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When Was The Last Tukkayid Event? Are We Long Overdue For One?


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#21 martian

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Posted 10 October 2021 - 06:23 AM

View PostCurccu, on 10 October 2021 - 05:43 AM, said:

I don't know if you read forums loads of ppl are QQing groups destroying QP

I literally mentioned 10-12-man premades in my previous post. Show me any such groups in the Quick Play.


View PostCurccu, on 10 October 2021 - 05:43 AM, said:

Now you are mixing comp groups and premades, not same thing.

From the view of those random teams in Community Warfare - what difference did it make?

Those random PUGs waited a half of hour (or even longer) to get a game, only to be genrushed by 12 Firestarters. The match was over in 2 minutes ...

Do you think that those PUGs were eager to repeat this experience over and over again? No, they went to the QP queue and stayed there.


View PostCurccu, on 10 October 2021 - 05:43 AM, said:

And Teamspeaks/Discrods/Ventrillos have existed for all that wanted to use them for as long as this game has existed, There were and I suspect still are few of those just dedicated to look for FP playing company.

The existence of Teamspeak did not help those random teams. I guess that many of them did not have it on their PCs, or they did not have suitable headsets, did not know the right channels, etc.

As I said above: What PGI delivered in the form of CW/FW/FP was not what the majority of PGI's customers wanted - so those customers left for the Quick Play or they left MWO altogether.

#22 Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie

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Posted 10 October 2021 - 06:56 AM

yes, randoms have it too hard against a team that works together, with experience in that mode and a TS-server.
but hey: that goes for EVERY teambased game out there, past, future and present.
that's nothing new, that's just natural.


the trick here is NOT to balance randoms against FW-vets, because you just can't.
the trick IS to make randoms join a unit or at least drop&communicate with one.

PGI could have given some incentives to do that, like giving away monthly %stuff% for people in units doing FW or something. now give them some carrots on-top if they're winning, and those "randoms" organise and eventually get better at the game.


but as is tradition, PGI chose to do the opposite; units, especially the smaller ones, pay though the nose in cbills to get new members, which is hard for beginners. at the same time, cbills don't mean jacksh*t for vets and bigger units, and are laughed at by 'bigger units of vets'.
new players don't get rewarded for doing FW, they get punished - by PGI themselves.


so naturally now, beginners try FW a few times, get their asses handed repeatedly, and go back to QP; doing 300laps of nascar, they tire and quit that - and mwo as a whole.
let's put the blame where it belongs: %somebody% at PGI.



-----------------

would still like to see another round of Turkey-yid ;)

Edited by Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie, 10 October 2021 - 06:59 AM.


#23 Curccu

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Posted 10 October 2021 - 09:49 AM

View Postmartian, on 10 October 2021 - 06:23 AM, said:

I literally mentioned 10-12-man premades in my previous post. Show me any such groups in the Quick Play.

You literally said also "Despite all its flaws, there has been no such problem in the Quick Play." and I pointed out that many people see that there is such problems in QP
Like this one https://mwomercs.com...rom-solo-queue/

View Postmartian, on 10 October 2021 - 06:23 AM, said:

From the view of those random teams in Community Warfare - what difference did it make?

That they don't get gen rushed, shot instead.
but when comp teams get blamed to ruin this ruin that, like Vellron earlier... I correct them.

View Postmartian, on 10 October 2021 - 06:23 AM, said:

Those random PUGs waited a half of hour (or even longer) to get a game, only to be genrushed by 12 Firestarters. The match was over in 2 minutes ...

Do you think that those PUGs were eager to repeat this experience over and over again? No, they went to the QP queue and stayed there.

Again pretty rare stuff to get genrushed, you should play few games to see it.

View Postmartian, on 10 October 2021 - 06:23 AM, said:

The existence of Teamspeak did not help those random teams. I guess that many of them did not have it on their PCs, or they did not have suitable headsets, did not know the right channels, etc.

As I said above: What PGI delivered in the form of CW/FW/FP was not what the majority of PGI's customers wanted - so those customers left for the Quick Play or they left MWO altogether.

If those people are too dum to use forum search, make new post and ask or use google.. can't really help them.
+ This game has had it's own VOIP quite long time now.

Not sure what people expected to get I have heard a lots of not good, not what they wanted but very little good REALISTIC propositions what it should be.

And I think CW was pretty successful before they introduced insanity called long tom that made a lot of CW people quit.

#24 Monkey Lover

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Posted 10 October 2021 - 10:30 AM



View Postjustcallme A S H, on 08 October 2021 - 12:31 PM, said:

Split buckets were removed because split buckets are bad.

They thankfully won't be coming back


1 bucket killed of CW turned it I to 4 spawn quick play. It gave no reason for factions to play anymore. 50 or so of us used to fight for house Marik. I haven't touched this mode from the day they removed it. Most house members haven't too.

Edited by Monkey Lover, 10 October 2021 - 10:35 AM.


#25 martian

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Posted 10 October 2021 - 10:43 AM

View PostCurccu, on 10 October 2021 - 09:49 AM, said:

You literally said also "Despite all its flaws, there has been no such problem in the Quick Play." and I pointed out that many people see that there is such problems in QP
Like this one https://mwomercs.com...rom-solo-queue/

This was my post:
"I guess that it had something to do with the fact that they were farmed by 10-12-man premades repeatedly.

Despite all its flaws, there has been no such problem in the Quick Play."

You have - surely accidentally - forgot to quote the first sentence of my post ...


View PostCurccu, on 10 October 2021 - 09:49 AM, said:

That they don't get gen rushed, shot instead.
but when comp teams get blamed to ruin this ruin that, like Vellron earlier... I correct them.

What difference does it make if the premade calls itself "competetive" or by any other name?
For those random PUGs it was just a 12 Firestarters rushing generators and ending the game in 2 minutes, after 30 or 40 minutes of waiting.


View PostCurccu, on 10 October 2021 - 09:49 AM, said:

Again pretty rare stuff to get genrushed, you should play few games to see it.

When it mattered (and when FP still had some life in it), it was frequent enough.


View PostCurccu, on 10 October 2021 - 09:49 AM, said:

If those people are too dum to use forum search, make new post and ask or use google.. can't really help them.

A significant part of the MWO playerbase has never been interested in forming units, etc. to play CW.

That's why the Community Warfare/ Faction Play has lost almost all players (together with many other problems)..


View PostCurccu, on 10 October 2021 - 09:49 AM, said:

+ This game has had it's own VOIP quite long time now.

When it mattered (and when FP still had some life in it), the game lacked such functionality. Typically it was premades on Teamspeak versus random players with text chat.


View PostCurccu, on 10 October 2021 - 09:49 AM, said:

Not sure what people expected to get I have heard a lots of not good, not what they wanted but very little good REALISTIC propositions what it should be.

And I think CW was pretty successful before they introduced insanity called long tom that made a lot of CW people quit.


When it really mattered and the number of CW players was the greatest, the CW/FW/FP offered random teams four basic scenarios:

1. Attack entrenched premade (often 10-12 man) and get slaughtered when attacking. Does anybody remember those ridiculous situations as attacking 12 BattleMaster firing line with random colection of PUGs on Boreal? The only thing those random players saw were those shoulder-mounted ER Large Lasers.

2. Defend against 12 Firestarter rush ... Game ending after 2 minutes.

3. Defend against 12 Assault 'Mechs rush ... Game ending after 2 minutes.

4. Attack against 12 man premade that slaughtered the first wave and then went to farming arriving PUGs in their drop zone. I bet that all those PUGs loved being killed off in their drop zone, even before their 'Mech touched the ground ...

Surely those PUGs thought: "Wow! I can't wait to enjoy this experience again after another 30 or 40 minutes of waiting!" [/sarcasm]

#26 Khalcruth

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Posted 10 October 2021 - 10:46 AM

View PostMonkey Lover, on 10 October 2021 - 10:30 AM, said:

It gave no reason for factions to play anymore.


There's always "I enjoy playing with my friends".

#27 Curccu

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Posted 10 October 2021 - 11:09 AM

View Postmartian, on 10 October 2021 - 10:43 AM, said:

This was my post:
"I guess that it had something to do with the fact that they were farmed by 10-12-man premades repeatedly.

Despite all its flaws, there has been no such problem in the Quick Play."

You have - surely accidentally - forgot to quote the first sentence of my post ...

Relevant words FARMED and PREMADES. is it 4 man or 10 man doesn't matter if bad players are getting farmed by premades in their opinion.

View Postmartian, on 10 October 2021 - 10:43 AM, said:

What difference does it make if the premade calls itself "competetive" or by any other name?
For those random PUGs it was just a 12 Firestarters rushing generators and ending the game in 2 minutes, after 30 or 40 minutes of waiting.

That they are getting rushed by premades not comp players?

View Postmartian, on 10 October 2021 - 10:43 AM, said:

When it mattered (and when FP still had some life in it), it was frequent enough.

From my memory, no not really that common. or what does your frequent mean? 10%?

View Postmartian, on 10 October 2021 - 10:43 AM, said:

A significant part of the MWO playerbase has never been interested in forming units, etc. to play CW.
That's why the Community Warfare/ Faction Play has lost almost all players (together with many other problems)..

You got some facts/evidence to back that claim?

View Postmartian, on 10 October 2021 - 10:43 AM, said:

When it really mattered and the number of CW players was the greatest, the CW/FW/FP offered random teams four basic scenarios:

1. Attack entrenched premade (often 10-12 man) and get slaughtered when attacking. Does anybody remember those ridiculous situations as attacking 12 BattleMaster firing line with random colection of PUGs on Boreal? The only thing those random players saw were those shoulder-mounted ER Large Lasers.

2. Defend against 12 Firestarter rush ... Game ending after 2 minutes.

3. Defend against 12 Assault 'Mechs rush ... Game ending after 2 minutes.

4. Attack against 12 man premade that slaughtered the first wave and then went to farming arriving PUGs in their drop zone. I bet that all those PUGs loved being killed off in their drop zone, even before their 'Mech touched the ground ...

Surely those PUGs thought: "Wow! I can't wait to enjoy this experience again after another 30 or 40 minutes of waiting!" [/sarcasm]

90% of players are solo players but 100% of possible matches they get are against well organized skilled premades, makes sense.

#28 martian

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Posted 10 October 2021 - 11:34 AM

View PostCurccu, on 10 October 2021 - 11:09 AM, said:

Relevant words FARMED and PREMADES. is it 4 man or 10 man doesn't matter if bad players are getting farmed by premades in their opinion.

So when I said that there have been no 10-12-man premades in the QP for the last few years, I was right.

And your "4 man or 10 man doesn't matter" ....


View PostCurccu, on 10 October 2021 - 11:09 AM, said:

That they are getting rushed by premades not comp players?

You have still failed to answer my question: What difference did it make from the view of the genrushed random team, if those 12 Firestarters were from "competetive premade" or just "premade"?


View PostCurccu, on 10 October 2021 - 11:09 AM, said:

From my memory, no not really that common. or what does your frequent mean? 10%?

It was common enough that the players complained about it. Just a few randomly picked complaints:

"A swarm of light 'Mechs jumps over the gates and obliterates the generators. Then, Omega. Game over. Frustrating, no?"

"A 5-6 ECM Spider with 6-7 Firestarter rush is incredibly hard to stop*. Not saying that it can't be done but if the light pilots are decent and in a mob all I can say is good luck*. The margin for error is so very small. I have unfortunately lost matches in literally 2m to such strategies and to that I say kudos because it was quite successful."

"all atackers only do 12 firestarter in the first wave (light rush)"

"CW is dead as long as there is a coordinated 12 men rush.

12 men rush win is so simple to achieve. Just rush and keep shooting on structures! You can win with ZERO enemy kills. Yes, ZERO enemy kills and still win a CW with a 12 men rush."

Even PGI noticed something and attempted to come with their usual bandaid after some time.


View PostCurccu, on 10 October 2021 - 11:09 AM, said:

You got some facts/evidence to back that claim?

Yeah, I do. The best evidence is the lack of players in FP, turning FP into a very niche game mode in MWO.


View PostCurccu, on 10 October 2021 - 11:09 AM, said:

90% of players are solo players but 100% of possible matches they get are against well organized skilled premades, makes sense.

Those CW/FP events attracted a lot of such groups, ready to farm random teams. Sometimes they even switched sides quickly to make sure they would not face each other during those events.

#29 justcallme A S H

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Posted 10 October 2021 - 12:22 PM

View PostFLG 01, on 10 October 2021 - 04:50 AM, said:

Indeed, expecting a fair fight is not what FP is about.
FP is all about big premade groups stomping randomly assembled casuals (aka 90% of MWO's population). ...which is why it is dead.


It is unfortunate you chose to ignore the very, very clear warning screen and what it told you. I say ignore because the warning is explicitly clear.

Good work on the 3yo+ screenshot too

#30 YouKnowNothing

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Posted 10 October 2021 - 12:38 PM

View PostCurccu, on 10 October 2021 - 03:18 AM, said:


Yes I understand quitting MWO if game disapoints that badly, but I don't understand playing QP and refusing to play FP as it would be some big bad bogeyman.


It's simple really, in FP you're stuck for 20-30min with the same teammates and/or against the same enemies, using the same builds and the same tactics over and over again. Granted, there's not much more variation in QP either. But at least I'd be out of a match in upwards of 5min generally. And I really do not have the patience anymore to stay longer.

#31 Khalcruth

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Posted 10 October 2021 - 01:17 PM

Just for the record - it's very uncommon for teams to gen rush anymore - there's no point. You don't get planets / MC, so there's no incentive to play a million 2 minutes games every night. Some people might gen rush their 3rd or 4th wave if that looks like their only chance of winning. But the vast majority of people these days come to shoot enemy mechs (often as a group effort with their friends), and ending matches abnormally quickly defeats that purpose.

#32 Thorqemada

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Posted 10 October 2021 - 01:23 PM

View PostFLG 01, on 10 October 2021 - 04:50 AM, said:

Indeed, expecting a fair fight is not what FP is about.
FP is all about big premade groups stomping randomly assembled casuals (aka 90% of MWO's population). ...which is why it is dead.


To quote Sean Lang from NGNGTV in one of his MWO Streams: "If it is a fair fight you do it wrong!"

Aside of that CW/FW ws already in stark decline/dead b4 the Long Tom disaster.
Even the general comp scene can not stomach getting farmed by better peak comp players over and over again while being forced into a very few feasibly competitive Mech chassis, loadouts and team setups while playing on atrocius maps after excessive waiting times against unsurmountable odds.

QP was allways the unpredictable fun for all get right in action queue that offered enough to surpass the lifespann of any other game mode that has put way more effort into not seldom adhereing to the wishes of the peak competitive players (granted it allways came with a special pgi spice).

Solaris is the very testament that comp players do not want fight comp players as is group q bcs it is to stressful while not successful enough aside of some atrocious design decisions and bad timing (releasing Soalris right b4 HBS Battletech wipes the Qs blank).

And today we have a situation where players of the council openly admit they are bored to death by the very game they try to fix and must force themself to play it (play QP).

Does this bear a good future or is the claw of frustration settling the case fataly in the end?

Only 22 can tell...

Edited by Thorqemada, 10 October 2021 - 01:24 PM.


#33 Curccu

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Posted 10 October 2021 - 01:40 PM

View Postmartian, on 10 October 2021 - 11:34 AM, said:

So when I said that there have been no 10-12-man premades in the QP for the last few years, I was right.

And your "4 man or 10 man doesn't matter" ....
Yes? No one has claimed otherwise.

View Postmartian, on 10 October 2021 - 11:34 AM, said:

You have still failed to answer my question: What difference did it make from the view of the genrushed random team, if those 12 Firestarters were from "competetive premade" or just "premade"?

You fail to understand that those 12 firestarters are not from competitive players, not the way we roll. Thus claiming that comps ruin FP by doing something that we have no interest in doing is false and and we are getting flak from something we are not doing.

View Postmartian, on 10 October 2021 - 11:34 AM, said:

It was common enough that the players complained about it. Just a few randomly picked complaints:

"A swarm of light 'Mechs jumps over the gates and obliterates the generators. Then, Omega. Game over. Frustrating, no?"

"A 5-6 ECM Spider with 6-7 Firestarter rush is incredibly hard to stop*. Not saying that it can't be done but if the light pilots are decent and in a mob all I can say is good luck*. The margin for error is so very small. I have unfortunately lost matches in literally 2m to such strategies and to that I say kudos because it was quite successful."

"all atackers only do 12 firestarter in the first wave (light rush)"

"CW is dead as long as there is a coordinated 12 men rush.

12 men rush win is so simple to achieve. Just rush and keep shooting on structures! You can win with ZERO enemy kills. Yes, ZERO enemy kills and still win a CW with a 12 men rush."

Even PGI noticed something and attempted to come with their usual bandaid after some time.

Common enough that people complain can mean in these forums that it didn't happen even once :D
So this doesn't really give any meaningful number how often that happened.

View Postmartian, on 10 October 2021 - 11:34 AM, said:

Yeah, I do. The best evidence is the lack of players in FP, turning FP into a very niche game mode in MWO.

No with your claim there never should have even been FP population, there was. Plenty of units proud of their faction
and whole games player base have declined very heavily from those days 33,7k last Tuk vs 19,4k now or rockbottom between these Feb 20 just 10,4k so Yeah lots of ppl have quit this game

View Postmartian, on 10 October 2021 - 11:34 AM, said:

Those CW/FP events attracted a lot of such groups, ready to farm random teams. Sometimes they even switched sides quickly to make sure they would not face each other during those events.

Oh please make your tinfoil hat thicker...

And if I remember correctly there wasn't quick side switching (like we have now) when last Tuk happened.

#34 Curccu

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Posted 10 October 2021 - 01:55 PM

View PostThorqemada, on 10 October 2021 - 01:23 PM, said:

Solaris is the very testament that comp players do not want fight comp players as is group q bcs it is to stressful while not successful enough aside of some atrocious design decisions and bad timing (releasing Soalris right b4 HBS Battletech wipes the Qs blank).

I enjoyed Solaris matches against other good players most. Bashing some potato was/is waste of time, but if I could take out some other high tier comp player well that's bragging rights.

And yeah I know Solaris has some serious issues but when I got some good matchups it was something I liked a lot.

But that has been same for me and friends I play with in every game mode this game has ever had, we want tough matches... win or lose if the game is tight and challenging that is most fun this game can offer.

#35 Jugger Grimrod

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Posted 10 October 2021 - 03:07 PM

View PostKhalcruth, on 10 October 2021 - 01:17 PM, said:

...there's no point. You don't get planets / MC, so there's no incentive to play...


Nailed it. I've stepped in puddles deeper than FW.

Edited by Jugger Grimrod, 10 October 2021 - 03:10 PM.


#36 Khalcruth

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Posted 10 October 2021 - 04:31 PM

View PostJugger Grimrod, on 10 October 2021 - 03:07 PM, said:


Nailed it. I've stepped in puddles deeper than FW.


Way to cut and paste parts of two different sentences to try and get a quote to say what you want. It's fine if you want to make that statement, but leave me out of such dishonesty.

#37 LordNothing

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Posted 11 October 2021 - 12:21 AM

View PostFLG 01, on 10 October 2021 - 04:50 AM, said:

Indeed, expecting a fair fight is not what FP is about.
FP is all about big premade groups stomping randomly assembled casuals (aka 90% of MWO's population). ...which is why it is dead.

-image snipped for brevity-


the problem is always framed as anti-group, which is a mistake. that only broadens the divide. turns it into an 'us vs them' debate. it is possible to maintain a w/l=1 as a solo middletier pug, at least it was a year or two ago when i still played it as my primary mode. stomps still happened, but not as frequently as most pugs would claim.

but massive losing streaks do happen though. its possible for a new player to come in, even one that prepared drop decks and had enough mechs, to play the whole day and never win a match. you need to win about 30% of the time to find a game worth playing, so if a new player hops on and doesn't get a single win, they leave, they stay gone, often forever. they do not get gud, they do not join teams, they do not pass go, they do not collect 200 cbills.

i think the biggest contributing factor was (and still is to a smaller degree) an artefact of side stacking. teams would usually stack on whatever side had the best meta at the time, you would have 10 players on the weak side and 3 whole groups on the other side, and pugs would join the weak side because that would give the shortest wait time and the highest chance to not get skipped over. but because the groups are on the other side they usually lose. they tried to balance the sides with different tonnage allotments and mech balance (ive yet to play fp post cauldron, it might be a lot better now). teams are more willing to switch sides now that they can do so without penalty.

you can still mitigate side stacking with a simple rule change. when the ratio between is and clan gets too high, that a civil war (lore is chock full of infighting) match needs to be spawned to level out the buckets. its funny that we consider thins a 1 bucket system when there are in fact 2 buckets, and when they are not at the same level, everyone has a bad time. that is of course except for the 12 man who has queue priority (12 mans can effectively stop all other group configurations from dropping at all if there are enough of them). by leveraging civil war mechanic, you can effectively make it a true 1 bucket system. also if teams stack one side, then teams can fight teams (teams want that? right?).

the mm was a good idea but far too late in the game to matter. id also add some team composition rules to the mm. lance for lance (12 vs 12, 8+pugs vs 8+pugs, 4+pugs vs 4+pugs, or all pugs) or +/- a lance (which adds 12 vs 8+pugs, 8+pugs vs 4+pugs, 4+pugs v all pugs). id prefer the latter as its less restrictive. i think queue priority goes to the 12 mans, but if you give the 8mans the first priority, then you can fit in more pug slots. its a good idea to stop giving one group configuration the priority, if you show up for fp you should get to play fp.

Edited by LordNothing, 11 October 2021 - 12:22 AM.


#38 FLG 01

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Posted 11 October 2021 - 01:25 AM

View Postjustcallme A S H, on 10 October 2021 - 12:22 PM, said:

It is unfortunate you chose to ignore the very, very clear warning screen and what it told you. I say ignore because the warning is explicitly clear.

Good work on the 3yo+ screenshot too

I did not say there was no warning, nor did I complain about it. You do not see my trying to change anything about that mode. Go have your fun with it.

I just did what everybody else did, and left the mode for good long ago.
...hence the old screenshot. Posted Image

#39 Cruor vult

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Posted 11 October 2021 - 01:54 AM

FP is not dead because of the players who supposedly cannot adapt to this game mode. What is happening now is the pitiful remnants of the once popular game mode, and those 1.5 diggers trying to enter and play, who are stomped, farm in the drop zone, are not allowed into the game, a drop in the ocean from players who left the game, loyalists, members once huge units and clans. MBO is a fairly niche game, and those who wanted and could play in this game have already come (and have already left the game), it is not possible to attract new non-familiar players from the universe, because all the fans who held the online game were disappointed in the attitude of the PGI to the game and the game mode in general. This is a game about confrontation, and confrontation is wretched, and comes down to equalizing technical bases, there is neither the scope of battles, nor epic, nor "historical" authenticity. For 4 years, the PGI eradicated FP for the sake of casuals, as a result, we got what we have now.

#40 Monkey Lover

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Posted 11 October 2021 - 01:57 AM

View PostKhalcruth, on 10 October 2021 - 10:46 AM, said:


There's always "I enjoy playing with my friends".


Ya they still did but in group q until it died and now some do in pug q but mostly house factions have quit.

For me house players made cw fun. These were players that cared not just people looking to skill up some mechs or get some mech bays.

Really the end of cw is when Russ listened to the mercs and gave people rewards to play other than improving and adding to it. 1 bucket was just the final nail.

Edited by Monkey Lover, 11 October 2021 - 02:03 AM.






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