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Dakka Feels Clumsy

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#1 Dubious Squirrel

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Posted 14 January 2022 - 12:02 PM

Specifically UAC10/UAC5 builds: Once golden, now they feel clumsy and near impotent against lazer meta. I have no suggestions on this, only trying to find out whether its my imagination. Or not?

Edited by Dubious Squirrel, 14 January 2022 - 12:03 PM.


#2 Capt Deadpool

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Posted 14 January 2022 - 12:42 PM

Meta has shifted to lessen former dominance of dakka relative to loadouts using energy and gauss.

However, there are still plenty of loadouts utilizing massed UAC2 and UAC5 that can still wreck face. You just need play smarter with the ranges you engage at with them compared to before where there were less loadouts that could effectively counter them.

#3 1453 R

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Posted 14 January 2022 - 01:32 PM

Dakka 'Mechs tend to have a decisive DPS advantage over laser 'Mechs. Tend, mind...but the laser-based 'Mechs that can contend with autocannon DPS are usually LPL boats that don't have large alpha numbers and more-or-less operate like energy based autocannon builds.

The key is generally to bait out, juke, twist off, or otherwise avoid/endure the first laser fusillade, and then hammer the laser 'Mech. They'll heatcap after two, maybe three shots, while you can keep shooting for minutes at a time. If they can't kill or cripple you in their first salvo, the advantage rapidly starts swinging back towards the autocannon user. Cool Shot can wreck that engagement, which sucks. Frankly that's the only real jank in the match-up - there's no possible way for someone to tell if their target can just magically ignore their heat bar without justification and thus act in a way that defies logic and reason. Coolant pods exist, you should have to equip them if you want 'Cool Shots'.

Beyond that, though? Proper autocannon 'Mechs can deal more damage over a five to ten-second period than just about any energy-based 'Mech. The energy boats can frontload the first shot, but that's it - that's their entire edge (beyond ease of aim for lasers). Hell, PPC-based machines can't even do that - PPCs have less DPS, less front-loaded damage, and less sustainability than autocannons. You do have to be careful, and you have to actually afford energy vomit 'Mechs proper respect, but canny play lets autocannons do just fine.

Which is as it should be. Play to your strengths, work to deny the enemy theirs, and you win more than you lose. Don't do that, and...well.

#4 Apteko

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Posted 14 January 2022 - 02:21 PM

> Once golden, now they feel clumsy and near impotent against lazer meta.

Yes. Better dps overall with less heat generation just doesn't work against four stalkers standing on key spots a kilometer away. Alpha matters way more. On some maps you can make dakka work and work wonders, on some there is no chance.

Edited by Apteko, 14 January 2022 - 02:25 PM.


#5 1453 R

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Posted 14 January 2022 - 02:37 PM

...can I ask why so many people believe they deserve to have a fair chance to win a fight, solo, by themselves...against the full firepower of four assault 'Mechs?

If you've wandered into the field of fire of four separate ERLL Battery stalkers? First of all, that's a rarity in itself in QP, those things are very specialized builds that don't show up often in QP. Second of all...that's a you problem, not a MWO problem. Despite what jackwads who have no idea how to do anything but Moron Bumrush the middle of the map think, there's no map in the game where a small number of snipers can completely control a map. Hibernal is the closest you get, and even there you have options. Don't charge like a braindead goober across a thousand meters of open ground into the teeth of multiple enemy assault-weight snipers and you'll lose fewer games.

#6 Apteko

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Posted 14 January 2022 - 02:38 PM

> can I ask why so many people believe they deserve to have a fair chance to win a fight, solo, by themselves...against the full firepower of four assault 'Mechs?

and who exactly said anything like that in this thread?
You've created a strawman, you fought with a strawman, you won. Take a cookie.

Edited by Apteko, 14 January 2022 - 02:39 PM.


#7 1453 R

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Posted 14 January 2022 - 02:55 PM

Yeah, that's not gonna fly, Ap. You specifically stated, and I quote:

View PostApteko, on 14 January 2022 - 02:21 PM, said:

...
Better dps overall with less heat generation just doesn't work against four stalkers standing on key spots a kilometer away.
...


The clear and obvious implication is that dakka won't do you any good against four Stalkers simultaneously blasting you with sniper weapons from a klick away. Ahem: duh? If you feel like standing and dickering with four assault-weight snipers all hosing you at once from a klick away, then yes - the DPS advantage of ballistic weaponry disappears. Because you're being a flying idiot. Take cover and approach through cover; engage closer targets to whittle away the snipers' shieldwall; withdraw and bait the enemy's close-range fighters into ground the snipers can't see.

I don't often die to sniper fire, even down here in the pigsty of T4. I'll take damage from snipers, sure. But my answer isn't to say "oh ****, there's a sniper. Whelp, guess I'm dead, better just hang it up and wait for the next match", stand dead still, and wait for them to finish. My answer is to immediately seek cover, and to avoid places on the map where I know snipers have wide, unobstructed views of their targets and thus plenty of time to punish mispositioning.

When you take sniper fire in a non-sniper 'Mech, don't complain about the sniper existing. Don't complain about not being able to shoot back. Work on engineering a way to get to a place where you can shoot back. Remember - snipey bois have s#$% terrible DPS and often only middling alphas. Autocannon brawlers will eat their lunch damn near for free if they can close ground. It's the midrange Deathstar beamvomit guys you have to be wary of, not necessarily snipers.

Edited by 1453 R, 14 January 2022 - 02:56 PM.


#8 Apteko

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Posted 14 January 2022 - 03:07 PM

> The clear and obvious implication is that dakka won't do you any good against four Stalkers simultaneously blasting you with sniper weapons from a klick away.

Oh, my bad, I always forget that certain people feel better by assuming every person around them to be a moron and writing long walls of text. It is cute how you continue even when there is quite a good indication that nobody here meant something as strange as "I should take alpha of four LL stalkers in my dakka mech simultaneously".

Edited by Apteko, 14 January 2022 - 03:07 PM.


#9 RickySpanish

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Posted 14 January 2022 - 05:54 PM

Walls of reorganized copy pasted text are your opponent's specialty. But don't worry, you are quite right: Superior DPS is useless versus high alpha when it is enough to cripple you before your damage per second edge can show. While lasers are burning the boat will be out damaging most autocannon builds, and you won't force them out of cover as they are too far away. Now the real deal is to mix ER Larges with Gauss Rifles, this is the new meta IMO.

#10 1453 R

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Posted 14 January 2022 - 06:26 PM

Have an opinion that takes longer to read than a Twitterati shitpost, because it actually contains logic, reason, and evidence.

Get accused of "wall of text"ing.

Classic.

All right gentlemen, I was going to give it some time, wait for someone else to chime in on the subject rather than deal with Apteko's whole "I totally didn't say exactly what literally anyone can read that I absolutely said" nonsense. But y'all wanted to ride this train, so now somebody's head is going up somebody else's a$@

So.

If autocannon builds are oh-so-terrible, absolutely unplayable, and horrible moose piss compared to high-damage laser alphas...why are all the top-rated meta assault loadouts dakka-based? Why are all the top compy builds based on LB/X autocannons and PPCs, with lasers only generally showing up on smaller, lighter 'Mechs that cannot bring massed PPFLD to bear? Why do high-level players generally favor pulse lasers, when they utilize lasers at all?

The answer is simple, darlings. Lasers spread like a motherf@#$er. The opportunity cost of those huge, 75+-point laser alphas is heatcapping yourself after two shots, if you even get a second full shot in the first place. The reality of those huge, 75+-damage laser alphas is being unable to deliver your damage to a single component against a target remotely aware of your presence, and in many cases losing damage altogether as your burns slide off target - and the further away you are from your target, the more pronounced the effect becomes. ERLL snipers have to be almost superhumanly precise to deal impactful damage rather than just hosing down the entire front of your 'Mech for negligible damage to any given component. Even simply normal movement of a target 'Mech is enough to spread ERLL sniper damage everywhere, given that extended-range lasers have a$%hole long burn times and their users are generally far enough away that even minor point-of-aim shifts will drag the lasers off target entirely.

There's a very good reason ERLL boats are usually considered a specialist strategy only really viable in coordinated drops in Fakshun Play. Being an effective contributor to your team in Quackplay with an ERLL boat takes exceptional aim, fantastic awareness, and a convergence of factors generally beyond the ERLL boat's control.

Now, midrange builds like HLL/ERML Hellbringers? Various flaovrs of LPL boat? Those can be very dangerous - if you let them get the fight they want. Those builds want to shoot once from the midst of dense cover out to 'bout 300 to 600 or so meters, then back off into their cover to let their poor overworked heat sinks do their job. If they're caught out in the open, they get one single shot to try and defend themselves before they're heatcapped in most instances, and while they're burning you they can't twist or protect themselves. Heavy and assault autocannon-centric builds can weather that first shot and then proceed to tear the laser trader's face off. I know, I've done it countless times recently in my megablap Scorch. Medium autocannon builds are generally nimble enough to avoid taking critical damage from a single energy burn if the pilot is canny and the laser burner is an average shot.

Because remember - however absolutely godawful your aim is? Everybody else in your match is probably just as rotten. Lasers are point-and-click hitscan, yes, but they're also duration weapons. Even minimal bob-and-weave spreads their damage out, while your autocannon punches a single component with every (non-LBX) shell.

If you let a big-burn alpha-focused energy 'Mech play the peeky-pokey chickendickery game, yes - it will beat you. It's built specifically to chickendick, it wants to chickendick, it welcomes chickendicking. If you want to beat it? Stop it from chickendicking. Which means you need to get your own team to stop chickendicking in turn, go out there, chase the bastid down and force him to cry steamboiled tears in his neurohelmet as his overheated chickendicking machine comes apart around him from sustained damage.

What you two are doing is complaining that playstyles other than big-bore, point-blank autocannon nutbusting are valid. Ricky, you've been doing that for months now, everybody knows your score by now. Stop it. You're factually incorrect, you know it, so knock it off.

Apteko? You picked up the game a month ago. if you're legitimately new? Hi. Welcome to the ongoing tire fire that is MWO. Overall weapon/chassis/playstyle balance is actually in a better place right now than it's been in years. You'll pick up tricks for dealing with things like laservomit Hellbringers as you go. If, as I rather more strongly suspect, you're somebody's alt account used for trolling or dodging a high PSR? Same as Ricky - stop it. You know better. You not liking lasers doesn't make them overpowered.

#11 KaptinOrk

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Posted 14 January 2022 - 06:29 PM

View PostRickySpanish, on 14 January 2022 - 05:54 PM, said:

But don't worry, you are quite right: Superior DPS is useless versus high alpha when it is enough to cripple you before your damage per second edge can show.


As someone that's trying to bridge the gap from T4 top T3 in cool running, DPS builds, this is my reality.

People sh*t on ghost heat left and right, but they forget that it's the only thing holding back the truly absurd alphas.

Edited by KaptinOrk, 14 January 2022 - 06:29 PM.


#12 RickySpanish

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Posted 14 January 2022 - 09:19 PM

View Post1453 R, on 14 January 2022 - 06:26 PM, said:

*WORDS!!*


An impressive wall of text - as always. You do like the spectacle. Blue lasers in general are meta in QP. I don't care what authority you appeal to, come chat about it on Grimmechs discord if you like. Any 'Mech you can fit 3 CLPL onto with enough heatsinks to eat ghost heat when trading, or even better, 4-5 ERLL with Gauss, is unbelievably good. You could field 4 AC2 4 UAC 2 Ultraviolet against it I suppose, but blue lasers and red laser backup wins the day Executioner is the best Assault 'Mech in the game right now. I didn't believe it at first, but there you go. For the record, I love lasers and HATE autocannons. So you are wrong about that too. I just don't begrudge others their weapons of choice.

Edited by RickySpanish, 14 January 2022 - 09:20 PM.


#13 RickySpanish

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Posted 14 January 2022 - 09:22 PM

View PostKaptinOrk, on 14 January 2022 - 06:29 PM, said:


As someone that's trying to bridge the gap from T4 top T3 in cool running, DPS builds, this is my reality.

People sh*t on ghost heat left and right, but they forget that it's the only thing holding back the truly absurd alphas.


Even better when that alpha is coming at you from Zimbabwe and all you got are those 500 metre effective range ACs that fire in a burst and converge where they feel like.

#14 Ignatius Audene

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Posted 15 January 2022 - 12:26 AM

Sadly pgi balance the weapons around qp (and gave this order to cauldron). That leads to a *********** alpha meta in fp worst than ever before. Lasers and or heatsinks would need a hard nerv, but since everyone likes the powerspirale better buff everything else again...

Edited by Ignatius Audene, 15 January 2022 - 12:27 AM.


#15 panzer1b

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Posted 15 January 2022 - 09:49 AM

While i do not agree with the assesment that dakka is bad by any means, the recent gulag patches have brought lasers and other weapons to be much closer to dakka in a 1v1 matchup. The sad fact is that about a year or so ago (dont recall exact date that the gulag ideas started being implemented), lasers were really not that great due to alot of nerfs, so dakka had a massive advantage against em in the majority of situations, inclusing single exposuredamage on assault classes (since the common 2x10+2x5 build allowed a potential for 60 damage provided it didnt jam up, and even then it was likely to do at least 50 damage even with 1 jam.

That said, nowadays though, uac based dakka didnt recieve any significant buffs, so naturally its downsides start to show through much more since other weapons can compete even in a DPS role to more of a degree. Dakka is still the king of raw DPS and i dont see that changing, but its projectiles make it harder to use against faster targets, and its far from PPFLD (lasers have a much easier time hitting 1 component against moving targets and arelt competely useless against light mechs from outside of brawl ranges.

Still, 2x10+2x5 is a very strong setup on both clam and IS, and its far from weak, just nolonger the dominant build that everyone runs constantly in QP like it was a year ago or so. I run that on my blood asp Bs and it wrecks teams provided i play to the advantage of DPS builds and dont try and play pokewarrior with it like a laser mech...

#16 KaptinOrk

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Posted 15 January 2022 - 12:59 PM

View PostRickySpanish, on 14 January 2022 - 09:22 PM, said:

Even better when that alpha is coming at you from Zimbabwe and all you got are those 500 metre effective range ACs that fire in a burst and converge where they feel like.


I'm more into MRMs and medium lasers these days, so it's the same thing. MRMs are technically "mid range" weapons, but they're realistically more like brawling weapons due to the projectile speed and spread.

#17 RickySpanish

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Posted 15 January 2022 - 03:43 PM

View PostKaptinOrk, on 15 January 2022 - 12:59 PM, said:


I'm more into MRMs and medium lasers these days, so it's the same thing. MRMs are technically "mid range" weapons, but they're realistically more like brawling weapons due to the projectile speed and spread.


Wolverine 7k with mrm 20s is interesting, lowish speed for a medium though.

#18 LordNothing

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Posted 15 January 2022 - 07:05 PM

the uac10s are really strong. the rest are kind of meh.

smaller uacs are still dps weapons reguardless of how much effort has gone into making them do burst damage, and as such they arent as good as a huge fast damage dump. you end up boating them and they become defacto dps weapons because they don't all jam all at once. they are better off being balanced as dps weapons. but i dont totally hate where they are at because they have range.

the uac20 can damage dump, but the game is playing at longer ranges these days. i think a fix for those is give them a longer max range. give the is version a 3x optimal, clan about 2.5x optimal.

..................optimal...max...half damage
is uac20.......270......810....540
clan uac20...360......900....630

this will make the 20 class preform a bit better at mid range. it would actually outperform the uac10s at this range, but would be a bit of an ammo hog with too much heat if you use it like this. would give you a little trade power early match for otherwise pure brawly builds. it would probibly also involve refactoring the standard ac20s so they don't get completely obsoleted.

Edited by LordNothing, 15 January 2022 - 07:15 PM.


#19 Blood Rose

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Posted 16 January 2022 - 05:00 AM

The ageold problem is convergence. Snipers can happily line up a wall of blue lasers or PPC shots and just melt through a huge chunk of armour so long as they have a steady hand because Lasers are a light (heh) weapon in comparison to, say, an AC. In Tabletop the lack of PP concentrated damage helps mitigate this issue but PGI did away with Timed Convergence and ever since then its been a constant struggle to balance time to kill with insane gunboats.
I have a Gargoyle C that boats 6 CERML (not even the worst kind) and a UAC20, and the CERML are by far the primary battery, being more reliable (they dont jam every 5 seconds), having a longer range and being able to deliver more concentrated damage per shot than the UAC20.
If you have ERLL, or CLPL and a good aim you can easily dominate most maps. ERPPC and Gauss combos sort of work too, but it comes down to the fact that there are few maps where not taking a sniping or long range loadout is a bad thing, and lasers let people front load a vomit strike of damage that can cripple or seriously damage most targets in a good hit. Sniping players keep telling those who want to brawl or try other play styles to "just rush down the snipers, you can win in a tradeoff if you get in range" whilst completely missing the fact that most shorter range builds will take significant damage on the way in and will typically be easily dispatched once they get there, unless they take a long flanking route that may leave them travelling for 5 minutes or more whilst their team gets butchered. And one many maps that is not even an option (HPG). Further, even a fresh brawling build will take significant damage in that short firefight with the Sniper, possibly rendering it unable to partake in further meaningful action for the team whereas the sniper build usually only has to worry about other snipers.

#20 Dauntless Blint

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Posted 19 January 2022 - 05:32 AM

UAC5's (and 10's somewhat) are pretty **** now, spent an evening boating them. Sad as f*** compared to the old days. Trash tier for the average player. Too hot, not enough ammo per ton(old nerf), spread everywhere, need too much time to support staring straight at your targets and now everything has more Armour to make heat and staring problems even worse and some jam and cycle slower than they did in days of old despite indirect nerfs. Laser vomit pinpoint 2 clicks side torso removed or CT crit/dead no contest.

Old Favourite weapon = junkpile, even with carefully curated macro which I would never be sweaty enough to use in the past. You're looking for MWO circa 2016.

BUT! there is some hope as Navid wants to test UAC's that don't jam. So they might get a better sustained damage profile at the bitter end.

Normal caveats, personal opinion... yadda yadda.





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