24 replies to this topic

[Rkshz]

The game results table needs to be slightly improved - instead of "alive", need to show the "percentage" of the remaining life.
It's a trifle, but it's always interesting how much life the alive players have left.

[pbiggz]

this is definitely a change i agree would be important. Alot of "stomps" really arent stomps when you factor in how much or little armour the winning team has left. Damage could be close to even and you wouldnt even know

[GoodTry]

Oooh that would be interesting to see.

[D V Devnull]

I wonder how well this would work on the Faction Warfare version of the End-Of-Round displays, or if it would cause a serious issue of some kind...

By the way... This thread should be over in Feature Suggestions since we are talking about changing something, and not just merely working with what is already there, right?

~D. V. "voicing concerns about discussion & implementation of that remaining Mech percentage info" Devnull

[Curccu]

D V Devnull, on 13 September 2021 - 08:00 AM, said:

I wonder how well this would work on the Faction Warfare version of the End-Of-Round displays, or if it would cause a serious issue of some kind...

I don't see any issue there, just show how many dead mechs (like now) and how many % left on the one player is still sitting in.

[1453 R]

The problem with putting a thread in Feature Suggestions is that literally no one reads it. Not players, not devs, not even Internet scraper bots that're supposed to read* everything. Which is why, every time a mod moves a thread to Feature Suggestions, what they're actually doing is saying "stop talking about this."

Which is sad, because this would be an interesting thing to see.

[D V Devnull]

While this Thread and the idea within is going to get my SUPPORT here, it seems that I have two items to answer upon...

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Curccu, on 13 September 2021 - 08:20 AM, said:

I don't see any issue there, just show how many dead mechs (like now) and how many % left on the one player is still sitting in.

I suppose... Guess it could show the four boxes, and then "Alive @ ###%" next to that... Had to look at someone else's video first to fully get a grip on your thinking, but it does work in the end.

1453 R, on 13 September 2021 - 08:40 AM, said:

The problem with putting a thread in Feature Suggestions is that literally no one reads it. Not players, not devs, not even Internet scraper bots that're supposed to read* everything. Which is why, every time a mod moves a thread to Feature Suggestions, what they're actually doing is saying "stop talking about this."

Which is sad, because this would be an interesting thing to see.

Funny... I know that is NOT what the Mods are saying when they move a Thread around here. When a Thread is moved, what they are actually saying is "Please make better use of the Forums by using a lot MORE of it. Use the categories which are provided, and put the Threads in the right board areas. Don't let things become a disorganized mess around here, and enjoy being able to discuss things even better than before!" and all in order to give various types of Topics a proper venue in which to converse about all of it. They're literally trying to avoid Threads getting drowned before reasonable discussion can take place, and that includes any Thread/Category on the Forums we have here. The only exception to this is Threads that end up in "Off-Topic > Jettisoned Communication" and the sub-boards within, and those ones definitely have their reasons for being there.

---

...and with all of that said, I'm outta here for now. I'll catch up on any pertinent discussion later.

~D. V. "getting the Thread's idea now... while seeing someone else not understand why a Thread's move happens" Devnull

[LordNothing]

game already tracks damage done and damage taken, display the ratio on the score screen.

also maybe find a way to better rate kill share. this is likely already tracked as this is how you determine kmdds/kills/assists. its the percentage of damage you did to a kill.

another thing to track might be damage lethality. that is track the damage that lead to a mech's cause of death (namely damage against the component that killed the mech). this makes it easy to figure out total damage to lethal damage ratio. gives you enough data to determine who did scatter damage, who did concentrated damage and properly weight damage scores. differentiate kill stealers from efficient killers and solve a lot of other problems related to scoring. so that the guy who takes out a mech with 40 points of damage gets more for that damage than the guy who sandblasted it with lerms for 400 damage.

of course at some point its all just nitpicking.

[1453 R]

LordNothing, on 13 September 2021 - 03:30 PM, said:

game already tracks damage done and damage taken, display the ratio on the score screen.

also maybe find a way to better rate kill share. this is likely already tracked as this is how you determine kmdds/kills/assists. its the percentage of damage you did to a kill.

another thing to track might be damage lethality. that is track the damage that lead to a mech's cause of death (namely damage against the component that killed the mech). this makes it easy to figure out total damage to lethal damage ratio. gives you enough data to determine who did scatter damage, who did concentrated damage and properly weight damage scores. differentiate kill stealers from efficient killers and solve a lot of other problems related to scoring. so that the guy who takes out a mech with 40 points of damage gets more for that damage than the guy who sandblasted it with lerms for 400 damage.

of course at some point its all just nitpicking.

The issue, at least in part, is that not all scatter damage is useless, and a lot of these issues aren't. "Kill stealers", for example, could be someone getting in the last shot in a melee...or it could be someone who makes a risky dive to finish off a target that would've gotten away otherwise and kept shooting the team. Just the other day I "stole" a kill by managing to use terrain and my Stormcrow's speed to get close enough to a mostly cored-out Bushwacker to take it by surprise and finish it off despite it having fallen back behind three enemy assault 'Mechs, utterly safe from the 'Mech that had done most of the work. But not from me. Those were two rotary autocannons that didn't have another chance to rip at my team, and I paid a steep penalty in armor to secure that kill. Did I 'steal' that kill from whoever got the KMDD? Nah. They lost it, and I finished their work and aided my team in doing so. Punishing me for doing that would be a severe **** move.

Similarly, someone who did 800 damage but scored no kills may well have facilitated a number of those kills, or destroyed weapons or equipment that made the enemy easier to take down.

There's no such thing as Good Damage and Bad Damage. There's Good Damage and Better Damage, but you're never worse off for having shot someone unless you were being sneaky and taking the shot revealed your position.

[LordNothing]

1453 R, on 13 September 2021 - 03:46 PM, said:

The issue, at least in part, is that not all scatter damage is useless, and a lot of these issues aren't. "Kill stealers", for example, could be someone getting in the last shot in a melee...or it could be someone who makes a risky dive to finish off a target that would've gotten away otherwise and kept shooting the team. Just the other day I "stole" a kill by managing to use terrain and my Stormcrow's speed to get close enough to a mostly cored-out Bushwacker to take it by surprise and finish it off despite it having fallen back behind three enemy assault 'Mechs, utterly safe from the 'Mech that had done most of the work. But not from me. Those were two rotary autocannons that didn't have another chance to rip at my team, and I paid a steep penalty in armor to secure that kill. Did I 'steal' that kill from whoever got the KMDD? Nah. They lost it, and I finished their work and aided my team in doing so. Punishing me for doing that would be a severe **** move.

Similarly, someone who did 800 damage but scored no kills may well have facilitated a number of those kills, or destroyed weapons or equipment that made the enemy easier to take down.

There's no such thing as Good Damage and Bad Damage. There's Good Damage and Better Damage, but you're never worse off for having shot someone unless you were being sneaky and taking the shot revealed your position.

not saying that scatter damage is bad, or kill stealing, or anything else. these are just examples of things you can gleam from the data. the point of good stats is so that you can look at the numbers and see what each player contributed to the victory or defeat in as much detail as possible. also gives players better insight into their performance, help identify areas where they are weak or how they need to compensate to get good scores out of a preferred playstyle.

its also gives a better picture of the events in the game for scoring purposes. right now someone who takes a headshot at 600m gets less point than someone who lermed the target to death from the same range. the same data also shows you who took out what component, and then looking at the equipment that was destroyed can actually reward a kill against an arm with a gauss rifle more than say an arm with a small laser or no weapons at all. data is good.

of course at the end of the match the only stat that matters is victory.

[HauptmanT]

End of battle report has always been very meh...

Not enough info listed, and only available for a minute or so before ya get teh boot.
Wish the guys who designed it had spent a few hours playing War Thunder and taken some queues from them. It should pop up when you return to the hanger, and I'd love to see much more info listed:

Damage breakdown per weapon system being my main gripe. Sure I did 1000 damage, but how much of that was my PPCs? did I get a 20% hit rate with those PPCs and only do 200 damage with them, whilst my lasers did the other 800? Should I not ever use PPCs again? This could all be very useful info to have, and we know they track it, since we can look up lifetime. But why not per match?

As well as your idea of % remaining of the teams, as well as their activity. Was somebody active all match, or do they consistently hang back all match and try to vulture kills on damaged mechs every time you drop with them, having a very low activity score?

[Ekson Valdez]

In order to keep this board somewhat organized, this thread has been moved to Feature Suggestions.

[Rkshz]

pbiggz, on 13 September 2021 - 07:43 AM, said:

this is definitely a change i agree would be important. Alot of "stomps" really arent stomps when you factor in how much or little armour the winning team has left. Damage could be close to even and you wouldnt even know

yes, sometimes it seems that there was a "stomp", but in fact the team may have 8-12 almost dead mechs - that is, the losing team simply does not see it, but it turns out they simply did not finish

[1453 R]

WHELP. Here we are, at the Vault of Dead Words. Soon as the reminder redirect falls off the front page, no one will ever see this thread again. Sorry, Rkshz. It was a good try.

[pbiggz]

F

[LordNothing]

pbiggz, on 14 September 2021 - 11:20 AM, said:

F

it has been shipped off where threads go to die.

[D V Devnull]

Damnit... They asked for it... So now I drop some Common Sense on them...

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1453 R, on 14 September 2021 - 06:12 AM, said:

WHELP. Here we are, at the Vault of Dead Words. Soon as the reminder redirect falls off the front page, no one will ever see this thread again. Sorry, Rkshz. It was a good try.

pbiggz, on 14 September 2021 - 11:20 AM, said:

F

LordNothing, on 14 September 2021 - 01:41 PM, said:

it has been shipped off where threads go to die.

Hey, you three... How about, instead of being so Non-Constructive like you are right now, all of you congregate over in the "Support & Feedback > Website & Forum" Board area, and suggest to PGI that they put out a PSA on the Website News itself which advocates use of more of the Forum's Categories & Boards for discussion? Everything getting stacked together all at once in General Discussion unfortunately ONLY results in too many threads ALSO getting easily buried, which happens to not be conducive to discussion either. Like seriously, stop trying to reduce the Forums when they should expand. All that reducing does is push out people wanting to discuss stuff, because they end up feeling like there is NO room for even starting a thread anymore, or they feel like other discussions will bury their thread too quickly. That kind of thread-burying toxicity is one thing which the MWO Forums (and therefore, the Community at large) need to NOT have happen anymore!

EXTRA EDIT :: Heck, pardon my side-stepping a little here, but imagine if you were in a Grocery Store for a moment. Would you really want to have to travel to 5 different spots in the store for Drinks that should all have been organized on one aisle? Would you really want to have to travel to 5 different spots in the store for Various Bathroom-Related Cleaners that should all have been organized on one aisle? Would you really want to have to travel to 5 different spots in the store for Fruits & Vegetables that should all have been organized on one aisle? Would you really want to have to travel to 5 different spots in the store for Chips & Salsa that should all have been organized on one aisle? Would you really want to have to travel to 3 different spots in the store for Various Animal Food Types that should all have been organized on one aisle? I'm thinking by now that your answer to those questions would be "No" on every single one. Well, it so happens that by trying to keep EVERYTHING in the General Discussion Board area, all you're doing is making what should be organized in multiple Category areas into one oversize & jumbled mess that people end up digging through for far longer than they should ever have to. That is neither nice nor right.

~D. V. "one should seek for Forums to become a welcoming, better organized, and expanding space" Devnull




[Micro-Edit by the Post Author for some missed Formatting during the initial attempt to post... All Fixed Now!!!]
[And a second Edit by the Post Author to add the "Extra Edit" with something that really makes a person stop and think properly...]

Edited by D V Devnull, 14 September 2021 - 02:43 PM.

[1453 R]

Devnull.

Nobody ever reads Feature Suggestions. Ever.

And even if you got some forum users to do so? THE DEVELOPERS have never once, in the entire development history of Mechwarrior Online, read one single word from the Feature Suggestions category. Hell, the devs don't read the forums at all, with the occasional exception of Mark Nicholson. They rely on community manager people to distill The Community's feedback into a concise drip feed, and you know where CMs pull from?

GD. Reddit. Twitter. Twitch. More the latter three than GD, but certainly from nowhere else on the forums. If a thread doesn't have four hundred replies, the community management teams don't know it exists, and threads here in the Vault of Dead Words are lucky if they get one reply without being a transplant from GD. The forums are already the last place Community Management pays attention to, as cracked and insane as that is. A shabby, barely-used corner of the forums built specifically as a placebo to keep players out of the devs' collective hair sure as shootin' ain't on their list.

You can't fight that, no matter how much you carp. Hell, I only found this thread again because you quoted me in it and dragged my attention here forcibly. I hate it. I hate that the mods keep deep-sixing threads by sending them to this dusty little garage cabinet of a board that absolutely no one uses, without even the honesty of simply telling someone "Piranha is not taking player suggestions for game modifications at this time." They continue to let people think that threads here stand a ghost of a chance of being seen and maybe getting some traction, and I F@#$ING HATE IT!

So I call them on it. And I'm nasty about it. Because it's scummy and ugly and filthy and maybe if other folks joined me in calling them on it instead of excusing them for it, something would change.

Consider that, the next time you're calling for mods to kill more threads before they have a chance to get anywhere and accomplish anything.

[LordNothing]

D V Devnull, on 14 September 2021 - 02:19 PM, said:

Damnit... They asked for it... So now I drop some Common Sense on them...

---

Hey, you three... How about, instead of being so Non-Constructive like you are right now, all of you congregate over in the "Support & Feedback > Website & Forum" Board area, and suggest to PGI that they put out a PSA on the Website News itself which advocates use of more of the Forum's Categories & Boards for discussion? Everything getting stacked together all at once in General Discussion unfortunately ONLY results in too many threads ALSO getting easily buried, which happens to not be conducive to discussion either. Like seriously, stop trying to reduce the Forums when they should expand. All that reducing does is push out people wanting to discuss stuff, because they end up feeling like there is NO room for even starting a thread anymore, or they feel like other discussions will bury their thread too quickly. That kind of thread-burying toxicity is one thing which the MWO Forums (and therefore, the Community at large) need to NOT have happen anymore!

EXTRA EDIT :: Heck, pardon my side-stepping a little here, but imagine if you were in a Grocery Store for a moment. Would you really want to have to travel to 5 different spots in the store for Drinks that should all have been organized on one aisle? Would you really want to have to travel to 5 different spots in the store for Various Bathroom-Related Cleaners that should all have been organized on one aisle? Would you really want to have to travel to 5 different spots in the store for Fruits & Vegetables that should all have been organized on one aisle? Would you really want to have to travel to 5 different spots in the store for Chips & Salsa that should all have been organized on one aisle? Would you really want to have to travel to 3 different spots in the store for Various Animal Food Types that should all have been organized on one aisle? I'm thinking by now that your answer to those questions would be "No" on every single one. Well, it so happens that by trying to keep EVERYTHING in the General Discussion Board area, all you're doing is making what should be organized in multiple Category areas into one oversize & jumbled mess that people end up digging through for far longer than they should ever have to. That is neither nice nor right.

~D. V. "one should seek for Forums to become a welcoming, better organized, and expanding space" Devnull




[Micro-Edit by the Post Author for some missed Formatting during the initial attempt to post... All Fixed Now!!!]
[And a second Edit by the Post Author to add the "Extra Edit" with something that really makes a person stop and think properly...]

its just that every time a thread gets sent to feature suggestions, it dies. discussion dries up, and it gets buried. i worry the era of game forums are coming to an end, and for all the wrong reasons. ive posted in feature suggestions before and they never got traffic. i do sometimes visit the subforums but sometimes i feel like the only one that uses them.

i dont think people are in the wrong for posting ideas on gd. i think there is a distinction to be made from having an idea, and having an actual feature request. the former poses a what if scenario, while the the latter is more a formal request that xyz get implemented into game. of course you can always split hairs and have yet another sub forum that doesn't get traffic.

i also don't like putting time into posts for them to get buried. the point of forums is to drum up discussion, not suppress it.

[D V Devnull]

Alright... They wanted to force my mind to the top of its' capability... Hello, deluge...

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1453 R, on 14 September 2021 - 03:19 PM, said:

<<< Quote Shrunk, Click To View >>>

Spoiler

Devnull.

Nobody ever reads Feature Suggestions. Ever.

And even if you got some forum users to do so? THE DEVELOPERS have never once, in the entire development history of Mechwarrior Online, read one single word from the Feature Suggestions category. Hell, the devs don't read the forums at all, with the occasional exception of Mark Nicholson. They rely on community manager people to distill The Community's feedback into a concise drip feed, and you know where CMs pull from?

GD. Reddit. Twitter. Twitch. More the latter three than GD, but certainly from nowhere else on the forums. If a thread doesn't have four hundred replies, the community management teams don't know it exists, and threads here in the Vault of Dead Words are lucky if they get one reply without being a transplant from GD. The forums are already the last place Community Management pays attention to, as cracked and insane as that is. A shabby, barely-used corner of the forums built specifically as a placebo to keep players out of the devs' collective hair sure as shootin' ain't on their list.

You can't fight that, no matter how much you carp. Hell, I only found this thread again because you quoted me in it and dragged my attention here forcibly. I hate it. I hate that the mods keep deep-sixing threads by sending them to this dusty little garage cabinet of a board that absolutely no one uses, without even the honesty of simply telling someone "Piranha is not taking player suggestions for game modifications at this time." They continue to let people think that threads here stand a ghost of a chance of being seen and maybe getting some traction, and I F@#$ING HATE IT!

So I call them on it. And I'm nasty about it. Because it's scummy and ugly and filthy and maybe if other folks joined me in calling them on it instead of excusing them for it, something would change.

Consider that, the next time you're calling for mods to kill more threads before they have a chance to get anywhere and accomplish anything.

Oh dear, '1453 R'... You finally went and made the biggest mistake you could have with your words. I will even calmly ask that you calm down in the midst of my reply to you here, please... Why? Because it happens that I have quote-unquote "carped" around here, and caused things to get fixed so they work properly. Want examples? Here are three of the ones (albeit more from the Bug Repair type of stuff) which I have been the hand of change for...

-->> https://mwomercs.com/forums/topic/280379-bug-forum-board-access-problem/
-->> https://mwomercs.com/forums/topic/278076-found-a-broken-website-and-forums-link-to-the-off-topic-area/
-->> https://mwomercs.com/forums/topic/268967-fixed-bug-vulcan-collector-badge-missing/

...because it does happen that you can incur positive change, if you're willing to keep your head level like I did. No one is out to tell you that Feature Suggestions are not being taken, as they very much are being taken, even if rather quietly. The only message being sent is to use the correct part of the Forums for it. If you either want the rule requiring the correct board to be used to be rescinded, or want PGI themselves to acknowledge the failure of both them and the Community to use more of the boards and that they should be getting used & read more, then all you need do is to start a level-headed discussion over in "Support & Feedback > Website & Forum" to get the process started. (I would personally give you my complete & total SUPPORT on making everyone acknowledge their laziness and the need to use more Forum areas! As things stand, it would be easier for PGI to do the News Post about it anyway! All you have but do is make the first step... Who knows, maybe I'll happen to be the one that goes and does that... *grin* ...) PGI does listen, even if silently or slowly.

LordNothing, on 14 September 2021 - 03:37 PM, said:

<<< Quote Shrunk, Click To View >>>

Spoiler

its just that every time a thread gets sent to feature suggestions, it dies. discussion dries up, and it gets buried. i worry the era of game forums are coming to an end, and for all the wrong reasons. ive posted in feature suggestions before and they never got traffic. i do sometimes visit the subforums but sometimes i feel like the only one that uses them.

i dont think people are in the wrong for posting ideas on gd. i think there is a distinction to be made from having an idea, and having an actual feature request. the former poses a what if scenario, while the the latter is more a formal request that xyz get implemented into game. of course you can always split hairs and have yet another sub forum that doesn't get traffic.

i also don't like putting time into posts for them to get buried. the point of forums is to drum up discussion, not suppress it.

Forums should never end up dying, and neither should any of the Boards within... By now, it should show from my posts that having Forums is better than not, including because of the posts which I've linked when replying to '1453 R' just above. There is seriously NOT any suppression being attempted, and I would like to think that is visible from the way in which I am posting, and also visible in the friendly way by which Moderator 'Ekson Valdez' posted up above all this recent chatter. Please do not assume the worst of 100% of people, as not everyone is that way!

Further, I do get the difference between a mere "What If...?" and an actual request for Change to something. This thread actually crossed that boundary into a Request For Change to something, and has received my personal will to be a SUPPORT of having it implemented, as 'Rkshz's Idea for the Final Mech Condition indication really is a very good one to have. Heck, 'Rkshz' themself even states with their Title that this Thread does indeed happen to be a Proposal to change part of how MWO's End-Of-Round Screen works. Or are my eyes screwed up in visually seeing where that difference is very blatantly displayed?

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...and now I am outta here again. There is so much to do but so little time, and even a few things to end up temporarily on the back-burner for not much later.

~D. V. "trigger me, and I will show you a more positive outlook, even with MWO Forum areas" Devnull





[Single Fast Edit by the Post Author for a frustrating small Formatting-related error incurred during posting... It's fixed now!!!]
[And a second Edit because they missed one little Emoji too... Shame on them... Oh well, all fixed now!!!]

Edited by D V Devnull, 14 September 2021 - 05:51 PM.