182 replies to this topic

[1453 R]

Gas Guzzler, on 05 October 2021 - 07:54 AM, said:

What makes me sad is a pandemic and a vaccine have become political issues.

To borrow (and mangle) a famous quote:

"The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world that sin is a political issue."

[Gas Guzzler]

Pika, on 05 October 2021 - 04:21 AM, said:

While I don't disagree with moving it to OT, I wasn't aware "People Exist" was a political stance or statement.

Not very cool, tbh.

Yeah, it isn't. Let people be who they want to be and say whatever they want in chat as long as it isn't hateful, divisive, or disruptive.

However, I don't know what the expectations of the statements in question are. Simply making the statement every match isn't convincing anyone of anything, nobody is going in to a match with one opinion, seeing that opening statement, and then altering their point of view in anyway.

We live in a society where you can present someone with literal science, facts, and data, and they can turn around and say "I did my own research, I know better". You aren't changing anyone's mind in an online game, that's just the sad reality.

[Escef]

MT Slayer, on 05 October 2021 - 07:17 AM, said:

The blocking is broken I still have to listen to Sean Lang no matter how many times I block and un block him before during or after a match.

Blocking works for text chat, but for some reason VOIP blocks don't carry between matches.

[Escef]

McNuggernauts, on 05 October 2021 - 04:21 AM, said:

I'm not the kind of person to imply things in my speech, I say what I mean and nothing extra should be read into it. If you think I implied anything other than the exact words I said then that's just you and your biases coming to the surface.

You said the original policy was neutral. You said the change was allowing "left wing" rhetoric. What makes human rights "left wing" in your world? You implied a hell of a lot about your outlook. If that's the closest you've got to clarifying your ideas, perhaps you should have not responded at all?

[The winter wolf]

Freedom is a double-edged sword. Would those who are champion trans rights be OK with those who are championing say right leaning views? How about a team that is "Blue Lives Matter", how about "Men's Rights". How about "Abortion is murder" or "Segregate the Races". See how this goes downhill fast? To be clear I'm not a supporter of any of these as team names, nor am I supporter of a "Trans rights" as a team. I'm a registered independent myself and stay pretty middle ground. You're trans, good for you, and what does your sexual orientation or gender identity have to do with shooting a robot? Nothing, so stop shoving it down my throat, frankly I don't care. Not that I don't care about you as a person, but this isn't a place for your platform, and it isn't for mine. I'm sure I've played with some trans people in this game through the 4 years I've played this game and will continue to do so.

For PGI's part, it's frustrating that they reversed this. I guess next year they will be OK with a team called "{Godwin's Law} Pride" because they don't want to discriminate right?

[pattonesque]

trans people existing is shoving it down your throat?

[The winter wolf]

pattonesque, on 05 October 2021 - 08:53 AM, said:

trans people existing is shoving it down your throat?

People spamming it in chat yes. Making a public team, no, but then you have to open it up to all view points as I mentioned above. I'd really rather not be a tourney support (like I am on my main account) supporting a bunch of political statements for team names. I don't care about your gender identity or your political leanings, frankly no one in a robot game should.

And let's be clear PGI not having the team name didn't have anything to do with them denying existing or not supporting them. It just wasn't good enough for them so they decided to make it a hill to die on. Calling it anti-trans or whatever is BS and they know it. They just wanted to keep their platform clear of controversy, instead people decided to make it one and here we are.

Edited by Paladin22, 05 October 2021 - 09:01 AM.

[1453 R]

Blue Lives Matter? Depends on why they named their team that. if it's truly solidarity with LEO folks, then no, I wouldn't have an issue. Sadly, most 'Blue Lives Matter' folks are trumpeting that phrase mostly because they see it as an easy way to sneak "Black Lives Don't Matter' past the public. They're using it as a crowbar to try and deny and belittle other folks' rights and causes, which I do not find kosher, no.

Men's Rights? Sure. Why not.

Abortion is Murder? Seems an odd way to name a team, but sure, why not. I'm allowed to disagree vehemently, but I'm also allowed to not have anything to do with your team and mute/report you when you bellow that nonsense in chat.

Segregate the Races? I'd point out that there's a difference between someone saying "I would like the same rights, privileges, and freedoms that the majority enjoy, please" and someone saying "I would like to deny other people the rights, privileges, and freedoms that I enjoy, please." One of those things is not like the other. So no, I wouldn't be down for StR as a team name, but not because I don't want right-aligned folk speaking up. More like "actively promoting hatred and racism seems like a bad idea so can we maybe not?"

And as Pattonesque said - for an awful, awful, awful lot of people here, the mere existence of LGBTQ+ folks is "shoving it down our throat". The mere existence of Trans Rights/Trans Fights as a team is too much. The mere mention of anything related to LGBTQ+ folk is too much. We're all just supposed to be Over There, leading our shameful lives where nobody can see it.

Here's a nice, easy piece of shorthand for anyone still reading: if you begin a sentence with "I support trans rights, but...", then you do not in fact support trans rights. Which is fine. Trust me, we're all used to you not supporting our rights. But we're not gonna congratulate you on not supporting our rights either, and we're not gonna stop demanding them just because you don't want to give them to us.

[pattonesque]

Paladin22, on 05 October 2021 - 09:00 AM, said:

People spamming it in chat yes. Making a public team, no, but then you have to open it up to all view points as I mentioned above. I'd really rather not be a tourney support (like I am on my main account) supporting a bunch of political statements for team names. I don't care about your gender identity or your political leanings, frankly no one in a robot game should.

And let's be clear PGI not having the team name didn't have anything to do with them denying existing or not supporting them. It just wasn't good enough for them so they decided to make it a hill to die on. Calling it anti-trans or whatever is BS and they know it. They just wanted to keep their platform clear of controversy, instead people decided to make it one and here we are.

you do care about it, though. If you didn't care about it it'd be like someone spamming "I would like a nice steak dinner" in chat. You'd mute them and move on. You, ah, doth protest too much.

[Chadoken]

I love this because the people shouting 'stop shoving this down my throat!' would find that it wouldn't be 'shoved down their throats' if they stopped making a big deal about trans people actually existing.

And see, the effect is two-fold, if you don't have strong negative feelings about the existence of trans people, then you won't care when you notice them, and when you don't care when you notice them, then they won't have to be vocal about their existence.

The problem is that the people who are ignorant of the fact that trans people are being oppressed are mixed in with and making the same arguments as the people who don't want them to exist so every time you whine about trans people being visible, that's what you're supporting.

[The winter wolf]

Nickiepoo, on 05 October 2021 - 09:25 AM, said:

I love this because the people shouting 'stop shoving this down my throat!' would find that it wouldn't be 'shoved down their throats' if they stopped making a big deal about trans people actually existing.

And see, the effect is two-fold, if you don't have strong negative feelings about the existence of trans people, then you won't care when you notice them, and when you don't care when you notice them, then they won't have to be vocal about their existence.

The problem is that the people who are ignorant of the fact that trans people are being oppressed are mixed in with and making the same arguments as the people who don't want them to exist so every time you whine about trans people being visible, that's what you're supporting.

No I just don't think "people being visible" belongs in a game. Does PGI ban trans people from playing, white people, gay people anyone? No, then this doesn't affect you and it's not your personal platform to make a statement.

[Chadoken]

Paladin22, on 05 October 2021 - 09:34 AM, said:

No I just don't think "people being visible" belongs in a game. Does PGI ban trans people from playing, white people, gay people anyone? No, then this doesn't affect you and it's not your personal platform to make a statement.

So all games should only feature white dudes forever?

[Commoners]

The people who really, truly want society stratified and/or segregated by factors like race, gender, sex, religion, and other factors that are considered protected statuses when speaking about human rights rely on disingenuous arguments that allow them to use more moderate participants and their arguments as a smokescreen. An absolute victory for them is achieving that stratification and separation of people based on those factors, a minor victory in a community is maintaining a status quota where those targeted groups are shamed into silence and thus cannot rock the boat away from that shamed status.

It's why the, "Well no one should be allowed to say anything, then," argument is adopted both by the people who legitimately don't want to see allchat in game and also by the people who use the same name on their MWO and reddit accounts where they have histories of openly equivocating lgbtq people with rapists or sex offenders and blame them for imaginary things like 'societal degeneracy.'

A good example in this thread was Cherokee Rose, whose posts swung so far into "oh ****" territory that they got deleted, even when compared to ones that are currently still standing in this thread that could be construed as abrasive by people standing on the opposing side of the fence from each other. He started with that same moderate stance, and eventually blew his top and started posting some really egregious stuff that dropped the mask and revealed his actual, honest intent and opinions on the subjects in this thread. Edit: (Just to be clear, he's not one of those mwo/reddit accounts that I know of. He just blew up in this thread.)

Edited by Commoners, 05 October 2021 - 09:47 AM.

[The winter wolf]

1453 R, on 05 October 2021 - 09:01 AM, said:

Blue Lives Matter? Depends on why they named their team that. if it's truly solidarity with LEO folks, then no, I wouldn't have an issue. Sadly, most 'Blue Lives Matter' folks are trumpeting that phrase mostly because they see it as an easy way to sneak "Black Lives Don't Matter' past the public. They're using it as a crowbar to try and deny and belittle other folks' rights and causes, which I do not find kosher, no.

Men's Rights? Sure. Why not.

Abortion is Murder? Seems an odd way to name a team, but sure, why not. I'm allowed to disagree vehemently, but I'm also allowed to not have anything to do with your team and mute/report you when you bellow that nonsense in chat.

Segregate the Races? I'd point out that there's a difference between someone saying "I would like the same rights, privileges, and freedoms that the majority enjoy, please" and someone saying "I would like to deny other people the rights, privileges, and freedoms that I enjoy, please." One of those things is not like the other. So no, I wouldn't be down for StR as a team name, but not because I don't want right-aligned folk speaking up. More like "actively promoting hatred and racism seems like a bad idea so can we maybe not?"

I'm glad you'd be OK with that it shows maturity. But I would wonder if we have those teams next year how would that help or hurt the community. Do you really think that would bring us together or promote tribalism. My point is none of those team names belong because they don't have anything to do with the game.

Quote

And as Pattonesque said - for an awful, awful, awful lot of people here, the mere existence of LGBTQ+ folks is "shoving it down our throat". The mere existence of Trans Rights/Trans Fights as a team is too much. The mere mention of anything related to LGBTQ+ folk is too much. We're all just supposed to be Over There, leading our shameful lives where nobody can see it.

Shameful lives? Again, I don't care what you do in your personal life. Nor should you care what I do. The mere existence of a trans team isn't too much for me, it just has nothing to do with the game.

Quote

Here's a nice, easy piece of shorthand for anyone still reading: if you begin a sentence with "I support trans rights, but...", then you do not in fact support trans rights. Which is fine. Trust me, we're all used to you not supporting our rights. But we're not gonna congratulate you on not supporting our rights either, and we're not gonna stop demanding them just because you don't want to give them to us.

Again, this has nothing to do with the game. You are just making a statement about your personal life or that of your friends. Go on your own personal page, a reddit post anything and get support there. Don't expect me or a company (well toss that out the window thanks PGI) to cater towards you. Your trans, good for you, your friend is, more power to them. I'm not going to play the game any different. I'm not going to attack you any less or more in game because of your gender identity. I don't harbor any ill will towards you or anyone I am very Libertarian in that way. I just want to play the game, leave politics out of it. That is my point. PGI tried to take the politics out of the game and here we are.

Nickiepoo, on 05 October 2021 - 09:36 AM, said:

So all games should only feature white dudes forever?

You know that's a strawman and the only response you're getting is that.

[Chadoken]

Paladin22, on 05 October 2021 - 09:44 AM, said:

My point is none of those team names belong because they don't have anything to do with the game.

Any team name that isn't lore friendly is now banned!

Oh wait, that's not actually what you meant is it. Hmm, I wonder why it's this one 'nothing to do with the game' team name that you take objection to.

Paladin22, on 05 October 2021 - 09:44 AM, said:

You know that's a strawman and the only response you're getting is that.

No dude, you're saying that you don't want specific people to be visible in games, so who is allowed to be visible in games? Because people threw a **** fit when Battletech included a 'Them' gender option which you, presumably, also have a problem with which you're going to try to explain away as anything other than bigotry.

If you don't have a problem with it then you're contradicting yourself so which is it?

Edited by Nickiepoo, 05 October 2021 - 09:50 AM.

[1453 R]

I put this image on most of my 'Mechs, somewhere or other. It's my own little personal trans lady acknowledgement, an icon I enjoy displaying on my machines for all of the exactly zero people who look at other folks' deckles before they get burned off.

According to your logic, Paladin22 (and 6th Messenger, and Danichi, and all the rest), this should get me banned from MWO, yes? After all, I'm sowing discord by aggressively forcing my beliefs down others' throats and using MWO as a soapbox to espouse my own personal beliefs at the direct expense of other folks. By stacking two deckles on top of each other to make a cheeky little trans-woman symbol that pretty much nobody but me will even see, let alone recognize, I am degrading the MWO experience for the entire playerbase and making MWO a worse place to be for every single cis player in it. How dare I push the LGBTQ+ Agenda in this game about shooting robits by using deckles to decorate my 'Mechs!

Suppose y'all better get to setting up a mass reporting campaign to get me to stop putting that deckle combination on my robits. Gotta think of the children, after all. Gotta think of the poor, impressionable children...

[The winter wolf]

Nickiepoo, on 05 October 2021 - 09:47 AM, said:

Any team name that isn't lore friendly is now banned! Oh wait, that's not actually what you meant is it. Hmm, I wonder why it's this one 'nothing to do with the game' team name that you take objection to.

That is EXACTLY my point. Let's keep the name lore friendly. Keep politics out.

Quote

No dude, you're saying that you don't want specific people to be visible in games, so who is allowed to be visible in games? Because people threw a **** fit when Battletech included a 'Them' gender option which you, presumably, also have a problem with which you're going to try to explain away as anything other than bigotry. If you don't have a problem with it then you're contradicting yourself so which is it?

When did I say that? Now you're making stuff up. In fact I pretty clearly said I don't care who you are I just want to play the game. You keep making this about you or a certain group, like "look at me I'm important" you're not you are just a human like anyone else. I don't know what you're talking about with Battletech so don't rope me into it. I don't care whatever pronoun you used, made up or not, fine it doesn't bother me. But don't spam in chat "I identify as this today" no one cares.

[pattonesque]

Paladin22, on 05 October 2021 - 09:59 AM, said:

When did I say that? Now you're making stuff up. In fact I pretty clearly said I don't care who you are I just want to play the game. You keep making this about you or a certain group, like "look at me I'm important" you're not you are just a human like anyone else. I don't know what you're talking about with Battletech so don't rope me into it. I don't care whatever pronoun you used, made up or not, fine it doesn't bother me. But don't spam in chat "I identify as this today" no one cares.

You care. It bothers you enough that you're making some of your first posts ever on this forum. No other topic motivated you like this one has. Otherwise you'd just mute and move on.

[Chadoken]

Paladin22, on 05 October 2021 - 09:59 AM, said:

no one cares.

You quite clearly care my dude

[Commoners]

Paladin22, on 05 October 2021 - 08:41 AM, said:

Freedom is a double-edged sword. Would those who are champion trans rights be OK with those who are championing say right leaning views? How about a team that is "Blue Lives Matter", how about "Men's Rights". How about "Abortion is murder" or "Segregate the Races". See how this goes downhill fast? To be clear I'm not a supporter of any of these as team names, nor am I supporter of a "Trans rights" as a team. I'm a registered independent myself and stay pretty middle ground. You're trans, good for you, and what does your sexual orientation or gender identity have to do with shooting a robot? Nothing, so stop shoving it down my throat, frankly I don't care. Not that I don't care about you as a person, but this isn't a place for your platform, and it isn't for mine. I'm sure I've played with some trans people in this game through the 4 years I've played this game and will continue to do so.

For PGI's part, it's frustrating that they reversed this. I guess next year they will be OK with a team called "{Godwin's Law} Pride" because they don't want to discriminate right?

Also, revisiting this with the list of names just to add some clarification since PGI's unambiguously announced stance is that human rights are not considered a political subject. That could be derived into trans rights, men's rights (though of course nuance is required here considering that this phrase has been coopted by groups that have enshrined individuals like Elliot Rodger,) women's rights, etc. are all to be considered nonpolitical subjects in PGI's moderation.

Blue Lives Matter is political because occupation is not a protected status when it comes to human rights.

Abortion is Murder as a team name is clearly political, especially in the context of the U.S. I think it would be insincere to argue about abortion as a subject matter NOT being political. The same could be said for a group being named "Abortion Rights." Either has very clearly crossed over the political line.

Segregate the Races as a team name would directly oppose recognized human rights when it comes to race. I'm pretty sure it would be really, really easy to also lump it straight in with hate speech at that point.

Godwin's Law filter-name Pride wouldn't even need an argument to be recognized as have a clear association with a group that is inarguably a hate group. It's the same reason that decals and decal combinations used to make symbology associated with hate groups aren't allowed. Someone drawing a swastika on their back armor and marking their mech with 1488s doesn't need to be in this community, frankly.

I know most of these were hyperbole, but seriously. Statuses that are considered protected as far as human rights go are pretty clearly defined by global consensus in organizations like the United Nations.

I guess the "hur hur hur i'm so smart" loophole that someone thinks they're so clever for discovering with this all being said is using a protected group as part of their platform to harass other groups, which is just like... Covered in the ToS. If someone made a group named "Christian Rights" and started telling lgbtq people that they're going to hell in allchat in every match that would be a clear violation of ToS. If they wanted to open every match with "I love Jesus" then go for it, or if a Muslim group unironically opened matches with "Praise be to Allah" then whatever, right?

Expression of diversity and character doesn't hurt MWO. Expression of those statuses that are enshrined globally as part of your human rights don't hurt you.

Edited by Commoners, 05 October 2021 - 10:21 AM.