the attention span or patience to be ready when the fight starts... yeh those people. They are free damage. They give me time to get into position and blast them full of holes as they come out of the gate. In short, dont be those people.

As far as Forest colony Classic. Yeh there's a reason they redid those maps. Bringing em back wasnt a wise choice. Just dont go into the direction of the water, head to cover asap... and again, dont be slow to move at game start.

If you are alt-tabbed at match start, or move straight out towards the water direction, you deserve to get sniped. Git Guud!

[D A T A]

strange, as usually out of 12 mechs only 1-2 are snipers, the rest are not.
also, big alphas at range simply do not exist in this game

Edited by D A T A, 06 September 2021 - 03:30 PM.

[HauptmanT]

D A T A, on 06 September 2021 - 03:30 PM, said:

strange, as usually out of 12 mechs only 1-2 are snipers, the rest are not.
also, big alphas at range simply do not exist in this game

He's likely t4-t5. Those matches are not anything like "normal".

I've seen plenty of matches where half the team is up on the wall being a "sniper". Sometimes half their mech is MLs or SRMs too. It's a whole nother game in low tiers. And I love it.

[D A T A]

HauptmanT, on 06 September 2021 - 03:36 PM, said:

He's likely t4-t5. Those matches are not anything like "normal".

I've seen plenty of matches where half the team is up on the wall being a "sniper". Sometimes half their mech is MLs or SRMs too. It's a whole nother game in low tiers. And I love it.

the problem is that big alphas at range to not exist.....cerll are capped at max 2, IS erll at max 3, erppcs are max 2, gausses are max 2.....wtf

[ScrapIron Prime]

D A T A, on 06 September 2021 - 03:43 PM, said:

the problem is that big alphas at range to not exist.....cerll are capped at max 2, IS erll at max 3, erppcs are max 2, gausses are max 2.....wtf

True, but at the ranges we’re talking about in HPG… walls firing on middle arena targets… regular PPC and LL work just fine. The cap on them is 3 (sometimes 4) and 4. Add in AC/10’s and season to taste.

Of course, by that point we’ve gotten away from “I hate snipers” to “I hate anyone who shoots me”.

[pattonesque]

ScrapIron Prime, on 06 September 2021 - 04:57 PM, said:

Of course, by that point we’ve gotten away from “I hate snipers” to “I hate anyone who shoots me”.

ding ding ding we have a winner folks