182 replies to this topic

[SirNotlag]

As the title states, lockon weapons have been in a bad way since the skill tree rework, If a mech doesn't have ECM chances are it has 100% radar deprivation.

you can bring Beagle probes or tag to effectively fight against ECM but there is nothing you can do against radar deprivation. It over rides the target delay nodes so even if you max them out as soon as a tree branch is placed between you and your target, lock and all targeting information is reset, meaning your skill node investment may as well be 0.

The problem is it completely guts lock on weapons and encourages the sniper meta. They take so long to get a lock, in that time even if the enemy is armed with heavy lasers they just got a full burn to your face before you can even shoot back. PLUS you then need to keep complete line of sight and staring while your missiles travel otherwise they will stop tracking and likely miss. It makes you unable to fight back against pokers even if they are hill humping rather than using hard cover because when line of sight is broken your missiles will instantly stop tracking. And you will never get a lock on a light running around Forest colony as the trees will continually reset the lock on.

I am not saying to gut or remove radar deprivation just reduce the nodes maybe down to 17% instead of 20% per node so maxed out is 85% instead of 100% except for the mechs that have radar deprivation quirks. This would only leave Lock on weapons with 15% of the original time plus 15% of the target delay nodes which I believe is only 0.9 seconds total time with all 5 nodes, not long enough to make it rain on a target but enough to allow your missiles to hit them allowing you to retaliate against a poke.

[ScrapIron Prime]

That's a fair idea. You need to do something to keep locks from disappearing so quickly. Either increase the velocity of lock on missiles so they can stand a better chance of landing a volley before the lock disappears, or do the same thing by reducing each Radar Dep node to 15% (meaning a mech would top out at 75% except for the few that get a 20-25% bonus).

[ThreeStooges]

Not every mech has rad derp. A reduction of rad derp would be great. Lrm either need mass boating right now or you go full crazy and put something like lrm 5 on the lct3s with a sml.

[ScrapIron Prime]

ThreeStooges, on 11 August 2022 - 07:56 PM, said:

Not every mech has rad derp. A reduction of rad derp would be great. Lrm either need mass boating right now or you go full crazy and put something like lrm 5 on the lct3s with a sml.

Actually I do pretty well with a pair of Artemis LRM15's backed by a bunch of ERML (clan or IS). Direct fire means more reliable locks and faster missile velocity and ability to dumb fire in the face of mass ECM.

[caravann]

Let's say that the light active probe reduce it by - 5% and the standard by -15%
Since active probe affects all mechs in an area.

The option is blinding speed by throwing out the radar and the computer and the driver seat

It's an option to drive blindfolded.

[Maj Destruction]

Hmm, maybe it's my lack of experience, but I LRM a lot and I've not noticed a problem. But I do try for line-of-sight locks as much as possible. As to Forest Colony...truth is, some maps are just bad for LRM'ers. It's a chance you take with that loadout.

I kinda feel like LRMs are a bit overpowered myself. When I just want to farm massive damage, I load up my LRM rig and have at it. I have learned that positioning is a pretty big deal in the big hulking assault rig I LRM with....not just to survive, but also to stay in LRM range, and also get good locks.

I do load up on radar dep on most of my rigs because I got really tired of getting lit up by LRMs, and I must say it did help. And I feel like it improves quality of gameplay for everyone involved.

Matt

[caravann]

The problem is that you're unable to lock on target with a TAG because they have ECM+ Radar deprivation that you don't get a lock while aiming at them with a TAG. It's uncommon but it happens.

[Saved By The Bell]

Its entire a strong ECM problem, not deprivation.

Well, all LRM mechs need to use other weapons too.

Edited by Saved By The Bell, 12 August 2022 - 12:00 AM.

[MechB Kotare]

I'd rather have faster lock aquiring and making lock based weapons fire and forget' so you can twist torso once you fired them and have them hit the target even when lock has been broken by doing so. Game should promote direct fire gameplay, not the cancerous staying behind cover and indirect spam of lrm 70 and above...

[Andrewlik]

SirNotlag, on 11 August 2022 - 07:42 PM, said:

As the title states, lockon weapons have been in a bad way since the skill tree rework, If a mech doesn't have ECM chances are it has 100% radar deprivation.

you can bring Beagle probes or tag to effectively fight against ECM but there is nothing you can do against radar deprivation. It over rides the target delay nodes so even if you max them out as soon as a tree branch is placed between you and your target, lock and all targeting information is reset, meaning your skill node investment may as well be 0.

The problem is it completely guts lock on weapons and encourages the sniper meta. They take so long to get a lock, in that time even if the enemy is armed with heavy lasers they just got a full burn to your face before you can even shoot back. PLUS you then need to keep complete line of sight and staring while your missiles travel otherwise they will stop tracking and likely miss. It makes you unable to fight back against pokers even if they are hill humping rather than using hard cover because when line of sight is broken your missiles will instantly stop tracking. And you will never get a lock on a light running around Forest colony as the trees will continually reset the lock on.

I am not saying to gut or remove radar deprivation just reduce the nodes maybe down to 17% instead of 20% per node so maxed out is 85% instead of 100% except for the mechs that have radar deprivation quirks. This would only leave Lock on weapons with 15% of the original time plus 15% of the target delay nodes which I believe is only 0.9 seconds total time with all 5 nodes, not long enough to make it rain on a target but enough to allow your missiles to hit them allowing you to retaliate against a poke.

I don't currently have a problem getting locks as an arctic wolf (lrm 5 x 80+ narc, no bap) but that's mainly because I've been using its mobility to get into favorable situations.
In theory I like this change, increases the value of information warfare quirks as a whole, and it might work in practice, hut you'll still get tens of forumers complaining about lrms.

[The6thMessenger]

ThreeStooges, on 11 August 2022 - 07:56 PM, said:

Not every mech has rad derp. A reduction of rad derp would be great. Lrm either need mass boating right now or you go full crazy and put something like lrm 5 on the lct3s with a sml.

Who TF is not maxing out Radar Derp these days? Skill-Tree has been optimized with less clutter, it's easier to get now. Back then I can only take 1 node by investing 5 and I needed 7 for 2 as my minimum default, now I can get 2 nodes with the same 5 nodes.

[ScrapIron Prime]

The6thMessenger, on 12 August 2022 - 05:11 AM, said:

Who TF is not maxing out Radar Derp these days? Skill-Tree has been optimized with less clutter, it's easier to get now. Back then I can only take 1 node by investing 5 and I needed 7 for 2 as my minimum default, now I can get 2 nodes with the same 5 nodes.

I always take 5 nodes of Derp. It's just cheaper now. To instantly make people lose lock is to dodge lurms even behind a gentle slope and make people's minimap forget about you so they're less able to take you into account in their plan. This means more armor for later.

[SirNotlag]

Maj Destruction, on 11 August 2022 - 10:38 PM, said:

Hmm, maybe it's my lack of experience, but I LRM a lot and I've not noticed a problem. But I do try for line-of-sight locks as much as possible. As to Forest Colony...truth is, some maps are just bad for LRM'ers. It's a chance you take with that loadout.

I kinda feel like LRMs are a bit overpowered myself. When I just want to farm massive damage, I load up my LRM rig and have at it. I have learned that positioning is a pretty big deal in the big hulking assault rig I LRM with....not just to survive, but also to stay in LRM range, and also get good locks.

I do load up on radar dep on most of my rigs because I got really tired of getting lit up by LRMs, and I must say it did help. And I feel like it improves quality of gameplay for everyone involved.

Matt

You possibly have more experience than me than, I play all play styles and I have just found that LRMing has become the least effective for my damage numbers because of these skill nodes. It also rubs me the wrong way that that the radar deprivation nodes completely overide the target delay nodes if the max radar deprivations was 90% then i would at least be getting 0.07seconds per node instead of nothing.

Maybe my positioning is poor for an LRM boat or maybe I am too aggressive But i find i can only farm big damage numbers on matches where its a 12 - 1 stomp in my favour that my team would have won without me because unless my team is steam rolling or I am fresh enough to tank the hits compared to my target the locks just don't seem to stick otherwise.

[LordNothing]

missiles need a reduction of hard counters while leaving the soft counters in. nerf the derp slightly.

tag needs to be stronger to justify itself. it should be able to force an ecm mech to light up no matter what. it should also be restored as a lock time reducer. on the is side i often take an lppc instead (cerppc is a harder sell but i got one on my atm spirit bear).

narc needs to be either way stronger or way lighter to justify itself (this can be in the form of extra ammo/t, or better yet knock a ton off the weight of the is version of the weapon). it should also be ams-proof (who counters the counters).

bap needs to be stronger and better defined.

other weapon types need equivalent counters (new armors, blue shield, etc).

[Bassault]

No. I've never had so much fun in MW:O since these latest patches, the way LRMs and ATMs have been nerfed to the ground with Radar Deprivation increases the enjoyment of the game for most people. No more sky cancer because the enemy next to me spotted me, so the lobotomite 700m away can be rewarded for pressing R. Not aiming should not be rewarded. I should not be dying to someone who isn't aiming, mindlessly pressing R. God bless the new skill tree.

Edited by I LOVE ANNIHILATORS, 12 August 2022 - 09:16 AM.

[ScrapIron Prime]

I LOVE ANNIHILATORS, on 12 August 2022 - 09:13 AM, said:

No. I've never had so much fun in MW:O since these latest patches, the way LRMs and ATMs have been nerfed to the ground with Radar Deprivation increases the enjoyment of the game for most people. No more sky cancer because the enemy next to me spotted me, so the lobotomite 700m away can be rewarded for pressing R. Not aiming should not be rewarded. I should not be dying to someone who isn't aiming, mindlessly pressing R. God bless the new skill tree.

Right, but you have to strike a balance somewhere between "sky cancer" and "total inability to shoot anything with this weapon system". I don't support the return of the former, but I do believe its adjusted too far to the other. Small changes to Radar Derp and increasing velocity of LRMs and ATMs might fix it without breaking it the other direction again.

[Mahpsy]

ScrapIron Prime, on 12 August 2022 - 09:46 AM, said:

Right, but you have to strike a balance somewhere between "sky cancer" and "total inability to shoot anything with this weapon system". I don't support the return of the former, but I do believe its adjusted too far to the other. Small changes to Radar Derp and increasing velocity of LRMs and ATMs might fix it without breaking it the other direction again.

More velocity would help but it doesn't need much. Most of the issues people complain about is being locked on from miles away without any counter measures. I.e. " I want to walk in the open without being obliterated." Sounds dumb right? You should care about where you move and how you move. I also say that missiles that lose lock mid flight should still track their target considering how much you can do to avoid them in the first place.

Imo this would be a opportunity to dabble into the information war fare. Say unless you are in a command mech(Cyclops, atlas, etc.) or scout based mechs all sensors lock on range should be drastically reduced and what information you gathered is to you and you alone unless playing mentioned mech/types. It would force LRM boats to work with their team more(even though they should considering any light or fast medium will rip open any non-mixed build LRM mech).

Edited by Mahpsy, 12 August 2022 - 10:11 AM.

[Nightbird]

Lock on missiles are OP in the lower tier fights (in a frustrating and newbie quit-inducing way), as you get to higher tier fights it is intended for you to use other weapons more often. I'm against any buffs through radar derp nerfs.

Maybe if we took away indirect locks without special equipment to target share, but we're past the point for game dev.

Edited by Nightbird, 12 August 2022 - 10:35 AM.

[Glymbol]

Saved By The Bell, on 11 August 2022 - 11:57 PM, said:

Its entire a strong ECM problem, not deprivation.

I agree, ECM is too strong in my opinion. It gives so much advantage that sometimes I see half the team using it. I played Locusts for some time and the Pirate's Bane with ECM feels almost like cheating compared to the rest of them. The same goes for Cicadas where 3M is really good mech wile others are so-so.

Edited by Glymbol, 12 August 2022 - 10:36 AM.

[SirNotlag]

Nightbird, on 12 August 2022 - 10:32 AM, said:

Lock on missiles are OP in the lower tier fights (in a frustrating and newbie quit-inducing way), as you get to higher tier fights it is intended for you to use other weapons more often. I'm against any buffs through radar derp nerfs.

Maybe if we took away indirect locks without special equipment to target share, but we're past the point for game dev.

Lower tiers dont have Radar deprivation so it would not affect those matches at all.