Jump to content

Am I Helping My Team?


46 replies to this topic

#1 NecessaryWeevil

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Survivor
  • 116 posts

Posted 26 November 2021 - 11:33 AM

Hi, so my Medium mech of choice right now is a Blackjack. Trying to play it as long range direct fire support, with sufficient mobility to reach good firing positions and withdraw from bad ones.

I started with Rotary AC/2s, but that required too much facetime, so I switched to Ultras. Finding myself wishing I could do something to hostiles I spotted at longer ranges, I've now switched to a Light Gauss Rifle plus 4 MLs. But whereas I could use the Ultras up close, using the Gauss means I play more cautiously and I've noticed I spend more time maneuvering for position.

Regardless of the mech I play, I tend to average around 300 damage per round, but in this one in particular that tends to come in the second half of the match.

So my question is - is this helping my team or is there a better way to do it, preferably while remaining at range?

PS This in Tier 5 where I seem to be permanently.

Edited by NecessaryWeevil, 26 November 2021 - 11:34 AM.


#2 martian

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 5,382 posts

Posted 26 November 2021 - 12:06 PM

View PostNecessaryWeevil, on 26 November 2021 - 11:33 AM, said:

Hi, so my Medium mech of choice right now is a Blackjack. Trying to play it as long range direct fire support, with sufficient mobility to reach good firing positions and withdraw from bad ones.

I started with Rotary AC/2s, but that required too much facetime, so I switched to Ultras. Finding myself wishing I could do something to hostiles I spotted at longer ranges, I've now switched to a Light Gauss Rifle plus 4 MLs. But whereas I could use the Ultras up close, using the Gauss means I play more cautiously and I've noticed I spend more time maneuvering for position.

Regardless of the mech I play, I tend to average around 300 damage per round, but in this one in particular that tends to come in the second half of the match.

So my question is - is this helping my team or is there a better way to do it, preferably while remaining at range?

Well, there is nothing wrong with supporting your team with long range fire.

The problem is that dealing just 10 points of damage for the most of the time is not quite enough, unless you are firing your LGR constantly and hiting enemy 'Mechs with the majority of your shots.

It seems to me that you like medium 'Mechs.

Have you thought about buying a different medium 'Mech? Some of them can be configured as quite good mobile snipers:
  • Shadow Cat with twin ER PPCs - it is faster than the Blackjack, more mobile and carries ECM
  • Huntsman with twin ER PPCs - sufficiently fast and mobile
  • Vapor Eagle with three ER PPCs
  • Shadow Hawk - good 'Mechs with nice shoulder hardpoints that can be used for Autocannons, Gauss Rifles or various lasers and PPCs (depending on the variant that you have)
Posted Image

The current sale offers a good opportunity for a new 'Mech acquisition, by the way.

View PostNecessaryWeevil, on 26 November 2021 - 11:33 AM, said:

PS This in Tier 5 where I seem to be permanently.

I do not think that you must stay in Tier 5 forever. Posted Image

The primary question is: "Are you willing to learn and maybe adjust your playstyle and/or your 'Mech?"

#3 caravann

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Knight Errant
  • 312 posts

Posted 26 November 2021 - 12:13 PM

erPPC removes ecm

LBX10 is a good support weapon

you say you want to use ac2, 2x ac2 deals 4 damage but 2xac2 + LBX deals 5 damage and you can pick any LBX

The reason why to pick an LBX is because it is an Inner sphere mech. If it was a clan mech the LBX could been replaced with a ERPPC who deals splash damage at long range. Clan has shorts on UAC and deals single action with LBX.

Usually the long range shooter is ac2, erlaser, lrm and erppc and gauss.

gauss work well with RAC2, I have it as backup with MRM but it can be used with RAC solely
'
gauss do not work well with UAC because of its chain-fire feature. without it you could as well used a normal AC.
chain fire is used on medium lasers to overcome ghost heating and to make each laser check a critical hit.
weapons like UAC and chain-fired Lasers or PPC has a familiar mechanic.

IS has Light ppc with up to 1km range. this is the normal range for snipers as their optimal range is at 1km
there's no reason why to pick up at least one, it 100% better to have 1 light ppc than no ppc at all. since it has longer range than a 1 ton tag laser. At 1km many mechs with ecm are not noticed.

focus at 1km range instead of 2km range. even at this distance you will need to rethink to equip a computer to keep up with the snipers if you are going to support, you may be a sniper as well.

Blackjack is a speedy mech, lighter than the laser support fire EBJB and your options are to use a uac with a large pulse laser and use this to fodder the UAC with the large pulse laser.


UAV and airstrikes and LRM

#4 Escef

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Overlord
  • Overlord
  • 8,471 posts
  • Twitter: Link
  • Twitch: Link
  • LocationNew England

Posted 26 November 2021 - 01:17 PM

A lot of people that try to fill the sniper role aren't very active about it, and frequently end up staring at areas with no targets while they camp a safe position. If you are actively searching for a spot where you have targets that alone puts you ahead of the curve, especially in tier 5. If you relocate after a few good shots, that isn't necessarily a bad thing. That means you are less likely to be successfully hunted down, and anyone that does go hunting for you is a combatant that has peeled away from the main group (which makes things better for the rest of your team).

So long as you are active about it, I'd say overall you are helping. Sure, there will be matches where things go sideways, that's life. But even a YOLO-rushing assault can do good for the group if the rest of the team can take advantage of the opfor team focusing all their attention on one target (that generally requires more coordination than you're likely to see in tier 5, of course).

#5 ScrapIron Prime

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 3,905 posts
  • LocationSmack dab in the middle of Ohio

Posted 26 November 2021 - 01:19 PM

View Postmartian, on 26 November 2021 - 12:06 PM, said:

Well, there is nothing wrong with supporting your team with long range fire.

The problem is that dealing just 10 points of damage for the most of the time is not quite enough, unless you are firing your LGR constantly and hitting enemy 'Mechs with the majority of your shots.

And nothing says you HAVE to snipe with a light gauss. Get in there with the team so you're working both the LGR and the lasers, with the odd "keep their heads down" long range shot. "4ML + big Boom" is a great armament choice for the Blackjack, no reason you can't shine with it!

View Postmartian, on 26 November 2021 - 12:06 PM, said:

The current sale offers a good opportunity for a new 'Mech acquisition, by the way.


Oh indeed it is!

#6 martian

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 5,382 posts

Posted 26 November 2021 - 01:45 PM

View PostScrapIron Prime, on 26 November 2021 - 01:19 PM, said:

And nothing says you HAVE to snipe with a light gauss. Get in there with the team so you're working both the LGR and the lasers, with the odd "keep their heads down" long range shot. "4ML + big Boom" is a great armament choice for the Blackjack, no reason you can't shine with it!

The OP closed his post with "preferably while remaining at range", so how I understand it, he prefers to keep his "sniper" role.

Medium lasers have the default range 270 m, so when a player is close enough to use them regularly, I do not think that such player could say that he is "remaining at range".

That was why I recommended him a few 'Mechs that he could use for ranged support of his team, but armed with more powerful ranged armament than one LGR.

#7 justcallme A S H

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • CS 2020 Referee
  • CS 2020 Referee
  • 8,987 posts
  • LocationMelbourne, AU

Posted 26 November 2021 - 01:59 PM

View Postcaravann, on 26 November 2021 - 12:13 PM, said:

LBX10 is a good support weapon


LBX10 is a primary, not support weapon

View Postcaravann, on 26 November 2021 - 12:13 PM, said:

gauss work well with RAC2, I have it as backup with MRM but it can be used with RAC solely


No they don't. Gauss and RAC (dual ballistic) is miles over tonnage and will not fit on a Backjack.

View Postcaravann, on 26 November 2021 - 12:13 PM, said:

chain fire is used on medium lasers to overcome ghost heating and to make each laser check a critical hit.


Unless you are firing 7 or more there is no ghost heat. Chain firing does not alter the critical hit chance at all.

View Postcaravann, on 26 November 2021 - 12:13 PM, said:

weapons like UAC and chain-fired Lasers or PPC has a familiar mechanic.


Not they don't. UAC are burst DPS. Lasers are hitscan and PPCs are PPFLD. 3 completely different mechanics.

View Postcaravann, on 26 November 2021 - 12:13 PM, said:

IS has Light ppc with up to 1km range. this is the normal range for snipers as their optimal range is at 1km


LPPC is doing basically 0 damage at 1,000m. It is completely useless at that range as it is so far outside optimal it isn't even funny.



Once again you are posting complete and utter misinformation.

Stop misleading users.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 26 November 2021 - 01:59 PM.


#8 FupDup

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 26,887 posts
  • LocationThe Keeper of Memes

Posted 26 November 2021 - 02:01 PM

He should probably swap those MLs to ERMLs if he wants to stay at range most of the match.

Light Gauss definitely isn't the best choice for a ballistic weapon here because of how inefficient it is for its weight. It works well on larger mechs who have the weight to combine it with PPCs, but the BJ doesn't have that kind of leeway.

IMO I would rather roll with something like 4 ERML + UAC/10 for a mid-range BJ rather than playing snipey-snipe with it. I'd rather use ERLLs or some kind of PPCs on an energy variant for sniper mode instead of a ballistic variant.

Edited by FupDup, 26 November 2021 - 02:02 PM.


#9 caravann

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Knight Errant
  • 312 posts

Posted 26 November 2021 - 02:50 PM

View Postjustcallme A S H, on 26 November 2021 - 01:59 PM, said:


LBX10 is a primary, not support weapon



No they don't. Gauss and RAC (dual ballistic) is miles over tonnage and will not fit on a Backjack.



Unless you are firing 7 or more there is no ghost heat. Chain firing does not alter the critical hit chance at all.



Not they don't. UAC are burst DPS. Lasers are hitscan and PPCs are PPFLD. 3 completely different mechanics.



LPPC is doing basically 0 damage at 1,000m. It is completely useless at that range as it is so far outside optimal it isn't even funny.



Once again you are posting complete and utter misinformation.

Stop misleading users.


[redacted]

the light ppc is not for damage, it is to remove the ecm.
the lbx is not a main weapon in my example, it is to give critical chance boost without a computer.
the lasers are not to stupidly hold down the button, it is to fire each and every laser one after another, this will increase the chances to make a critical hit.
If you can not understand the most simplest knowledge about why a LBX does not need a computer I don't know what to say.

Edited by Ekson Valdez, 26 November 2021 - 03:14 PM.


#10 justcallme A S H

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • CS 2020 Referee
  • CS 2020 Referee
  • 8,987 posts
  • LocationMelbourne, AU

Posted 26 November 2021 - 02:59 PM

View Postcaravann, on 26 November 2021 - 02:50 PM, said:

the lasers are not to stupidly hold down the button, it is to fire each and every laser one after another, this will increase the chances to make a critical hit.


This is completely false. Chainfiring does not increase the chance of a crit roll.

Stop spreading misinformation.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 26 November 2021 - 02:59 PM.


#11 LordNothing

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 14,709 posts

Posted 26 November 2021 - 03:59 PM

camping is usually fine but to be good at it you need to put down enough damage to actually be useful. for a mech with a low damage output you need to be firing the whole match to pull it off, high mobility platforms are preferable. one of my to-do list mechs was a mlx-c with a mostly stock loadout. this mech has an erll and an erml, ecm, and ams (i also swapped the bap for tc1 and the ams+ammo for lams and moved some armor around). i was still able to do fairly well with it getting 300+ damage games. so its totally possible to be useful in a low yield sniper build. its still mostly a support build but so long as victory doesn't hinge on you, you will do your team a solid.

alternately you can stack up a huge alpha and fire less frequently. this seems to be what higher skilled players go for. you give up some mobility, and positioning becomes a lot more critical as a result. you cant pull out of a close quarters battle as easy. you will be at a disadvantage if you get into such a fight with a brawler, but you are still carrying a reasonable laser alpha and can defend yourself against lighter threats (provided its not an srm dive bomber). in all situations really good heat management is critical with such a build.

#12 Escef

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Overlord
  • Overlord
  • 8,471 posts
  • Twitter: Link
  • Twitch: Link
  • LocationNew England

Posted 26 November 2021 - 04:00 PM

Ok, assuming the OP is using the BJ-1, I was thinking a possible build for the role could be a 225XL, 1 jet, endo/ferro (shave off 2 points of armor), 4xLPPC, and an LB2X(2 tons of ammo). The LPPCs have decent range, and the LB2X is... well, just one isn't great, but the DPS is good and the range is phenomenal (optimal 810m, max of 2430). A few pings from the LB2X is often enough to distract someone; never underestimate the value of distraction.

https://mech.nav-alp.../#2a5ee6c9_BJ-1

Using that same base engine/armor/etc., you could also go for a light Gauss and 2xLPPC, packs a bit more of a concentrated punch, better for a hit-n-run style of play. Not sure if I could recommend a full size Gauss, but it might be worth trying. If you're willing to engage a little closer, a UAC10 (2 tons ammo), 4xERML, TC1 might work (the TC can be pulled for more ammo if needed).

Someone here referred to the Blackjack as speedy, and I'm going to have to disagree. With a 225 engine it is no faster than a clan heavy, and a maxed out engine doesn't even net an extra 4 kph. For a low end medium, it's kinda' slow. (For comparison, you can put the same weapons load on Shadowhawk with a 350XL, and be around 20 kph faster with more armor and more robust structure.)

#13 LordNothing

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 14,709 posts

Posted 26 November 2021 - 05:31 PM

this is possible, its not sane but possible: bj-1

ammo starved so your damage caps at about 600 if you use it all and have 100% accuracy. a few more shots with nodes. you could pull one lgauss and a ton of ammo for a couple erll, upgrade the engine, and change the heat sinks to dubs and you get this: bj-1, but you are better with the bj-1dc for its laser duration quirk.

Edited by LordNothing, 26 November 2021 - 05:46 PM.


#14 Saved By The Bell

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 376 posts
  • LocationJapan

Posted 27 November 2021 - 12:40 AM

Small or medium Lasers + 10 or 5 LBX.

#15 The6thMessenger

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Nova Captain
  • 7,752 posts
  • LocationUnder 60KPH in an Urbanmech with a UAC20. Sending people to their makers.

Posted 27 November 2021 - 02:33 AM

View PostLordNothing, on 26 November 2021 - 05:31 PM, said:

this is possible, its not sane but possible: bj-1

ammo starved so your damage caps at about 600 if you use it all and have 100% accuracy. a few more shots with nodes. you could pull one lgauss and a ton of ammo for a couple erll, upgrade the engine, and change the heat sinks to dubs and you get this: bj-1, but you are better with the bj-1dc for its laser duration quirk.


I honestly don't trust that speed.

View PostNecessaryWeevil, on 26 November 2021 - 11:33 AM, said:

So my question is - is this helping my team or is there a better way to do it, preferably while remaining at range?


I would suggest 2x AC2 + ERLL, it makes use of AC2 cooldown quirk, and the ERLL should work well with range. Alternatively, if the guy prefers more synchronized projectiles, maybe 2x AC2 + ERPPC or 2x LB2X + ERPPC Instead, at such scenario if your mech is already hot, stop firing the ERPPC and just give support fire using AC2.

If you want, you can build ERPPC + Gauss instead. Having only one arm is risky, but not having to use the entire width of you mech means your mech is less exposed. The gauss is there so that you have something to shoot while cooling off as well.

But those builds are just my thought.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 27 November 2021 - 02:44 AM.


#16 Thorqemada

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,099 posts

Posted 27 November 2021 - 03:19 AM

View Postjustcallme A S H, on 26 November 2021 - 02:59 PM, said:


This is completely false. Chainfiring does not increase the chance of a crit roll.

Stop spreading misinformation.


This perception may come from experiences players had that when they would fire multiple weapons at the same time MWO did less damage than if you would chainfire.

I had the same experience with several weapons on several Mechs where firing multiple weapons (same type and different type) did not the expected damage and alternating groupfire or chainfiring a weapon group would pretty much double the damage output (not only proven by numbers but also by success aka kills).

That time is quite a while ago but the knowledge prevailed and you never know if it comes back on certain circumstances.

I would not deny it per se...

Edited by Thorqemada, 27 November 2021 - 03:20 AM.


#17 Curccu

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Liquid Metal
  • Liquid Metal
  • 3,387 posts

Posted 27 November 2021 - 04:12 AM

View Postcaravann, on 26 November 2021 - 12:13 PM, said:

erPPC removes ecm

Like any other PPC in the game

View Postcaravann, on 26 November 2021 - 12:13 PM, said:

LBX10 is a good support weapon

In medium mech at least with that weight and slot usage no, it has to be primary weapon

View Postcaravann, on 26 November 2021 - 12:13 PM, said:

you say you want to use ac2, 2x ac2 deals 4 damage but 2xac2 + LBX deals 5 damage and you can pick any LBX

LB5-X = 5 damage? LB2-X = 2 damage. There is no 2xAC2 + any LB-X that does 5 damage combined. Also LB10-X sucks pretty badly (Because of the spread and velocity difference to AC2.) when shooted into ranges that AC2s are usually used.

View Postcaravann, on 26 November 2021 - 12:13 PM, said:

The reason why to pick an LBX is because it is an Inner sphere mech. If it was a clan mech the LBX could been replaced with a ERPPC who deals splash damage at long range. Clan has shorts on UAC and deals single action with LBX.

Reason is what? you forgot to write the reason for this.

View Postcaravann, on 26 November 2021 - 12:13 PM, said:

gauss work well with RAC2, I have it as backup with MRM but it can be used with RAC solely

No not really, hugely different velocities and range + you got a bit hard time ramming them both with sufficient ammo into medium mech...

View Postcaravann, on 26 November 2021 - 12:13 PM, said:

chain fire is used on medium lasers to overcome ghost heating and to make each laser check a critical hit.
weapons like UAC and chain-fired Lasers or PPC has a familiar mechanic.

100% FALSE, absolute lie.

View Postcaravann, on 26 November 2021 - 12:13 PM, said:

IS has Light ppc with up to 1km range. this is the normal range for snipers as their optimal range is at 1km
there's no reason why to pick up at least one, it 100% better to have 1 light ppc than no ppc at all. since it has longer range than a 1 ton tag laser. At 1km many mechs with ecm are not noticed.

540 meters not 1KM. true that even at 1KM it will drop opponents ECM BUT it is not that simple to hit peeking HBR from 1K away with LPPC.

View Postcaravann, on 26 November 2021 - 02:50 PM, said:

the light ppc is not for damage, it is to remove the ecm.

5.5 dmg for each hit.

View Postcaravann, on 26 November 2021 - 02:50 PM, said:

the lbx is not a main weapon in my example, it is to give critical chance boost without a computer.

You and your crits... it does 10 damage / 4.4 DPS that is all it needs to do with that much tonnage and slots and specially if it's crammed into BJ it is sure as hell main weapon. There is no need to fish some few percent damage increase with random crits.

View Postcaravann, on 26 November 2021 - 02:50 PM, said:

the lasers are not to stupidly hold down the button, it is to fire each and every laser one after another, this will increase the chances to make a critical hit.

Talking about stupidly... chainfire will only increase your own exposure time to enemy fire aka you will die faster AND spread. 0% chance on critical hits. One of the worst advice I have ever seen in MWO forums and I have seen some pretty damn bad before.

View Postcaravann, on 26 November 2021 - 02:50 PM, said:

If you can not understand the most simplest knowledge about why a LBX does not need a computer I don't know what to say.

Maybe you can tell us why?

#18 ScrapIron Prime

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 3,905 posts
  • LocationSmack dab in the middle of Ohio

Posted 27 November 2021 - 04:16 AM

View PostThorqemada, on 27 November 2021 - 03:19 AM, said:


This perception may come from experiences players had that when they would fire multiple weapons at the same time MWO did less damage than if you would chainfire.

I had the same experience with several weapons on several Mechs where firing multiple weapons (same type and different type) did not the expected damage and alternating groupfire or chainfiring a weapon group would pretty much double the damage output (not only proven by numbers but also by success aka kills).

That time is quite a while ago but the knowledge prevailed and you never know if it comes back on certain circumstances.

I would not deny it per se...


I’m sorry, but that makes no sense. Chain firing does not increase damage or critical chances, all it does is spread out the time it takes to deal damage. Chain fire has a positive effect on managing heat and a psychological effect on the target (he’s still shooting me!), but it doesn’t change the weapon damage or increase the crit chances. I don’t’ see where you would derive that information.

#19 Nomad Tech

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Shredder
  • Shredder
  • 3,394 posts
  • LocationAustralia

Posted 27 November 2021 - 04:25 AM

If you like the Blackjack i'd suggest the Arrow. BJ-A its a fairly good mech.

Some other good Inner Sphere mediums are
Hunchbacks
Enforcers
Crabs

Imo they are the best to do well in a team situation. There are others but many imo are niche.

#20 D A T A

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Death Star
  • Death Star
  • 876 posts
  • LocationCasamassima, Bari, south Italy

Posted 27 November 2021 - 05:58 AM

View PostNecessaryWeevil, on 26 November 2021 - 11:33 AM, said:

Hi, so my Medium mech of choice right now is a Blackjack. Trying to play it as long range direct fire support, with sufficient mobility to reach good firing positions and withdraw from bad ones.

I started with Rotary AC/2s, but that required too much facetime, so I switched to Ultras. Finding myself wishing I could do something to hostiles I spotted at longer ranges, I've now switched to a Light Gauss Rifle plus 4 MLs. But whereas I could use the Ultras up close, using the Gauss means I play more cautiously and I've noticed I spend more time maneuvering for position.

Regardless of the mech I play, I tend to average around 300 damage per round, but in this one in particular that tends to come in the second half of the match.

So my question is - is this helping my team or is there a better way to do it, preferably while remaining at range?

PS This in Tier 5 where I seem to be permanently.


if you need to use a blackjack at all costs and you want to go long range then equip a 2erppc BJ 3 or find the best one with laser related quirks and put 3 ERLL





1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users