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#1 ScrapIron Prime

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Posted 27 January 2022 - 10:59 AM

(In order to stop another fun thread from being locked in General Discussion... let's start one here.)


So... the city of San Jose just did a thing. adopting a measure to tax and require insurance on firearms, the first US municipality to do so.

https://www.reuters....nce-2022-01-26/

I'm going to strike a neutral but interested tone here. This thing should go to court by the end of the year (plus probably appeals for years after that), and the case will be... interesting.

As I've pointed out, on the one hand you have the "shall not infringe" clause in the 2nd amendment, while on the other hand you have similar language in the 5th and 14th amendments that have, over time, determined that requiring taxes and/or insurance on something does not constitute an "infringement".

... Insert strongly held opinions below. Posted Image

#2 LordNothing

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Posted 27 January 2022 - 04:03 PM

what exactly does such insurance cover? legal fees when you accidentally shoot someone? is this tax a one time thing, or do you have to pay it as long as you own a firearm?

i suspect its just another governmental overreach. no doubt with some lobbying from insurance companies that usually proceeds any legally mandated insurance. if they expect these laws to stop loonies from conducting mass shootings, its not going to do that. all its going to do is piss off law abiding gun owners and make uncle sam/the lizzard a wad of cash. no doubt to pay for more overreach and more lobbying.

#3 YueFei

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Posted 27 January 2022 - 07:09 PM

View PostScrapIron Prime, on 27 January 2022 - 10:59 AM, said:

As I've pointed out, on the one hand you have the "shall not infringe" clause in the 2nd amendment, while on the other hand you have similar language in the 5th and 14th amendments that have, over time, determined that requiring taxes and/or insurance on something does not constitute an "infringement".


Well, that's an interesting line of argument. I would raise the point that, at least for cars, you don't need insurance if you're just going to drive it on private roads.

I'm also ideologically opposed to property taxes on property that you are not deriving income from (such as property tax on your primary residence when you're not running any kind of business from it), but I know that legal precedent on that is quite clear. It's just that it seems wrong on principle, because if I'm just living in a house I own and not running a business out of it, I'm not making any money from it, and yet the government is able to tax me on it every year, then it's like I don't actually own it, it's more like I'm just renting it from the government. As I said, I know that the law is very clear on this and takes a completely different interpretation, but I don't always go for purely legalistic arguments (slavery, after all, was once legal). Just explaining my philosophy on this.

Generally I'm leery of the government levying what amounts to a tax on the exercise of a right, as has been attempted before with Voting Poll Taxes. Although most people could afford those Voting Poll Taxes, it effectively disenfranchised poor people, or was selectively waived for poor whites and selected enforced only against poor blacks.

So, it's on a similar basis that I oppose this San Jose regulation. Besides the core principle disagreement with these regulations, I also think that the enforcement mechanisms and logistics of it seem fairly weak. When laws were passed elsewhere requiring firearms registration, compliance rates were quite low (approx 20%). So I don't think this will raise as much money as they estimate it will.

More "bang for your buck" regulations would instead target Domestic Violence and have better implementation of "Red Flag" laws. However, there's a lot of pressure from Police and DAs to not take DV more seriously, as in a DV conviction results in being barred from firearm ownership. This is because in some Police Departments, >40% of their roster has committed DV (in other words, they beat their spouses). If we took DV more seriously, some PDs would have to fire 40% of their force!

Current "Red Flag" implementations are also flawed, but the concept could work. The problem currently is that the implementation violates Due Process. Someone makes a report that they think you're a danger, and the police come and confiscate your firearms... sometimes using "dynamic entry" to make it happen, making it all the more dangerous for all parties involved (including the cops), because too many cops are itching to cosplay as "Operators".

Even if nothing goes violently wrong, this violates Due Process because you're being deprived of the implements for the exercise of an enumerated Right without having had your day in court, trial by a jury of your peers, etc.

A better implementation would be to do the sensible (but less exciting) thing of just picking up the guy on his way to work. Get all your ducks in a row, have a jury ready, etc., then pick the guy up, go to jail, get your (in theory Constitutionally-guaranteed) speedy trial, and then if guilty you have your firearms confiscated and go to prison. If found innocent or not-guilty, you go free.

#4 Davegt27

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Posted 28 January 2022 - 09:28 AM

I heard they have the same type of laws planed for CO

2 thoughts

1) anytime your copying crazy CA your in big trouble

2) I am more worried about sleepy what's his face staring WW3

bonus thought
criminals are the problem I don't think turning everyone into a criminal is a good idea

Edited by Davegt27, 28 January 2022 - 09:28 AM.


#5 YueFei

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Posted 29 January 2022 - 12:18 AM

View PostDavegt27, on 28 January 2022 - 09:28 AM, said:

I heard they have the same type of laws planed for CO

2 thoughts

1) anytime your copying crazy CA your in big trouble

2) I am more worried about sleepy what's his face staring WW3

bonus thought
criminals are the problem I don't think turning everyone into a criminal is a good idea


1.) This isn't true. Although I'm well aware of CA's many mistakes (in particular when it comes to the power grid and green energy... our irrational fear of nuclear power is self-defeating), there are also some things CA gets right. In particular, there's a reason we are such an agricultural powerhouse, and it's not exclusively because of the climate and soil. We do lack in terms of water, but compensated for that (although that's becoming a problem now). The American South has similar climate and soil and plentiful water... but it lacks the skilled service network that CA has. In CA, farmers are more like general contractors that will pay specialized companies for various services. They'll pay someone $100 to plant a $10 tree. This is something that other States should be trying to emulate. Some CA farmers move to the South thinking it'll be great, but within a few years they end up coming back to CA once they find that the network of services they're accustomed to doesn't exist over there. It's cool to be a jack of all trades, master of none, but there's a damn good reason the human species specializes as much as we do.

2.) In what way are you worried that we're going to trigger WW3? The US has explicitly indicated we will not put US troops in Ukraine to defend it. The calculus here is that if we did put them there, the risk of American blood being shed might pressure US leaders to escalate the conflict, and from there it could easily spiral out of control as both sides climb the escalation ladder. At the moment all we're doing is providing weapons to Ukraine, trying to turn it into a prickly hedgehog too unappetizing for Russia to try to swallow. Risk of escalation is thus rather low. I'm afraid you're rather misinformed on this.

#6 LordNothing

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Posted 29 January 2022 - 07:43 PM

wwiii really doesnt concern me. the current administration and the powers that be in russia/ukraine would draw the us into another conventional proxy war at worst. in both the korean and vietnam wars we started with sending in "advisors", and it wasn't long until we were fighting their war for them. msm is mostly fluffing up "their guy" with their usual sensationalism. neither this nor the previous administration has been very good at military matters and id rather not get into another war under either's leadership (especially in lieu of a post pandemic recovery).

convincing hordes of voters to increase their standards seems impossible. so long as both parties remain unwilling to call out their loonies, were going to get more of this. loonies are the only thing this world has in abundance these days and spreading propaganda is extremely easy in the digital age. all you need is a twitter account and joseph goebbel's propaganda manual.

Edited by LordNothing, 29 January 2022 - 07:47 PM.


#7 Davegt27

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Posted 29 January 2022 - 09:54 PM

the USA has been around for over 200 years with out insurance for guns

requiring insurance on guns would be treading on Constitutional thin ice
and a lot of people will see it as another under handed ploy to eliminate guns

My state just picked up CAs over reaching and bizarre emission laws
my self as long as the emissions coming from the tail pipe of your car are within limits I don't care
what you have under the hood of your car

I recently started a new play list about homelessness since it looks like we will be copying CA yet again

https://www.youtube....kpGMxnmqOsMsygX

more on CA's policies




another series I was watching last week about the cold war

Cuban missile crisis and how we promised those satellite nations next to Russia would not join NATO

https://www.youtube....5pZPYCk9Zw0dGke

HTHs

#8 YueFei

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Posted 30 January 2022 - 10:54 AM

View PostDavegt27, on 29 January 2022 - 09:54 PM, said:

the USA has been around for over 200 years with out insurance for guns

requiring insurance on guns would be treading on Constitutional thin ice
and a lot of people will see it as another under handed ploy to eliminate guns

My state just picked up CAs over reaching and bizarre emission laws
my self as long as the emissions coming from the tail pipe of your car are within limits I don't care
what you have under the hood of your car

I recently started a new play list about homelessness since it looks like we will be copying CA yet again

https://www.youtube....kpGMxnmqOsMsygX

more on CA's policies




another series I was watching last week about the cold war

Cuban missile crisis and how we promised those satellite nations next to Russia would not join NATO

https://www.youtube....5pZPYCk9Zw0dGke

HTHs


Davegt27, I would suggest you not to get your news from YouTube channels. Those serve to draw in viewers through outrage-baiting and fear mongering, rather than seeking to truly inform you.

For example, I've seen some news channels and articles blaming CA policies for the train thefts in LA. Except that the local government and State government have no jurisdiction over these rail switching junctions, because these trains cross State lines and hence fall under Federal jurisdiction. Historically, when local municipalities tried to impose their own regulations or screw with these trains or rail lines, the literally Army has shown up to tell them that they ain't the boss of that. At the Federal level, we have dedicated Rail Police (just as we have dedicated USPS Police), but these guys don't act as deterrent/enforcement by providing security for the trains, they act as detectives, and a rail yard might see 1 Rail cop in an entire month. So no, the problem with the train thefts has nothing to do with local policies or local law enforcement.

Nah, the problem we're seeing is due to Union Pacific laying off over 80% of their security guards. It is apparently cheaper to just eat the loss and have insurance paying out.

Edited by YueFei, 30 January 2022 - 10:55 AM.


#9 YueFei

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Posted 30 January 2022 - 11:39 AM

View PostLordNothing, on 29 January 2022 - 07:43 PM, said:

wwiii really doesnt concern me. the current administration and the powers that be in russia/ukraine would draw the us into another conventional proxy war at worst. in both the korean and vietnam wars we started with sending in "advisors", and it wasn't long until we were fighting their war for them. msm is mostly fluffing up "their guy" with their usual sensationalism. neither this nor the previous administration has been very good at military matters and id rather not get into another war under either's leadership (especially in lieu of a post pandemic recovery).

convincing hordes of voters to increase their standards seems impossible. so long as both parties remain unwilling to call out their loonies, were going to get more of this. loonies are the only thing this world has in abundance these days and spreading propaganda is extremely easy in the digital age. all you need is a twitter account and joseph goebbel's propaganda manual.


Yeah, this is a concerning problem, particularly with the rise of Cable News and the Internet. Before, the limited available frequencies for over-the-air broadcast led to the Fairness Doctrine, which made some sense in its time and place, what with limited channels and time shared by a multitude of voices. Now those days are long gone and I believe it is correct that the Fairness Doctrine should not exist anymore. But that means that now, the most extreme voices can find ways to reach millions, rather than just the crowd on their street corner, and due to the way the human mind tends to work (confirmation bias), people tend to seek news that reinforces their views and biases, and the various social media algorithms also push more and more of the same kind of news to suit each person's tastes.

But to me, the solution is not censorship, the real solution is to better educate people on how to cope with this. Teach people how to be better consumers of the information that they find. Teach people how to use logic to make sense of contradictory pieces of information.

For example, when some people were saying COVID was a hoax or that it was really no big deal and no worse than the flu? Easy to deflate that argument by simply looking at how the US military was taking it very seriously, and that's a demographic of younger, healthier, and more fit individuals. If it were no big deal, the US military wouldn't have cared.

People need to look at a larger collection of information and not just uncritically accept a handful of sources' info, and use that to be better informed. Make broader consultation before coming to conclusions.

Attempting to censor "fake news" is just infantilizing the body of citizens (treating them like kids who don't know what's best for them), and doesn't solve the core problem, which is the fact that people are gullible enough to fall for this crap. As long as people are gullible enough, if you give the government (or private enterprise with effectively a monopoly) the power to censor these things, you're creating an environment ripe for propaganda.

#10 LordNothing

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Posted 30 January 2022 - 06:41 PM

View PostYueFei, on 30 January 2022 - 10:54 AM, said:


Davegt27, I would suggest you not to get your news from YouTube channels. Those serve to draw in viewers through outrage-baiting and fear mongering, rather than seeking to truly inform you.

For example, I've seen some news channels and articles blaming CA policies for the train thefts in LA. Except that the local government and State government have no jurisdiction over these rail switching junctions, because these trains cross State lines and hence fall under Federal jurisdiction. Historically, when local municipalities tried to impose their own regulations or screw with these trains or rail lines, the literally Army has shown up to tell them that they ain't the boss of that. At the Federal level, we have dedicated Rail Police (just as we have dedicated USPS Police), but these guys don't act as deterrent/enforcement by providing security for the trains, they act as detectives, and a rail yard might see 1 Rail cop in an entire month. So no, the problem with the train thefts has nothing to do with local policies or local law enforcement.

Nah, the problem we're seeing is due to Union Pacific laying off over 80% of their security guards. It is apparently cheaper to just eat the loss and have insurance paying out.


stossel is a libertarian, so not really msm. he has an old school devils advocate interviewing style, and is willing to interview people with wildly different views than his own and even tries to understand their point of view. there are worse sources for your news (like all the big name cable news channels).

Edited by LordNothing, 30 January 2022 - 06:45 PM.


#11 Kalimaster

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Posted 02 February 2022 - 11:54 AM

I don't think that having to have insurance on a firearm is a good idea in the long run.

The idea is to reduce gun violence, which calls for education and responsibility. When I was younger it was considered a good idea to have a gun saftey course, which I did take. Yes I saw a couple of very badly damaged guns that was caused by mishandling. If you want to overcome gun violence, you have to overcome the mindset of Hollywood-gang-film and rap videos.

A gun is a tool, and while not everyone needs to have an assult rifle, they are fine for some situation. Part of the problem is also marketing. Yes you and by an AR-15, but when you go into a gun store and everything on the wall is a military styled weapon, this is another step on the problem of guns? If you want a single shot bolt action that has good range with dreams of a 8-point buck for the wall, you are going to buy a gun thats available. If you only have military styled guns for sale, that's all that will be sold.

Then there is just a breakdown of society standards, or a lowering of standards. Combined with let everyone out of jail. When you combine all of these factors, and refuse to have consequences for bad behavior starting with decipline of young children you get larger problems, more violence, and more abuse and it's a visious cycle that it's difficult to stop.

Guns are already taxed, and can be expensive. You want guns, that's fine. Just be responsible. Because there may be a day come when you might want to have one on hand, say at three minites after midnight.

#12 ScrapIron Prime

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Posted 03 February 2022 - 09:37 AM

View PostKalimaster, on 02 February 2022 - 11:54 AM, said:

If you want to overcome gun violence, you have to overcome the mindset of Hollywood-gang-film and rap videos.


That's pretty close to a "blame the other side" argument. I doubt, for example, that an organization such as the Oath Keepers is much influenced by rap music.

A sensible gun law has to take everyone into account. And a strict law penalizing people helps keep people from being idiots. Because that IS a trend in the United States... requirements for licensing and permits are going down in many places... reducing the amount of training required to carry or even eliminating it entirely.

And that creates a significant issue on its own. Handing out carry permits to people who might not know how to clear a round or clean the weapon will result in more accidental discharges. And reducing training will increase the number of times a firearm is drawn even if it is not an appropriate response to the situation.

And... insisting on training from qualified instructors will increase the amount of time that folks wanting a firearm need to spend around said instructors. If you make those instructors active members of law enforcement and... well what criminal is going to want to spend 20 hours in a course or 4 hours in a refresher with a deputy? Didn't attend the training? No carry permit for you.

And to that end, there is a valid use for insurance as a control. Penalizing people for not having training or not properly securing a firearm will prevent unintended casualties. For example, a person might not believe in the need for a trigger lock or lock box, but requiring something to receive a big break on insurance rates will decidedly cut down on the number of four year olds who find a gun and accidentally kill themselves.

#13 YueFei

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Posted 03 February 2022 - 11:53 PM

View PostLordNothing, on 30 January 2022 - 06:41 PM, said:


stossel is a libertarian, so not really msm. he has an old school devils advocate interviewing style, and is willing to interview people with wildly different views than his own and even tries to understand their point of view. there are worse sources for your news (like all the big name cable news channels).


I wouldn't recommend people get their news from MSM, either.

The MSM is there to make money, and rage-baiting and outrage-baiting, fear-mongering, etc., does that. It grabs people and keeps them engaged. The difference in various MSM outlets is what things they tell people to be afraid of or angry at.

It's better to grab information from various reports, scientific journals, and statistical data. Look at data from various countries. It's important to understand the p-values of statistical data. No, I don't remember how to calculate a standard deviation. But the main thing is that it's important to understand what it means. I remember early in the COVID pandemic, a coworker sharing a study that showed some particular drug was super effective against COVID (like in May of 2020), so we should drop all restrictions and get back to normal. Except that this study had a sample size of like 15 people, and a p-value of like 0.6 or something. Later as it turned out, once a study with a larger sample size was done, it turned out to be ineffective.

The problem is that we teach science as if it was a series of facts discovered by miraculously ingenious people, as opposed to teaching science a method of inquiry.

Edited by YueFei, 03 February 2022 - 11:53 PM.


#14 ScrapIron Prime

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Posted 04 February 2022 - 06:56 AM

View PostYueFei, on 03 February 2022 - 11:53 PM, said:

The problem is that we teach science as if it was a series of facts discovered by miraculously ingenious people, as opposed to teaching science a method of inquiry.


Very good point.

And another pitfall we face today is that a lot of people will "research" something by watching videos or hitting websites that agree with what they already believe. If someone only exposes themselves to people and ideas that just tell them what they want to hear, they're headed down a path of delusion, not research.

#15 LordNothing

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Posted 04 February 2022 - 05:05 PM

View PostYueFei, on 03 February 2022 - 11:53 PM, said:


I wouldn't recommend people get their news from MSM, either.

The MSM is there to make money, and rage-baiting and outrage-baiting, fear-mongering, etc., does that. It grabs people and keeps them engaged. The difference in various MSM outlets is what things they tell people to be afraid of or angry at.

It's better to grab information from various reports, scientific journals, and statistical data. Look at data from various countries. It's important to understand the p-values of statistical data. No, I don't remember how to calculate a standard deviation. But the main thing is that it's important to understand what it means. I remember early in the COVID pandemic, a coworker sharing a study that showed some particular drug was super effective against COVID (like in May of 2020), so we should drop all restrictions and get back to normal. Except that this study had a sample size of like 15 people, and a p-value of like 0.6 or something. Later as it turned out, once a study with a larger sample size was done, it turned out to be ineffective.

The problem is that we teach science as if it was a series of facts discovered by miraculously ingenious people, as opposed to teaching science a method of inquiry.


i know i caught the msm misrepresenting the data at least once, using basic gradeschool math. if the "facts" fall apart with even the most casual of analysis, its not news its propaganda.





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