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No Spam In Chat, Recent Controversy Opinion


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#161 NotSoDeadpool15

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Posted 05 October 2021 - 02:57 PM

I'm just hoping some of the people who came to this and the other thread thinking, "why do we need to talk about trans rights" read some of these posts and left going "oh that's why"

#162 The6thMessenger

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Posted 05 October 2021 - 03:28 PM

View Post1453 R, on 05 October 2021 - 09:49 AM, said:

Posted Image

I put this image on most of my 'Mechs, somewhere or other. It's my own little personal trans lady acknowledgement, an icon I enjoy displaying on my machines for all of the exactly zero people who look at other folks' deckles before they get burned off.

According to your logic, Paladin22 (and 6th Messenger, and Danichi, and all the rest), this should get me banned from MWO, yes? After all, I'm sowing discord by aggressively forcing my beliefs down others' throats and using MWO as a soapbox to espouse my own personal beliefs at the direct expense of other folks.


Yikes. Here's the big difference -- we don't constantly look behind you. We do however listen to the comms, or to the chat-box, to communicate effectively on the field.

Again, no one here is saying you don't exist, or your political stance is wrong, we just don't ******* care, as the thing you are saying it's not about the game. Don't clutter the chat-box or the air-space on what is otherwise more important information. Merely "Mute" or "Block" does not change the fact that it is still intrusive.

This is why politics should be outlawed in here, people like you just devolve it into misconstrusion of our actual position, emotional and intellectual black-mail in many cases, and just authoritarian in-or-out.

I mean "banned" as a player immediately? Really? Ricky is right.
Spoiler


Unfortunately, the idea of just silencing people by getting them fired, banned -- basically cancelled, that is not really uncommon these days.

You know why they posted an apology? That's not because they really care about trans issues, no, that is to avoid being cancelled, that is to avoid the ire of the mob -- that did not do any good. Because current politics right now is mired by tribalism, you either agree with them, or you can GTFO. The government won't punish you, but the social environment that bit it will, the legal court be damned. This creates an echo-chamber, that people are forced to agree to people just so they could continue with their day to day life -- as in having a job.

While I can't really say what their stance about it exactly, but here's just my paradigm on this:

If they (all companies) really care about LGBT, then they don't have a Pride Month, they have a Pride Year -- and every year is Pride Year, and they won't skimp out on those places like Middle East to not put the damn rainbow. But that is not the case, you know why? Because they just need to sell you **** -- that LGBT is sadly commodified.

And as for the Emotional Black-Mail part. Here's the thing, what I agree with for rights and legislation is what is moral and reasonable, no need to tack in "trans" rights or just "human" rights for it, nor agree with all of it, just parts that are reasonable.

We can't just accept things uncritically and without question, or because you'd be sad or a victim, or we'd be branded as -ists or -phobes, or we'll fire you. If it's truly correct and moral, then let said proposals stand on it's own merits.

Like what are you people afraid of? If it's reasonable that stands up to scrutiny, then it will be accepted.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 05 October 2021 - 03:54 PM.


#163 ChairmanMauzer

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Posted 05 October 2021 - 03:45 PM

That's an awful lot of words for someone who claims "we just don't ******* care".

How exactly is your apathy a justification to needlessly silence someone? After all, you have the means, in game, to silence them yourself.

#164 The6thMessenger

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Posted 05 October 2021 - 03:51 PM

View PostChairmanMauzer, on 05 October 2021 - 03:45 PM, said:

That's an awful lot of words for someone who claims "we just don't ******* care".


Because getting in the way of the part we actually care about -- as in the game.

And unlike you people, I like to actually appeal to people's reason by framing what I want to say proper as I see fit, with enough information to make my point.

I guess that's rather alien to people that basically say "agree or else {consequence here}".

View PostChairmanMauzer, on 05 October 2021 - 03:45 PM, said:

How exactly is your apathy a justification to needlessly silence someone? After all, you have the means, in game, to silence them yourself.


It's basically "if you don't believe in god, then why do you talk about it" for atheist, same answer really.

#165 pattonesque

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Posted 05 October 2021 - 03:57 PM

View PostThe6thMessenger, on 05 October 2021 - 03:51 PM, said:


It's basically "if you don't believe in god, then why do you talk about it" for atheist, same answer really.


you don't believe in trans people and want to make sure everyone knows it?

Edited by pattonesque, 05 October 2021 - 03:58 PM.


#166 The6thMessenger

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Posted 05 October 2021 - 04:04 PM

View Postpattonesque, on 05 October 2021 - 03:57 PM, said:

you don't believe in trans people and want to make sure everyone knows it?


Oh, so trans-people are gods now? No wonder I can't question them.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 05 October 2021 - 04:04 PM.


#167 1453 R

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Posted 05 October 2021 - 04:17 PM

View PostThe6thMessenger, on 05 October 2021 - 03:28 PM, said:

[Snip for brevity]


I mean...one thing to be afraid of is being dismissed as "you people", like we're some sort of foreign species.

Again - transphobics in these 'discussions' like to hide behind "I'm for ALL rights" or "I'm not for trans rights, I'm for human rights." Which is an absolutely meaningless statement, a smarmy deflection and a disingenuous dismissal of very real concerns because the problem is not that ALL people don't have any rights, it's that SOME people don't have some rights. An imbalance that occurs when a given majority of folk is allowed to vilify, demonize, castigate, and otherwise render another group of people into Other. When someone decides that they can talk to "those people" or "you people" and place them on the far side of an unnecessary divide.

You specifically, 6th Messenger, decided to pull the trigger on this Internet goblin fight when you tried to demand that nobody ever talk about transgender issues ever again. You don't like the subject. You don't think it merits attention. You don't think trans folk need any more rights than what they've already got and don't see the point. You think it's all a bunch of dumb Murican Internet baloney and the world would be better off without any of us in it.

Cool. You can hold that opinion. And I can disagree with it. If you put that opinion on the Internet, I can argue against it. I can call it out for being what it is and point out the deep flaws in it. Some people will agree with me. Others will agree with you. What neither of us gets to do, and why you've earned a very prominent seat on my personal s@#$list, is demand the other shut up and never speak again.

By all means speak your piece, 6th Messenger. Danichi, too. Even Cherokee. All of you, speak your piece. I will not report you, I will not say you nay, I will not tell you to shut up. I will tell you exactly why you're wrong, why your opinion is both subjectively and objectively garbage, and why it's not an opinion any reasonable person should hold. But I will not demand you change it, I will not attempt to silence it, and I will not attempt to undercut your personhood to discredit it.

Frankly, I don't need to. Y'all are doing a great job of discrediting your position yourselves.

#168 The6thMessenger

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Posted 05 October 2021 - 04:59 PM

View Post1453 R, on 05 October 2021 - 04:17 PM, said:

I mean...one thing to be afraid of is being dismissed as "you people", like we're some sort of foreign species.


Here we go again with self-victimizing. You're going to pull a Tropic Thunder on me "what do you mean you people"? Here's one more, "don't go full r-tard".

Do you know what is the smallest minority of them all? The individual. So what do you think individuals use to address a collective?

View Post1453 R, on 05 October 2021 - 04:17 PM, said:

Again - transphobics in these 'discussions' like to hide behind "I'm for ALL rights" or "I'm not for trans rights, I'm for human rights." Which is an absolutely meaningless statement, a smarmy deflection and a disingenuous dismissal of very real concerns because the problem is not that ALL people don't have any rights, it's that SOME people don't have some rights.


The hypocrisy there is that you just used -phobic to dismiss others as wrong. That is what radical islamists do with their "islamophobe" as well. It's always easy to just dismiss people and not consider their argument.

Divide is natural with people having different beliefs, and in politics is more so. Everyone has their own beliefs, and in their beliefs everyone else is wrong, that is what having a different belief entails. But the only way to go through that is proper reasoning and argument. And you're not going to go through them by just shaming them through the use of "-phobic", or playing the victim, or "you're a bigot for not agreeing with me", that is not how it works, and that's why it isn't working.

You can't just argue that "some people don't have some rights", because lots of other people doesn't have certain rights too. For example if you're a felon, then they can deprive you the right to own guns; or deprive you of life and liberty because of the crime -- that is stipulated in the US Constitution 13th Amendment.

That's not to say I am equating trans people as criminal. But rather the mere fact of lack of rights while others have it is not a good reason.

People should have the right because it's reasonable and moral to give them so. Simply saying we're entitled because it's a right, is circular, self-defeating. You might as well say "it's bad because it's illegal".

View Post1453 R, on 05 October 2021 - 04:17 PM, said:

You specifically, 6th Messenger, decided to pull the trigger on this Internet goblin fight when you tried to demand that nobody ever talk about transgender issues ever again. You don't like the subject. You don't think it merits attention. You don't think trans folk need any more rights than what they've already got and don't see the point. You think it's all a bunch of dumb Murican Internet baloney and the world would be better off without any of us in it.

Cool. You can hold that opinion. And I can disagree with it. If you put that opinion on the Internet, I can argue against it. I can call it out for being what it is and point out the deep flaws in it. Some people will agree with me. Others will agree with you. What neither of us gets to do, and why you've earned a very prominent seat on my personal s@#$list, is demand the other shut up and never speak again.


Yikes, again this accusatory behavior, common with victim culture. Also the assumption of beliefs and misconstrution of things, because I guess your point won't stand if you didn't make me look the bad one.

Again, no one here is saying you don't exist, that your cause doesn't matter, it's just we don't ******* care because it's not relevant to game. Hell, I didn't even told you not to speak again, that's you punching yourself.

The victim culture is ridiculous.

View Post1453 R, on 05 October 2021 - 04:17 PM, said:

By all means speak your piece, 6th Messenger. Danichi, too. Even Cherokee. All of you, speak your piece. I will not report you, I will not say you nay, I will not tell you to shut up. I will tell you exactly why you're wrong, why your opinion is both subjectively and objectively garbage, and why it's not an opinion any reasonable person should hold. But I will not demand you change it, I will not attempt to silence it, and I will not attempt to undercut your personhood to discredit it.


Except you're not -- at least you haven't done it to me.

That takes actually good and respectable argument, not just making yourself the victim, a comment that it's bad, or emotional and intellectual black-mail, and just cheering on with the choir.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 05 October 2021 - 05:12 PM.


#169 Danichi Itobar

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Posted 05 October 2021 - 10:30 PM

View PostNickiepoo, on 05 October 2021 - 11:54 AM, said:


So you're fine with the Trans Rights team name because it has no effect on gameplay? i.e the thing that caused this topic to actually pop up.

To be clear, this isn't a leading question, I'm just asking if you're actually fine with that part of this subject.



100% ABSOULUTLY!! Without a question or reservation.

I even think that mech sticker is very cleaver and creative and looks good in the context of the game itself!

I agree with PGI's decision to reverse the team name ban. That was absoulutly the right thing to do. Heck, I think team names like that are actually a positive thing and a good way for a group of marginalized people or oppressed people to raise awareness. I even think that mech decoration, PSA forum post labeled as off topic, FB postings, informational commercials on tv or videos on youtube etc. etc. etc.. are all positive ways of communicating and informing the public at large of the plight of a group.

It's though accientaly stumbling onto youtube vids that made me aware of the situation of the Country of Taiwan for and the oppression that is happening in China of minorities, LGBQ being one of those minorities btw. This is how you bring awareness.

What I ADDIMENTLY disagree with is the fact that PGI was FORCED to lift a valid suspention of a player who was spamming on the chat because of WHAT they were spamming. They were forced to do so or become victims of "cancel culture". That is the rub right there as is shouldn't have mattered WHAT was being spammed. ALL spam should be treated the same. ISNT THAT WHAT THE TRANS RIGHTS MOVEMENT (or any marginalized group ) WANTS??? TO BE TREATED THE SAME AS EVEYONE ELSE???

Listen, for ANY group to attain equal free rights same as everyone else, the ultimate goal is to be treated like everyone else. Once that is attained, you are no longer a marginalized or oppressed group. Thus you are treated just like everyone else. This is fair and this is the goal. Right now the "trans rights" SJW group is in a position to bully other people and eveyone else must pander to them or risk being canceled . An THAT my friends is whats pissing me off. You want to not be marginalized? Fine, you can be treated like garbage like the rest of us are, plan and simple. Just another joe blow or jane blow who needs to follow the ******* rules or face the consequences of your actions without a group of bullies to back you up.

View PostNickiepoo, on 05 October 2021 - 12:09 PM, said:

No he's right, qualified immunity being allowed to exist is pretty controversial.


Exactly. Hard to do your job when doing it puts you at risk of getting sued or going to prison for saving lives. But that's another topic I wont get into.

Edited by Danichi Itobar, 05 October 2021 - 10:46 PM.


#170 Danichi Itobar

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Posted 05 October 2021 - 10:42 PM

View Post1453 R, on 05 October 2021 - 04:17 PM, said:



By all means speak your piece, 6th Messenger. Danichi, too. Even Cherokee. All of you, speak your piece. I will not report you, I will not say you nay, I will not tell you to shut up. I will tell you exactly why you're wrong, why your opinion is both subjectively and objectively garbage, and why it's not an opinion any reasonable person should hold. But I will not demand you change it, I will not attempt to silence it, and I will not attempt to undercut your personhood to discredit it.

Frankly, I don't need to. Y'all are doing a great job of discrediting your position yourselves.



Please tell me how my opinion is wrong. Explain yourself concisely. I will in one sententence consololdate my base opinion and you can respond:

My opinion is that NO spam should be allowed in the chat regardless of content and that PGI resended a suspention of a player for spamming chat because of the content of that spam and that this is wrong.

Your turn. Agree or disagree?

#171 Nickiepoo

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Posted 06 October 2021 - 12:56 AM

View PostDanichi Itobar, on 05 October 2021 - 10:42 PM, said:

My opinion is that NO spam should be allowed in the chat regardless of content and that PGI resended a suspention of a player for spamming chat because of the content of that spam and that this is wrong.

Your turn. Agree or disagree?


That's not what happened though right? I thought he was suspended and then the suspension ran out.

It is great to hear that your objection is purely limited to gameplay though, just be aware that, as is clear from this thread, you are arguing alongside people who actively hate trans people, some of which are cowards who will hide behind 'it's just because of gameplay' or whatever arguments as a stepping stone towards silencing them in more serious ways. I dunno, maybe you knew that already but for some people who have never been victims of oppression it's not obvious.

All trans people really want is empathy and it's the lack of that that causes all these other issues.

#172 Tevvy

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Posted 06 October 2021 - 01:35 AM

All you guys that come up out the cut being all threatened simply because an extreme minority with zero institutional power by any metric no longer hides their existence in society. It's also a real knee slapper that none of you realize that these hysterics and claims of being censored or bullied look ridiculous to every person in a minority group that witness these temper tantrums compared to what they have to grin and bear with or are subject to these very same temper tantrums for popping your comfortable bubble. There's a true irony in calling people snowflakes and being so easily offended not by being insulted, demeaned, told they're mentally ill, deviant, wrong, or they don't actually exist; but by being told people won't stand those things being done to them anymore.

Edited by Tevvy, 06 October 2021 - 01:43 AM.


#173 Llyranor

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Posted 06 October 2021 - 02:41 AM

Curiously, I've never seen this much anger and vitriol being directed at the o7 spam I see pretty frequently.

#174 Danichi Itobar

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Posted 06 October 2021 - 03:34 AM

View PostNickiepoo, on 06 October 2021 - 12:56 AM, said:

That's not what happened though right? I thought he was suspended and then the suspension ran out.

It is great to hear that your objection is purely limited to gameplay though, just be aware that, as is clear from this thread, you are arguing alongside people who actively hate trans people, some of which are cowards who will hide behind 'it's just because of gameplay' or whatever arguments as a stepping stone towards silencing them in more serious ways. I dunno, maybe you knew that already but for some people who have never been victims of oppression it's not obvious.

All trans people really want is empathy and it's the lack of that that causes all these other issues.



From my point of view yes, this is correct. Its my issue with gameplay only, and how corrections to disrupters are handled, not that its a trans thing. I can see where you might see it as what your talking about and ya, others here have made it a different issue these thread. The tittle of my post was "chat spamming" and it really was about PGI being fair to ALL and after reading that article, i think it sets a bad presidence for others to be ******** and try to come up their own way of being annoying in retaliation. Thats why im upset at PGI for their weak response and pandering appology.

You see, i like this game, i used to like COD:MW.. then the trolls came...in hords... to insult and bait and scream at each other in retaliation of being one thing or another thing or suopport this or support that.. Why do you think i play here instead now?

You see, iritating is irratating, it dosent have a gender, it dosent have a race, it just is... And it would take a 2 year old to figure out that if i spam "trans rights" into the chat it was going to irriatate someone or a whole lot of people. Come on, no one is that stupid ? It's a freaking game

And they knew how to get away with it...
And even got PGI to apologize...
Do you kinda see where im comming from?

#175 Beet Wagon

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Posted 06 October 2021 - 07:18 AM

If seeing two lines of non-game-related chat at the beginning of a match is that upsetting to you it kinda seems like the only real solution would be to remove the chat altogether.

Edited by Beet Wagon, 06 October 2021 - 07:34 AM.


#176 Tevvy

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Posted 06 October 2021 - 11:01 AM

View PostDanichi Itobar, on 06 October 2021 - 03:34 AM, said:


You see, iritating is irratating, it dosent have a gender, it dosent have a race, it just is... And it would take a 2 year old to figure out that if i spam "trans rights" into the chat it was going to irriatate someone or a whole lot of people. Come on, no one is that stupid ? It's a freaking game



It also only takes a 2 year old to see how easy it is to hide bigotry behind "it's actually about spamming I swear." Especially when an extremely common rhetorical strategy is to include things like insisting you don't care about the content of the spam, or the cause, or people who engaged in the behavior you're so irritated with. Also saying things like "treated like garbage like the rest of us" to frame power dynamic between the group you allegedly have no issue with and "the rest of us" as being different than it really is.

Added with your interpretation of this particular demographic exercising their right of free speech and association being bullying or censorship. Also implying that trans people have the institutional power or societal influence to materially impact a multi-million dollar company in a major way. Or even if they did that it's for some reason unacceptable and even possibly being for nefarious ends for them to do that when I'm sure you are totally in favor being able to publicly state your own grievances with a person or organization and cease association and stop being a customer until those grievances are redressed. It's very easy to mistake your very genuine concern about PGI's policy regarding spam moderation which isn't at all to do with trans people as being bigoted

Edited by Tevvy, 06 October 2021 - 11:04 AM.


#177 Danichi Itobar

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Posted 06 October 2021 - 12:30 PM

View PostTevvy, on 06 October 2021 - 11:01 AM, said:


It also only takes a 2 year old to see how easy it is to hide bigotry behind "it's actually about spamming I swear." Especially when an extremely common rhetorical strategy is to include things like insisting you don't care about the content of the spam, or the cause, or people who engaged in the behavior you're so irritated with. Also saying things like "treated like garbage like the rest of us" to frame power dynamic between the group you allegedly have no issue with and "the rest of us" as being different than it really is.

Added with your interpretation of this particular demographic exercising their right of free speech and association being bullying or censorship. Also implying that trans people have the institutional power or societal influence to materially impact a multi-million dollar company in a major way. Or even if they did that it's for some reason unacceptable and even possibly being for nefarious ends for them to do that when I'm sure you are totally in favor being able to publicly state your own grievances with a person or organization and cease association and stop being a customer until those grievances are redressed. It's very easy to mistake your very genuine concern about PGI's policy regarding spam moderation which isn't at all to do with trans people as being bigoted



thats your myopic view of whats going on, and its understandable giving your groups history. Look at the bigger picture. Like is said, FAIR across the board. Yes it is easy to use this as an excuse for biggoty, but thats not what im doing. Are we not allowed to have concern? And BTW for most that are upset here, this isn't an anti TRANS thing, its an anti SJW and PC thing. If the trans community was instead voicing their outrage in the halls of congress, or making logical arguements etc, they wouldn't be lumped in with the left and the SJWs. It just so happens for whatever reason, they are affiliated with those other bigger groups. And i'll admit and cant STAND the political correctness police or cancel culture in America period!

Like goverment, we the people must provide our own checks and balances to prevent bulling in EITHER direction. Yes, trans are oppressed, but that's no reason to become bullies yourself.

And YES i am diffrent than trans. Im a male who likes being male and who likes having sex with females, no I can't realate, so yes, that is different. and becuase of that I am part of the current main stream, and trans SHOULD be part of that main stream as well but isn't at the moment. But pissing of the mainstream to get your point across isn't going help bring about institutional change. WE KNOW because we have been part of the institution, the same institution the fringe wants to be acceped by. Don't you think it would be wise to listen to us a little if you want US to include YOU? That's how this works, right or wrong, and its probably wrong, its still how it works. Thats life, it's not fair, all we can do is try to make it fair. But fair is double edge sword, it has to work in both directions

BTW
-You have to boil the frog slowly, you cant just throw them in hot water.
-Its the slow blade the penatrates the shields
-Force only works if you are willing to kill the other side and no one wants that.

Are you hearing what im saying?

Edited by Danichi Itobar, 06 October 2021 - 12:32 PM.


#178 Beet Wagon

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Posted 06 October 2021 - 01:32 PM

View PostDanichi Itobar, on 06 October 2021 - 12:30 PM, said:



thats your myopic view of whats going on, and its understandable giving your groups history. Look at the bigger picture. Like is said, FAIR across the board. Yes it is easy to use this as an excuse for biggoty, but thats not what im doing. Are we not allowed to have concern? And BTW for most that are upset here, this isn't an anti TRANS thing, its an anti SJW and PC thing. If the trans community was instead voicing their outrage in the halls of congress, or making logical arguements etc, they wouldn't be lumped in with the left and the SJWs. It just so happens for whatever reason, they are affiliated with those other bigger groups. And i'll admit and cant STAND the political correctness police or cancel culture in America period!

Like goverment, we the people must provide our own checks and balances to prevent bulling in EITHER direction. Yes, trans are oppressed, but that's no reason to become bullies yourself.

And YES i am diffrent than trans. Im a male who likes being male and who likes having sex with females, no I can't realate, so yes, that is different. and becuase of that I am part of the current main stream, and trans SHOULD be part of that main stream as well but isn't at the moment. But pissing of the mainstream to get your point across isn't going help bring about institutional change. WE KNOW because we have been part of the institution, the same institution the fringe wants to be acceped by. Don't you think it would be wise to listen to us a little if you want US to include YOU? That's how this works, right or wrong, and its probably wrong, its still how it works. Thats life, it's not fair, all we can do is try to make it fair. But fair is double edge sword, it has to work in both directions

BTW
-You have to boil the frog slowly, you cant just throw them in hot water.
-Its the slow blade the penatrates the shields
-Force only works if you are willing to kill the other side and no one wants that.

Are you hearing what im saying?


There is nothing funnier than when someone who has spent days online crying about potentially seeing the phrase "trans rights" in pregame chat tries to pull the "I want you to be accepted, but to do that you have to stop annoying me first! You should listen to me because I'm actually an ally!" thing. I've never understood how you people are able to suggest that what marginalized people should do is actually stay quiet and wait for your benevolence to lift them up, all while repeatedly suggesting that very benevolence is contingent on us not unduly bothering you.

No, we don't need to listen to you. You are not an ally, or a potential ally, you're a wall. And you don't listen to a wall, or negotiate with a wall. You go around it or you climb over it or you knock it down. In fact, this entire situation is a great example of that. We made enough noise (and PGI got enough bad press) that they decided to be more inclusive of trans people, all while you - little, powerless you - stood, arms crossed, throwing a tantrum and demanding that if we want to achieve our goal we should actually be quiet.

Edited by Beet Wagon, 06 October 2021 - 01:33 PM.


#179 Catra Lanis

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Posted 06 October 2021 - 01:38 PM

"No, we don't need to listen to you. You are not an ally, or a potential ally, you're a wall. And you don't listen to a wall, or negotiate with a wall. You go around it or you climb over it or you knock it down. In fact, this entire situation is a great example of that. We made enough noise (and PGI got enough bad press) that they decided to be more inclusive of trans people, all while you - little, powerless you - stood, arms crossed, demanding that if we want to achieve our goal we should actually be quiet." This says it all...

#180 Beet Wagon

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Posted 06 October 2021 - 02:02 PM

It certainly does, it's a shame you're too pigheaded to understand it.





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