20 replies to this topic

[Tudes]

Hey yall,

I've been ducking in and out from mwo for a long time now. Honestly, RTS and 4x strategy games are more my thing, but mwo is where I go when I need a FPS fix. I've almost always been solo, and I usually step away from the game when the Quick Play destruction derbys get tiresome. I want to play in games that have some impact beyond the single match, but Faction Play isn't doing it for me. From reading other forum posts, this is my understanding of the most frustrating part of FP for others:

• FP is mostly only fun for premade groups of players. In addition, the "journeyman" groups of players that assemble still get trounced by the elites.
  
• FP isn't really doable as a solo or small group player, unless players want to wait in a really long queue.
  
• Spawn camping is a viable, dominant mechanic
  
• Maybe most importantly, the collection of players interested in FP is too small- changing anything that would exclude new FP players or anger existing ones would basically kill FP.

The last point seems particularly troublesome to me, because it suggests that mwo (on the whole) needs more players before anything can change in FP. With that in mind, I'd like to propose a (mostly) new format for FP. I'm interested to hear your opinion: I don't pretend to play mwo enough to have my finger on the "pulse" of the community, I didn't think much about lore, and I don't know diddly about the limitations on the PGI/programming side of how this would work.


A number of games have found some success by increasing the size of their multiplayer battles- Foxhole and War Thunder boast about pitting hundreds or thousands of players against each other. Wintergrasp, an old world pvp location in World of Warcraft, had a rolling queue for its hourly battle. If 60 people queued for the Alliance when the battle began, the first 40 got in. When someone left, the next person in line teleported in. What if the FP matches worked more like this?


For simplicity for now, let's consider just a straight-up skirmish game mode. 12-16 players per side begin the match, dropping on opposite ends of the map. Players still use drop decks, so they get 4 "lives." When players run out of mechs, they're removed from the match. When a team has 4 empty spaces, 4 players from the queue are dropped in. The removed players can either get back in line to join the battle or do whatever. The match continues for an hour or so, and at the end, the faction with the most total kills "wins" that instance.

• What about spawn camping? Is it possible to have a number of landing zones around the map? The dropship could calculate the "smartest" place to land, and if the maps don't have a Red Base/Blue Base layout, any safe LZ could make sense.
  
• What about elite deathballs? Maybe some kind of escalating debuff or something for players that have been around a while. I'm thinking of capture-the-flag modes in other games, where the flag carrier moves progressively slower and becomes more squishy.
  
• What happens when the illustrious Clan Ghost Bear is winning by 1,000 kills? An escalating buff for the players on the losing side. I'm imagining little drones like the third-person camera, except they shoot at whatever the player is shooting. More drones as the score difference between teams gets greater.

I really like the idea of jumping into an ongoing match like this, because it feels more meaningful to me than doing the 10-minute smashy-smash of QP. Practically speaking, I think this structure would benefit PGI, as they can court the growing collection of mmo players who want to be involved in "wars" rather than single battles. Like I said, I have no idea what's interesting to the existing FP community, or what's possible from the technical/programming side of things.

Holy crap, the formatting on this turned out terribly. Sorry yall

[Marquis De Lafayette]

They have done pretty much what they could to help with spawn camping the drop ships don’t miss and hurt. Maybe they could make them hurt more, but that’s about it

It’s been a catch-22 for years here in FW. If you get decent/good at FW you make friends that are at least at that level. If you drop with those friends you are likely in what would be considered “an elite” and roll anybody that isn’t similarly grouped. Now, if you limit group size or get rid of groups you eliminate something that really draws people to FW (the ability to drop with friends and coordinate). Thus the catch-22. These days I prefer dropping in mixed skill groups with some newer players mixed in, but even then coordination is OP vs. Pugs.

As much as I hate to say it, FW is really best with a group….it doesn’t need to be the highest skill players, but the ability to coordinate on a drop is what makes this mode what it is. Solos are fine and I have solo’ed plenty …but I know that it’s just likely going to be a mess if I get PUGS and the other side is a group. I accept that risk… There are still units like FJRD and others that take newer players and try give newer to FW players a place to go, play and learn the mode.

[Sjorpha]

It's an interesting game mode idea, but judging by PGIs limited technical capabilities and how they responded to most suggestions requiring anything beyond XML edits in the past I'm almost certain they would say it's impossible.

That being said if it is possible the new event queue would be a good place to test the idea to see if people like it or not.

Spawncamping feels bad, but it's not really a balance problem. You have to be already losing very badly to get spawn camped, and usually the dropships makes your end result better. So spawncamping may be rubbing salt in the wounds when you're being stomped, but it's not a winning strategy that you can abuse to win a match that it otherwise even. Basically improved matchmaking and more players would fix spawncamping, because it's only a problem when you have very imbalanced teams.

I think the best way to bring in (and bring back) players would be to reignite the original vision of Community warfare, make it meaningful for units and factions to fight on the map. Return the agency over conflicts to the players. This mode was always intended as a place for units to have a meaningful endgame, but when they turned their backs on that ambition CW/FW/FP turned into something halfbaked that doesn't really satisfy anyone.

Edited by Sjorpha, 13 June 2022 - 11:23 PM.

[Yondu Udonta]

interesting idea, also some of the Battlefield franchise game modes have been mentioned by others but tldr until pgi wants to commit to fixing and redoing faction play, which i do not foresee happening outside of another license extension, all these ideas are merely castles in the air

[Tudes]

Sjorpha, on 13 June 2022 - 11:21 PM, said:

Basically improved matchmaking and more players would fix spawncamping, because it's only a problem when you have very imbalanced teams.

This is a really good point, and on the whole I think you all are right- there doesn't seem to be a lot of demonstrated interest in improving the FP mode. It's too bad, but I appreciate your thoughts on it!

[IronWolfPack64]

Tudes, on 12 June 2022 - 03:18 PM, said:

Hey yall,

I've been ducking in and out from mwo for a long time now. Honestly, RTS and 4x strategy games are more my thing, but mwo is where I go when I need a FPS fix. I've almost always been solo, and I usually step away from the game when the Quick Play destruction derbys get tiresome. I want to play in games that have some impact beyond the single match, but Faction Play isn't doing it for me. From reading other forum posts, this is my understanding of the most frustrating part of FP for others:

• FP is mostly only fun for premade groups of players. In addition, the "journeyman" groups of players that assemble still get trounced by the elites.
  
• FP isn't really doable as a solo or small group player, unless players want to wait in a really long queue.
  
• Spawn camping is a viable, dominant mechanic
  
• Maybe most importantly, the collection of players interested in FP is too small- changing anything that would exclude new FP players or anger existing ones would basically kill FP.

The last point seems particularly troublesome to me, because it suggests that mwo (on the whole) needs more players before anything can change in FP. With that in mind, I'd like to propose a (mostly) new format for FP. I'm interested to hear your opinion: I don't pretend to play mwo enough to have my finger on the "pulse" of the community, I didn't think much about lore, and I don't know diddly about the limitations on the PGI/programming side of how this would work.


A number of games have found some success by increasing the size of their multiplayer battles- Foxhole and War Thunder boast about pitting hundreds or thousands of players against each other. Wintergrasp, an old world pvp location in World of Warcraft, had a rolling queue for its hourly battle. If 60 people queued for the Alliance when the battle began, the first 40 got in. When someone left, the next person in line teleported in. What if the FP matches worked more like this?


For simplicity for now, let's consider just a straight-up skirmish game mode. 12-16 players per side begin the match, dropping on opposite ends of the map. Players still use drop decks, so they get 4 "lives." When players run out of mechs, they're removed from the match. When a team has 4 empty spaces, 4 players from the queue are dropped in. The removed players can either get back in line to join the battle or do whatever. The match continues for an hour or so, and at the end, the faction with the most total kills "wins" that instance.

• What about spawn camping? Is it possible to have a number of landing zones around the map? The dropship could calculate the "smartest" place to land, and if the maps don't have a Red Base/Blue Base layout, any safe LZ could make sense.
  
• What about elite deathballs? Maybe some kind of escalating debuff or something for players that have been around a while. I'm thinking of capture-the-flag modes in other games, where the flag carrier moves progressively slower and becomes more squishy.
  
• What happens when the illustrious Clan Ghost Bear is winning by 1,000 kills? An escalating buff for the players on the losing side. I'm imagining little drones like the third-person camera, except they shoot at whatever the player is shooting. More drones as the score difference between teams gets greater.

I really like the idea of jumping into an ongoing match like this, because it feels more meaningful to me than doing the 10-minute smashy-smash of QP. Practically speaking, I think this structure would benefit PGI, as they can court the growing collection of mmo players who want to be involved in "wars" rather than single battles. Like I said, I have no idea what's interesting to the existing FP community, or what's possible from the technical/programming side of things.

Holy crap, the formatting on this turned out terribly. Sorry yall

Hey Tudes, if you are serious in your inquiry about fixing faction play please let me know and let’s talk. There are a lot of people around this forum with ideas how to “fix” faction play but many of them are just ghosts who maybe played once but haven’t played in a long long time so they aren’t really serious about fixing faction play or trying to make it better. If you are actually interested in creative solutions and not here to just complain like most others are please let me know and I would love to discuss these things in greater detail. I am the leader of FJRD a very active faction unit and we are all about trying to bring back the game mode. That is our main mission.

[LordNothing]

the only thing i would change is to force civil wars if one side is stacked with 2 or more complete teams while the other cant even field one. this would be evaluated at the drop interval.

[Nightbird]

PGI doesn't devote any resources to FP. The new QP maps aren't being added to the FP rotation even though the only work needed is to copy paste some respawn walls.

[LordNothing]

Nightbird, on 27 June 2022 - 07:23 PM, said:

PGI doesn't devote any resources to FP. The new QP maps aren't being added to the FP rotation even though the only work needed is to copy paste some respawn walls.

those walls were crap anyways. they were meant to prevent spawn campling, but i think they have just reinforced a seige mentality among unskilled teams where they hide behind them and then the other team is forced to spawn camp in order to win. i think it made the problem worse. better off without them.

also with the event queue, i think it might be time to remove qp modes from fp anyway. it can absorb things like decked conquest and scouting and the other qp modes were not that interesting in fp anyway.

Edited by LordNothing, 28 June 2022 - 03:47 PM.

[Black Dreamer]

My quick hotfix: First 3 matches are one drop only from drop deck, the last respawn match is last stand with remaining not destroyed mechs form previous matches (ejected mechs are playable). Example: 1 match taken from scouting-gather points, 3-4 min game, winner gest radar support from icursion for next matches ; 2match : Conquest 4-5min, winner jamming support; 3match Incursion, 5-7min; last respawn match, domination 10 min. That way the main priority is win objective without losing mechs (ejecting ~10s is fine) before showdown. I would like to see R&R only for the winners of 3match before Last Stand (already be here in openbeta days). Teams can capitulate be vote between matches. My point of view first 3 mathes are from current qick play with faction points reward where last match is bonus stage.

[PiVoR]

PGI should just take notes from League of Legends system, 2 queues, solo and flex, solo only for pugs and flex for premades and solo players who wish to fill, also spawns should have turrets that insta kill enemies who come to close.

Done, FP is fixed and people have fun

[IronWolfPack64]

PiVoR, on 27 July 2022 - 01:52 PM, said:

PGI should just take notes from League of Legends system, 2 queues, solo and flex, solo only for pugs and flex for premades and solo players who wish to fill, also spawns should have turrets that insta kill enemies who come to close.

Done, FP is fixed and people have fun

This view is simplistic at best and doesn’t encompass the full extent of problems of faction play. Separate queue could only work if the solo queue was like 6v6 or something because there aren’t enough people. Also, it doesn’t even come close to address the skill gap problem between units. Not all units are created equal and with no pugs out there slowly but surely all units would dry up from the bottom up. As the game becomes less and less playable for new or casual units.

[Katrina Steiner]

PiVoR, on 27 July 2022 - 01:52 PM, said:

PGI should just take notes from League of Legends system, 2 queues, solo and flex, solo only for pugs and flex for premades and solo players who wish to fill, also spawns should have turrets that insta kill enemies who come to close.

Done, FP is fixed and people have fun

yeah turrets for those who will then never leave the dropzone lol

[PiVoR]

IronWolfPack64, on 28 July 2022 - 10:09 AM, said:

This view is simplistic at best and doesn’t encompass the full extent of problems of faction play. Separate queue could only work if the solo queue was like 6v6 or something because there aren’t enough people. Also, it doesn’t even come close to address the skill gap problem between units. Not all units are created equal and with no pugs out there slowly but surely all units would dry up from the bottom up. As the game becomes less and less playable for new or casual units.

Thats the problem flex queue is going to address, people come, get **** on by premades, leave and never come back.
Me myself i give this game a chance once per year, just to remind myself why i dont play it anymore: "Ah yes, premades, thats why i uninstalled MWO a year ago".

[ccrider]

PiVoR, on 28 July 2022 - 05:05 PM, said:

Thats the problem flex queue is going to address, people come, get **** on by premades, leave and never come back.
Me myself i give this game a chance once per year, just to remind myself why i dont play it anymore: "Ah yes, premades, thats why i uninstalled MWO a year ago".

What Ironwolfpack is saying is that separating solo from group would have to be followed by a 3rd queue for casual units. Not all units are the same caluber; not all grouped players are the same caliber. FP is not equipped to give a queue for every type of unit, player etc. There's not even close to a population size for that. Like it or not, groups are and have always been the lifeblood of FP. PGI disensentiving units is what killed the population, it wasn't not having a solo mode.

[punisher]

Limit the number of squadded people to 4 instead of 12, like every other game of this type (War Thunder, World of Warships etc.). Fixed.

[Nathan White]

punisher, on 30 July 2022 - 05:47 AM, said:

Limit the number of squadded people to 4 instead of 12, like every other game of this type (War Thunder, World of Warships etc.). Fixed.

Nope. You already have QP for this.

[punisher]

Nathan White, on 30 July 2022 - 07:30 AM, said:

Nope. You already have QP for this.

Yes. And you already have comp/ranked queue for 12v12 units.

Edited by punisher, 31 July 2022 - 06:48 PM.

[vonJerg]

punisher, on 31 July 2022 - 06:46 PM, said:

Yes. And you already have comp/ranked queue for 12v12 units.

We do? I thought comp was just a few months a year and was 8v8 and/or even smaller.

[Rizzi Kell]

Stupid discussion,
PGI did not like this gamemode, and the couldron itselves destructed it by focussing on IS friendly pre comp buffs.
the playerbase which plays FP is to small so you will ever have one nearly 12man side and the other side is random.
just patch it out, let this just die with honor.