21 replies to this topic

[Tie Dyed Ninja]

Someone asked in another thread, but of course it's locked because MWO forum. So I decided to make a new thread because I still think it can benefit newbies who might happen to read this. Here's the first mech I made when I came back to the game on my new account. I'm years out of practice, but it's still not uncommon for me to get 600 to 1000 damage and 2 or 3 kills in this thing. And it takes almost no skill. It's basically just stay behind (but close to) your team and click buttons when you get a lock. You can spend almost 100% of your time in cover until you run out of ammo. It's not the best mech, but it is the easiest. Just keep in mind that a catapult isn't very tanky for a heavy and you have an IS XL engine, so your goal is to not get shot at and just hide until you're out of ammo. Then try to squeeze another kill out of the medium lasers. But even if you don't by then you're basically guaranteed a skill raise anyway. I'd say out of my LOSSES this thing gets me an = 20% of the time and a skill gain 55% of the time. And that's only counting losses. Of course there's the occasional game where some awesome will triple PPC you in the LT from across the map before you leave the spawn, but to paraphrase Fight Club, "On a long enough timeline the win rate for an LRM boat rises to 85%"

Skill wise get the target decay nodes and the seismic sensor nodes from sensors (seismic sensors because lights love to sneak up behind LRM boats) and all the missile related nodes from firepower, especially the ammo ones. All the velocity nodes too. Then it's just whatever.



To explain my advice; the #1 problem of LRMs is losing lock and not getting surprise buttsecks from a 8 MG Piranha who will crit all your weapons before you even know what happened. Target decay lets you keep lock 3.5 seconds after a target enters cover. Assuming you actually watch radar, seismic will give you forewarning about the impending piranha violation and let you get your team to rid you of him. Velocity let's your missiles get there faster, which means less chance to lose lock. Stuff like missile spread is just a bonus that makes you slightly more likely for a hit to be a kill. The main thing as a solo is just to hit at all. If you can consistently hit you'll get top damage just about always. Not usually top kills, but that's for later. Even on a loss with no kills it's basically impossible to lose skill on an 800 damage game. Nothing will help you hit t1 like consistent, reliable damage, and nothing has reliably high damage like a lurm boat.

Again, I'm not saying it's the best thing to drive, just the thing that let's you hit tier 1 without knowing what you're doing. When you know how to play better I'm sure you'll want to switch, but for a total beginner it's the closest thing to foolproof that the game offers.

Edited by Tie Dyed Ninja, 28 October 2021 - 08:02 PM.

[ScrapIron Prime]

It’ll post up damage all right, but it won’t help you learn the finer points of where [not] to stand and how to maneuver.

But of advice on LRMs… just because the weapon has a max range of over 900 meters does NOT mean you want to fight at that range. The missiles have plenty of time to lose lock and go unguided, and your target has a day and a half to seek cover… which he will get easily with 3 to 5 nodes on radar deprivation in the sensor skill tree.

Instead, try to fight up with the team at 300 to 500 meters. You get locks quickly if in direct line of sight and by scoring with your lasers, and the shorter flight time means less time for the enemy to get hard cover. Plus, while this means more reds shooting at you when you’re up with your team, it also means less piranhas and fleas in your shorts because you’re not alone.

[Tie Dyed Ninja]

ScrapIron Prime, on 28 October 2021 - 08:09 PM, said:

It’ll post up damage all right, but it won’t help you learn the finer points of where [not] to stand and how to maneuver.

I specifically said it won't. It's the most reliable way for a total 0 skill beginner to make money, rank up, and not get rolled. I think it's an absolute inevitability that you'll do better in something else as you get better at the game. But there's been some dude crying in chat for days and blaming teammates and being toxic because he's stuck in t5. I'm just offering people like that a way to advance while they learn instead of feeling stuck and quitting. This is just meant as a beginner crutch, not something to stay with long term. I don't expect someone on game 12 of cadet bonus to know how to gauss poptart or laser boat peek or whatever the current meta is. But anyone can use this and get a decent score until they figure out a better way. Again, it's not the best thing, not even close, it's just the idiotproof thing. I really suck now compared to back in the day, but if this is the only mech I drove I'd be back to tier 1 in a week. I'm not doing that. But the point is that I COULD.

Edited by Tie Dyed Ninja, 28 October 2021 - 08:33 PM.

[ScrapIron Prime]

True, and my observation is meant to help them use it more effectively. Kitting out a mech with a new loadout and an expensive XL engine is a significant expense for a cadet, and if they keep getting owned because they’re horizon bombing on their own they’re going to get discouraged.

[Tie Dyed Ninja]

ScrapIron Prime, on 28 October 2021 - 08:32 PM, said:

True, and my observation is meant to help them use it more effectively. Kitting out a mech with a new loadout and an expensive XL engine is a significant expense for a cadet, and if they keep getting owned because they’re horizon bombing on their own they’re going to get discouraged.

Nothing is really a significant expense for a cadet IMO. I built out a crab, this mech, and a Fafnir with dual 1 mil cbill heavy gauss a couple of games before my cadet bonus ended. and that's considering I made 2 fairly expensive screw ups I had to redesign for. A day one newbro can build this catapult in a couple of hours.. You get what like 5 mill + just for finishing the tutorial, and then a mil plus the actual match pay for the next few games. It's not exactly financially crippling IMO. And like I said you can ride this thing all the way to tier 1 on nothing but a minimal amount of situational awareness. I wouldn't give newbies advice I didn't think was economically responsible.

I'm still in in tier 5 because I insist on leaning 100 ton assaults. I spent beta getting a 3.6 K/D in the first Jenner I ever bought. After they set a speed limit and made Jenners the size of mediums I switched it up to mediums and fast heavies. I could just kill ***** on this catapult or rebuild my old mech bay and spam UAV's and just coast on muscle memory. I'm not, but I could. I'm just trying to tell people who feel stuck a way out of it, so that hopefully they'll stick around. God knows this game could use more people. A guy two days ago lost his $h!t because there were two cadets in the game. I didn't have the heart to tell him I'm basically an accidental smurf.

Edited by Tie Dyed Ninja, 28 October 2021 - 09:00 PM.

[ScrapIron Prime]

You’re not riding an XL side torso, over jump jetted catapult to tier 1, not without paying attention to maneuvering. Being isolated and at long range is a great way to lose locks and get swarmed. And a new player who endures too much of that will be less likely to ride it out.

plus, may I humbly suggest a slightly different build that accomplishes the same thing with a bit better accuracy and durability. https://mwo.nav-alph...7dd3c3b_CPLT-C4

[justcallme A S H]

Lots of pretty bad advice for new players here.

So I'll clarify below

LRMs Mechanic
LRMs have had their mechanic changed such that they work better when NOT in cover. This never used to be the case but has been for the last 2-3 years. Players should actively try to attain their own locks as.

• You attain locks faster
  
• Missile trajectory is flatter and much faster to the target
  
• It forms good gameplay habits.

The Build
The build is not very good. XL and Ammo in the torsos means CASE is completely useless. Also JJs have been revised in recent patched. This build - cplt-c4 - which is far better because

• It is faster.
  
• Beagle which is important as sensor range is tied to lock speed when not in LoS and also ECM detection helps.
  
• Properly crit padding the JJs so they wont be crit out.
  
• 0.5T in torso which will be used first so no issue with ammo explosions and XL engine death as a result
  
• Has enough Jump Jets to fly in the air while sending missiles. Most new players forget to use JJs though so this is some learned behaviour over time.

If any new players want more information post up and I am happy to clarify. I would say however that as this mech is Inner Sphere XL that is is very much not newbie friendly and overall should probably be dumped for something else.

Oh and on no map do tri-HPPCs hit you spawn-to-spawn, or even in the first 30s of a match, and kill you.

Complete impossibility within MWO.

[Tie Dyed Ninja]

ScrapIron Prime, on 28 October 2021 - 08:57 PM, said:

You’re not riding an XL side torso, over jump jetted catapult to tier 1, not without paying attention to maneuvering. Being isolated and at long range is a great way to lose locks and get swarmed. And a new player who endures too much of that will be less likely to ride it out.

plus, may I humbly suggest a slightly different build that accomplishes the same thing with a bit better accuracy and durability. https://mwo.nav-alph...7dd3c3b_CPLT-C4

I did mention rudimentary situational awareness, which is more or less what you're bringing up. How much money do you want to put on this? I don't think a gift wager is against the rules. Correct me if I'm wrong. But I'll be happy to prove I can be back in t1 in under a week driving nothing but that catapult if there's something in it for me. You think a hero Atlas is fair?

PS: There's no such thing as an over jump jetted catapult. You already have 2 LRM 20. There's no LRM 30 you can trade for the jump jets. Your missiles either clear cover and hit something or they don't. Again, do you want to back this up? Because I've been doing this since MWO has existed and free stuff is free stuff. Let's bet a hero Atlas. Well, at least for you. You win I buy you a Kraken. I win you buy me a K-9 trash can because I need that siren in my life. You game? I'll screen shot my stats today and every day until I get my urbie. I've never said anything in my whole life where I wasn't willing to back it up.

Edited by Tie Dyed Ninja, 28 October 2021 - 09:25 PM.

[ScrapIron Prime]

I’m sorry if you think I have something to prove. I don’t, I’m trying to be helpful.

and if you’ve “been doing this since MWO existed”, then why a demonstrated lack of build knowledge, sub par advice, and a thread asking how to maneuver a slow mech? I don’t mind the rest, but advertising poor advice to new players (rare as they are) is a disservice and the reason I stepped in.

As to rising to tier 1 in a week in that catapult, I think you’ll find it will get you to Tier 3 fairly quickly and the last two will take much longer assuming you don’t stall out like you’ve been doing in assault mechs (per the other thread).

[D U N E]

As a note, don't give people low skill builds to bypass the tier system. Tier 5 is the lowest skill area, and it's good that it be a place low skill players are stuck in. Going up in tiers only makes players better, which means you also need to be a better player to compete.

I have seen quite a few players get stuck in a crutch cycle back when ATMs were pretty powerful. Tier systems are here for helping balance skill, they are not here for players to fill and grind, and public perception really needs to stop seeing them like XP bars.

[martian]

Tie Dyed Ninja, on 28 October 2021 - 05:38 PM, said:

Someone asked in another thread, but of course it's locked because MWO forum. So I decided to make a new thread because I still think it can benefit newbies who might happen to read this. Here's the first mech I made when I came back to the game on my new account. I'm years out of practice, but it's still not uncommon for me to get 600 to 1000 damage and 2 or 3 kills in this thing. And it takes almost no skill. It's basically just stay behind (but close to) your team and click buttons when you get a lock. You can spend almost 100% of your time in cover until you run out of ammo. It's not the best mech, but it is the easiest. Just keep in mind that a catapult isn't very tanky for a heavy and you have an IS XL engine, so your goal is to not get shot at and just hide until you're out of ammo. Then try to squeeze another kill out of the medium lasers. But even if you don't by then you're basically guaranteed a skill raise anyway. I'd say out of my LOSSES this thing gets me an = 20% of the time and a skill gain 55% of the time. And that's only counting losses. Of course there's the occasional game where some awesome will triple PPC you in the LT from across the map before you leave the spawn, but to paraphrase Fight Club, "On a long enough timeline the win rate for an LRM boat rises to 85%"

Skill wise get the target decay nodes and the seismic sensor nodes from sensors (seismic sensors because lights love to sneak up behind LRM boats) and all the missile related nodes from firepower, especially the ammo ones. All the velocity nodes too. Then it's just whatever.



To explain my advice; the #1 problem of LRMs is losing lock and not getting surprise buttsecks from a 8 MG Piranha who will crit all your weapons before you even know what happened. Target decay lets you keep lock 3.5 seconds after a target enters cover. Assuming you actually watch radar, seismic will give you forewarning about the impending piranha violation and let you get your team to rid you of him. Velocity let's your missiles get there faster, which means less chance to lose lock. Stuff like missile spread is just a bonus that makes you slightly more likely for a hit to be a kill. The main thing as a solo is just to hit at all. If you can consistently hit you'll get top damage just about always. Not usually top kills, but that's for later. Even on a loss with no kills it's basically impossible to lose skill on an 800 damage game. Nothing will help you hit t1 like consistent, reliable damage, and nothing has reliably high damage like a lurm boat.

Again, I'm not saying it's the best thing to drive, just the thing that let's you hit tier 1 without knowing what you're doing. When you know how to play better I'm sure you'll want to switch, but for a total beginner it's the closest thing to foolproof that the game offers.

My personal opinion that your Catapult is not the best thing for a newbie.

First, it creates some bad habits in a newbie. For example, it does actually not teach him to aim. With those LRMs, it teaches him just that pointing in the general direction of enemy is enough. Well, in my opinion, it is not.

It teaches newbies to passivity: "so your goal is to not get shot at and just hide until you're out of ammo". If something, 'Mech should teach newbies how to aim and how to maneuver on the battlefield.

The second thing is your "the impending piranha violation and let you get your team to rid you of him." It is nobody else's obligation to save your ***. It is "your" job foremost that you should take care about your 'Mech.

As Tier 1 player I have some doubts that this LRM Catapult is "just the thing that let's you hit tier 1 without knowing what you're doing".

Almost forgot: CASE on your build is not neccessary. In case of internal ammo explosion, your Lurmboat would die to XL engine kill anyway.

Tie Dyed Ninja, on 28 October 2021 - 08:40 PM, said:

I spent beta getting a 3.6 K/D in the first Jenner I ever bought.

That is just a history. The current MWO gameplay is different.

[Gagis]

This loadout is fragile and undergunned for a heavy, lacks TAG or Beagle and would most likely just either frustrate newbros or teach them to waste time hiding and waiting for locks. Not good advice.

Contrast this with Orion that can do 4LRM20 without jump jets or Trebuchet that can do 2LRM15 with jump jets and some of the greatest quirks in the game.

Edited by Gagis, 28 October 2021 - 11:50 PM.

[pattonesque]

I mean I think if you're gonna post a new player friendly mech you should probably win more games than you lose

[ScrapIron Prime]

Tie Dyed Ninja, on 28 October 2021 - 09:45 PM, said:

Yet you're not willing to back it up and I am. Let me know when you stop fearing me and then I'll care about your opinion again.

I'm not the one posting with an Alt account to hide my identity.

[Duke Falcon]

Catapults for newbies? Nononono!
As a newbie I have troubles with LRMs because of range\AMS\ECM\skill stuffs convergence (or lack of). Lasers and ACs are better because oftentimes you MUST fire LRMs with direct LOS without lock what needs aiming. If you want to encourage newbies to stay, hide and lurm not forget to tell them: get into ~600m range or closer otherwise half or more of your missiles would be a futile waste of time (mean: NO DAMAGE AT ALL!).
I have many clan lurmers able to lurm well over 1000 (1100) metres but useless. Only good in FP defense position to bother the enemy untill close up because in FP players rarely use AMS. Force them to take cover make them slightly slower but that is all what a more than 600m lurming may cause.
If lurming would be king of no-skill cadets I would be a T1 myself. Another question is that I not wish to leave T5 at all (sadly it happened two times, but a few "idiotically played matches" helps to return the safe and funny T5 playground). And sometimes even as a T5 one may meet T3-2-1 players whom eat such lurmer builds alive from kilometres like a light breakfast.
So, my 2 cents as a newbie friendly mech is a Hellbringer no matter the exact loadout (in T5-4). My first mech were a King crab and caused me much headache untill learned to handle such a big beast.
Newbies, I hereby recommend you the Hellbringer! Now, that is official...

[CFC Conky]

@OP,

I'm not a very good player, moving back and forth between T4/T3, but I do have a couple of observations.

First, you say your build requires no skill, so how will it really help a new player? This game requires skill and the sooner a new player acquires some, the better. Being able to climb in Tier with a 'no skill' build isn't all that useful to a new player imo, unless Lurming is their thing. Farming damage for c-bills/match score, sure.

Second, you are currently in T5 and claim you can get up to T1 in a week in that Catapult of yours. Being that I don't know you, I have no reason to doubt your claim, so you are obviously an experienced player. I've started a few alt accounts and even I can club seals with LRMs and do well in T5 because I've been playing this game for over four years, not because I'm a highly skilled player.

I'm not very effective with LRMs, but I do have a few LRM builds I use for specific event challenges, so for me your Catapult build, with a few of the adjustments mentioned in other posts would be useful for a LRM challenge, but not much else, at least for me.

It sure as heck won't get me to T1.

Good hunting,
CFC Conky

Edited by CFC Conky, 31 October 2021 - 09:31 AM.

[martian]

Duke Falcon, on 29 October 2021 - 08:13 AM, said:

...
So, my 2 cents as a newbie friendly mech is a Hellbringer no matter the exact loadout (in T5-4). My first mech were a King crab and caused me much headache untill learned to handle such a big beast.
Newbies, I hereby recommend you the Hellbringer! Now, that is official...

The great advantage of Clan OmniMechs is that a novice player can modify their loadout (missile boat ⟶ laser boat ⟶ AC boat) without having to buy entirely new 'Mech.

[Dozer6]

I'm returning after a year off. Had a war to fight in Eve online.

I am going to agree with scrapiron on all counts. Personally i found the Archer a much better lrm med lsr platform for my playstyle. I stay with my team and take my shots and play close support, and NEVER depend on my team to take out the lights as i will always engage them myself.
I have found proper positioning for the archer is with my team, but i will position in optimal firing spots to put damage from above on specific targets then get back with the gang.

I absolutely don't recommend backline camping for newbro's, it gave me bad habits to break and they will develop them also.

[panzer1b]

There is one and ONLY one mech that i would truly reccomend to genuine beginners, the imberwolf especially in the current state of the game (hellbringer would have been my choice had they not released ECM pod on the timby).

Basically it can run some top tier builds (2LPL+6ERML is the most popular vomit choice that i see on the field), and its not really limited to just that being omni which allows it to run everything to some extent, dakka, ppcs, lrms, atms, srms, lasers of every type, gauss vomit, ect, all at least in a useable fashion even if not meta or ideal for the role.

The other reason i picked this over the hellbringer is that its actually useable as a brawler with its ok hitboxes now that it can actually shield with the boosted agility. If you dont want to brawl, i still stand by my choice of the hellbringer as the superior mid-long ranged mech entirely because of its high mounted weapons which require minimal exposure on hillhumping.

So yeah, it has ECM to keep you from being the primary target (dont let people tell you it doesnt make a difference, as it does even at T1 when combined with radar derp), its fast enough that you wont get left behind, it has the hardpoints to run eveything and it can actua;lly take some hits so exposing and getting shot isnt automatically your end. It can also run a rather solid LRM setup if thats your cup of tea (not that im suggesting as lerms just suck when you get out of low tiers and they dont really teach you much besides lerm specific positioning)...

[VikingN1nja]

I'd +1 the hellbringer with lasers and ecm. It will also teach you manager heat, only downside no JJ's.
The summoner is similar with jump jets, but no ecm.

I haven't used the HB all that much until recently, and it's very good. It was about the time when i took a long break when that mech was being used.

The phoenix hawk is also good as a medium. Actually, the hunter pack has the PH and Stalker 7D, two decent mechs. Stalker was my first assault, I'll blame Macks's corner for that one. The 7D is also possibly the best Stalker.

I'd run MRM's on that catapult, LRMS's never feel right to me.

Edited by NinjaViking, 18 December 2021 - 11:18 AM.