39 replies to this topic

[Jeff on a Buffalo]

This is just my point of view on it, I am curious if it is inline with the FW community at large.
My view is that if one is soloing in FW (ie they are one of the PUGs in the match), there is an etiquette that a PUG should be playing under. I'll list them here in no particular order.
1. The PUG should drop on the side that requires players to make a match. That is assuming they have the mechs to support that though. If they only have mechs of IS or Clans then so be it that that is the side they drop on.
2. They should be prepared to bring fully skilled mechs that suits the map/play-mode. If there is a Drop Caller (DC) that pipes up on chat that requests particular mechs be brought to the match, the PUG should try to fulfill that request if they have the mechs to support it.
3. During the match the PUG should play as well as he can to support the team and if there is a DC, follow the DC's direction as best as the PUG can. If there is no DC but there is a dominant unit within your team (example 5 X GWAR pers and it is the most pers of one unit on your team), a PUG should try to follow that units lead as best as the PUG can.
4. If there is no DC, then the PUG should try to play as best as the PUG can to best support the team.
5. The PUG should regroup with the team for each of the four waves and not reinforce the existing force unless told to do so by the DC.
7. If your team gets slaughtered first wave (ex loosing 12/2), and there is no one DC'ing, then the PUG can do as the PUG sees fit and is not behooven to their team anymore. The PUG can either try to work towards getting an individual high score/damage, maybe try something new/different on a different part of the map, or even suiciding their mechs. At this point the match is already over, the team is not going to win, so who cares at this point.
There is a couple of other generic items I could have put in here wrt using comms, targeting enemy mechs and such but I am focusing here more on the FW aspect.
Again, this is just my point of view. I know there might be some other thoughts on this though.

Edited by Jeff on a Buffalo, 07 January 2022 - 03:24 PM.

[Hobbles v]

When I call stuff, I tend to just let the pugs know what we are doing and just let them decide if they wanna join. I find it's often better to let them do thier own thing if they seem to consciously decide to ignore our plans. They'll probably do better in their comfort zone.

However if they are at 80% hiding in the back on thier first mech while most of the team is on thier 3rd getting stuff done I'll get on thier case. It's lead to more than one execution for cowardice.

I dont care if they suck. To be a "good" pug you just need to be active. Try to get stuff done, fight with the team, take the initiative, don't stand around around waiting for the enemy or to be told what to do.

[LordNothing]

the problem with 1 is the unpopulous side is almost always going to be lacking almost anything resembling an organized group. and the side that is full ususually has multiple teams ready to go. its a surefire way to make sure the pug never comes back, unless they are some kind of masochist.

game really needs to spawn a civil war match when that happens. rather than trying to find players for the mode, why not try to generate a scenario that matches the contents of the queue.

[John Bronco]

If I'm solo I pick whichever side is likely to get me in a game the fastest, for which you need to account for who is already in the queue, who is already in games (friends list and/or twitch), and who appears to be getting ready to join the queue. So it's a moving target.

In a group, mostly the same, the exception being if it is a larger high skill group we will always try to attack as that usually produces the most contested games.

[Yondu Udonta]

Pretty much that other than one part. Suiciding should never be condoned. You chose to queue solo, so bear the consequences of ****** teammates and play the match properly until you used up all your mechs. Overaggroing is a grey line IMO, but it is definitely better than people who just eject/OOB/cook their mechs and quit.

[Jeff on a Buffalo]

I thought that last one might garner some opposite views on the matter. My point of view is that it is better to get a lost cause done and over with and move on to the next match than to continue a match where you are obviously getting completely slaughtered and farmed. If there is still a DC trying to call the match or if there is still people in an organized fashion fighting back then suiciding is not the way to go for sure but other than that I don't really see the point anymore in trying. I was kinda curious if I was alone in my thoughts on that matter. Maybe I need to rethink that a bit more?

[Nathan White]

Jeff on a Buffalo, on 10 January 2022 - 08:48 AM, said:

I thought that last one might garner some opposite views on the matter. My point of view is that it is better to get a lost cause done and over with and move on to the next match than to continue a match where you are obviously getting completely slaughtered and farmed. If there is still a DC trying to call the match or if there is still people in an organized fashion fighting back then suiciding is not the way to go for sure but other than that I don't really see the point anymore in trying. I was kinda curious if I was alone in my thoughts on that matter. Maybe I need to rethink that a bit more?

This is the reason why most QP/FP matches are ****. People see a score like 0-3 (or 2-12 after first wave, if we are talking about FP) and their morale are collapsed. But the fight hasn't been lost yet at this moment. Their panic becomes the cause of defeat.

[Jeff on a Buffalo]

QP? QP is just soup to level mechs, do some lance training, maybe do some c-bill farming, maybe try a new load-out for a mech to see if it works, maybe to do some drops with the unit to be social.. I honestly care little abut winning or loosing in QP.

[Sjorpha]

I disagree with 1, I actually think it's pretty bad if there is a group on one side and the other team ends up being only pugs. And if pugs would adhere to the suggestion here you'd have the effect that a group queueing on one side pushes pugs to queue for the other, that would be bad.

It's better if groups are "forced" to balance the queue so there are groups on both sides, pugs should just drop for the side they feel like.

The others are good advice, but at the same time I'm happy for each player that drops FW at all. People are new and don't know what to do and that's ok.

[Jeff on a Buffalo]

Sjorpha, on 10 January 2022 - 04:49 PM, said:

I disagree with 1, I actually think it's pretty bad if there is a group on one side and the other team ends up being only pugs. And if pugs would adhere to the suggestion here you'd have the effect that a group queueing on one side pushes pugs to queue for the other, that would be bad.

Not quite what I meant there. What I mean is that if you see the que is 15 pilots in Inner Sphere and 7 pilots dropping Clans, a PUG should try to drop with Clans to make a match occur sooner. Who knows, it might be a 6 man group dropping in Clans and you are bolstering their numbers so it is not necessarily all PUGs dropping on that side.

The other point about groups should be the ones to balance the que, I would assume if a group sees the que is leaning for one particular side they would join the other side that requires players to make a match, assuming they all have the mechs to support it I suppose. Kinda outside the scope of this forum post though.

Edited by Jeff on a Buffalo, 10 January 2022 - 06:30 PM.

[Tarl Cabot]

Jeff on a Buffalo, on 10 January 2022 - 08:48 AM, said:

I thought that last one might garner some opposite views on the matter. My point of view is that it is better to get a lost cause done and over with and move on to the next match than to continue a match where you are obviously getting completely slaughtered and farmed. If there is still a DC trying to call the match or if there is still people in an organized fashion fighting back then suiciding is not the way to go for sure but other than that I don't really see the point anymore in trying. I was kinda curious if I was alone in my thoughts on that matter. Maybe I need to rethink that a bit more?

Remember, suiciding/pushing out without waiting for the next wave may allow the player to leave the match sooner, or simply leaving the mech without getting mechs kills, but those mechs are still locked in til the match is over with. Since I have not tried starting a new match with different mechs with another dropdeck is available or not. In Quickplay a player is able to leave a match and drop again in a different match with a different mech but would a player do the same in Faction Play with a different dropdeck with totally different mechs? Those mechs are also locked out for Quickplay, until the FP match ends.

Still. Said player do it enough.. reported/possible suspension and/or team takes it into their own hands to rid a player from a match when it is a repeat offender who ends up dropping with mostly the same players... FP does not have a high population. And suiciding/leaving the game early is a reportable offense, and will also rack up automatic delays in starting the next match.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 10 January 2022 - 09:16 PM.

[Jeff on a Buffalo]

Tarl Cabot's take is taking a bit to the extreme of what I am suggesting so maybe I am not making myself perfectly clear in what I wrote. Apologies on that.
I listed that one wrt not caring about the match anymore when it is perfectly clear the match is not winnable and there is little chance your team is going to turn it around to win the match. There is no leadership on your side directing a way to win the match, your side has little to no positive communication amongst the players, your team is getting completely slaughtered. It is an extreme situation in FW that occurs from time to time, enough that it warrants having a statement made on it in my original list, and one that if one is PUG'ing it in FW long enough like I have, you will see it from time to time. I am not disparaging that that occurs. FW is where some of the better players play and where you see 12 man groups drop on. The best organized groups should stomp the other side if the other side is a bunch of unorganized PUGs, it is just how it is.
I am not saying that suiciding is the only option or the preferred option. If one wants to keep playing to try and get a high damage score, maybe try and suggest a manouvre to the team to see what happens, maybe explore the map a bit to try and find new fire positions or something else, have at it. Your team is still going to get slaughtered but you are getting something from the match I guess. At this point it does not matter what you do in this match since it is unwinnable.
I am probably wording this all wrong, apologies on that. The people that I normally drop with in FW know my play-style and how I play the game. I admit I have been playing to a very low level lately and probably a bit too over-aggressive at times with non-brawl mechs and throw away mechs at times too quickly and cheaply, but that is how it goes at times in games like this I guess.
Cheers! This is a good conversation, it has not changed my mind on much yet but it is making me atleast look at things again.

[Ignatius Audene]

and why not simply try your best?

[Jeff on a Buffalo]

Ignatius Audene, on 11 January 2022 - 09:41 AM, said:

and why not simply try your best?

Well, that goes along with point 3 of the original PUG etiquette list so I am not sure what you specifically mean. My view is that one should try their best for as long as it makes sense to. At some point one sometimes needs to accept a foregone conclusion I guess. If your team is going to get completely slaughtered then it is going to get completely slaughtered, just how it is at times. I am not disparaging that fact, just how it is at times for some matches.

Edited by Jeff on a Buffalo, 11 January 2022 - 02:52 PM.

[SVEDRUM]

Jeff on a Buffalo, I think so: if you go to play like a PUG in FP, then the first thing you get in line is on the side where there are fewer players. Second. You take mechs that best fit the selected map. You, as a PUG, never take LRM to attack.
Third. You always try to play as well as possible. Even if you see that your team is losing.
Fourth. Even if after the first wave you see the score 0/12, you as a PUG do not lose heart and continue to play as a team player. Fifth. The FP game ends when the goal is reached, or the entire team is destroyed, either the enemy or yours.
And the last thing. You never suicide mechs. You can eject only if you run out of ammo, you have all your weapons destroyed, or you can't make it to the next wave.

FP is not a QP, here the team wins, even from the PUGs.
So try to play as well as possible. Or don't play FP at all!

[Jeff on a Buffalo]

Svedrum, we are on the same page with your point 1,2, and 3. Wrt your point 4, if the team is getting slaughtered and there is still good communication in the team or if there is a DC making calls, then I would agree with you.

[Duke Falcon]

I know my opinion worth almost nothing but, yeah, I am a PUG, so I try to tell how I see particularly these things...

I am a PUG because I could never able to make a group on my own to FP (almost noone in my unit plays FP, what bolsters the troubles, but better not follow that way now). So I drop into the queue myself alone, hope my would-be team would be good because - sorry this enough myself - I am not a great player. I may rise to middle T4 or so if I wish but I decided to remain in T5 where people are more forgiving about my sudden playstyles and erratic in-game decisions...
So...
I hope for a good team and I hope I could help them a tid-bit myself as a PUG. I usually follow those whom I met frequently and proven decent persons (QContinuum, for example but many others are out there of course). Communication is another thing but at least I try to follow the others. As a PUG that is the least what my team may expect, right?
But teammates sometimes are another question. I play on clan side aiming to climb the Jade Falcon ranks. It means my team usually consist of other PUGs + a few members belongs to the same unit. That is OK, even if the oppforce's members are the very same in 80% of the matches (Ignatius Audene, Fluch des Schlachtfeldes, Stinker, Dahr, Gesper and the others, really deadly opponents but I like to try to face them). That is all OK.
Troubles rise when many PUGs start to debate and tell the others how and what to do and the opinions not seems to get closer to each others. Who may one follows? Whose opinion or plan would I support? Because when "better and more experienced" players start a flamewar the team literally fall into separate members futile struggling against a well-coordinated or organised enemy. I not know how it works on the IS side (IS vs IS matches seems to vanished, what I really sorry) but on the clan side such debates often happens. And some PUGs not just not know what to do but not care either. When you see someone constantly rush to reinforce despite 3-5 team members asks not to do so, and such member dies approximately toward the middle of second wave, that is another question. I am not sure that such people join the match just to see what is FP or to troll the match but rare newcomers whom see that may have false examples and\or experience.
A problem because FP really needs some serious love because FP IS MWO, no matter who say what, QP is just living test-ground for FP mechs (as someone noted it above)... I really think the community (PGI?) should try to conscript more players to FP albeit not sure how. Perhaps FP-exclusive events would help (play 15-20 FP matches for a free medium mech or such)... FP is just way to good to let it vanish, be us PUGs or teams.
Oh, and I saw many anti-LRM stuffs here. I not say but those could be usefull in defense and domination. They are good to soften targets for the better marksmen whom could reap the kills. I know many may say damage farming. Not sure if damage is more important or the kills but clearly kills win the match. I use LRM in FP if the map and\or mode supports that but hey! I won creeping death in Solaris city with a 3xLRM15 Summoner... That is why I like FP so much: Not all the maps are lurmfest, it forces me to use direct-fire designs and learn to use them properly (still learning, sorry).
But overall, Ash's summary could be the adage of FP: "Try to play as well as possible. Or don't play FP at all!"
As a sidenote for that: "If you are not good enough yet, try further!" < So, we may not lose newcomers
And thanks for all the FP matches for everyone whom still fight there! Today would I have my 75.th match, hope it would be a win

[Jeff on a Buffalo]

Mr Falcon. Wrt LRMs. My opinion is that a LRM mech, in a team context, can be a good support mech. In an organized team, LRM mechs in certain situations can be quite powerful. I think though that if you are PUG'ing it alone in FW you need to generally bring mechs that is a bit more flexible that you can try to fit in with the rest of the team. In general ,in my opinion, LRM mechs do not provide that so PUGs should not bring LRM mechs into FW. It is generally better to either bring skirmish mechs or long-range direct fire mechs depending on the map and play mode.

Edited by Jeff on a Buffalo, 12 January 2022 - 10:00 AM.

[Sjorpha]

Jeff on a Buffalo, on 10 January 2022 - 06:10 PM, said:

Not quite what I meant there. What I mean is that if you see the que is 15 pilots in Inner Sphere and 7 pilots dropping Clans, a PUG should try to drop with Clans to make a match occur sooner. Who knows, it might be a 6 man group dropping in Clans and you are bolstering their numbers so it is not necessarily all PUGs dropping on that side.

The other point about groups should be the ones to balance the que, I would assume if a group sees the que is leaning for one particular side they would join the other side that requires players to make a match, assuming they all have the mechs to support it I suppose. Kinda outside the scope of this forum post though.

Some groups do, some don't. But the group is more likely to switch if the pugs don't. Let's say there are 2 7man groups and 18pugs. 9 pugs on each side and both groups on one side, so the queue is unbalanced at 23/9. Let's say both groups would prefer to stay on their side, maybe they're even one of those groups that prefers easy games and know the other group is strong or whatnot, if they see the 9 ticking to 10 or 11 because the pugs are switching they are more likely to just stay and wait for the pugstomp. So it's better if the pugs don't switch so they eventually have to do it.

Now of course I don't mind if a pug switches to balance the queue, especially strong players who knows that they don't weaken the teams they end up on, but I don't think they should feel obligated to do it. The groups IMO are obligated to try and get matches against other groups as much as they can. Also groups have more experienced players with more mechs so they can switch easier and can take more responsibility.

Edited by Sjorpha, 12 January 2022 - 02:50 PM.

[Far Reach]

Being truly honest with ourselves is important.
Do any of you really think a pug would grind up a full drop deck, skill the mechs ect.

To be rolled in game after game after game by merciless comp teams?
Anyone wonder why this game is no-so-slowly dying? The "pros" are so "pro" they drive away any new blood.

Your average young gamer wouldn't look at this mess for a second before dismissing it offhand. Who's to blame?

Is it the hardcore 1% of compers?
"NO, It is the zoomers who are wrong" Spat the comp teams, but their echoes carry on forever hollow.

Edited by Far Reach, 23 January 2022 - 05:10 PM.