207 replies to this topic

[Moadebe]

The6thMessenger, on 27 October 2023 - 05:17 AM, said:

I see, so even tho it's much more spread, it means it's impossible to shield from?

Imagine ER PPCs and if their splash was "more"....now add more damage.....Yeah you cant poptart HAGS currently....but the range more than makes up for it due to the high damage.....yeah this WILL be a slippery slope if HAGS are given splash

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Curccu, on 26 October 2023 - 10:06 PM, said:

PS. I have not been in receiving part of this, played few quickplays and punch of FP and HAGs are stupidly good.

I mean they are good, but I also don't find them that crazy playing with or playing against, not Gauss/PPC level at least.

That said, I'm also totally okay with heat being increased to make combining with lasers less palatable. HAGs by themselves I don't find problematic, but combined with the lasers I can see how they might be a little rough in QP.

Their combination with cERLL I don't really find as problematic but I can see why some might not like it, it's at the mid-long range that their combination with cERML/cLPL/cHLL can make that combo probably the most dangerous, adding heat pretty much nerfs both though.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 27 October 2023 - 07:25 AM.

[MrTBSC]

Hawk819, on 25 October 2023 - 05:03 PM, said:

Secondly, for those who're complaining about HAGs, be glad Matt & Co, went with HAGs, and not RACs.

YES, the Clans have RACs. Same Mechanic, Same Size/Critical Space, and Same weight as their Inner Sphere Counterparts.

wrong, Clan RACs have actualy more critical space, compared to their IS counterparts, are experimental tech and have a slight range advantage (pretty standart Clan attribute)

Edited by MrTBSC, 27 October 2023 - 08:21 AM.

[MrTBSC]

Nine-Ball, on 26 October 2023 - 06:23 PM, said:

if you still want to bring a huge alpha beat stick that can't manuever all that well then don't be surprised when a HAG can tear you down from afar.

so it´s ok that the enemy is bringing a huge long effective alpha stick
but it´s not ok if i want to bring a big but short alpha stick that already has significant downsides to it?
why should i keep playing when the playstyle i had was previously viable, effective and not OP but has now been rendered obsolete because of the new far more effective weaponsystem?

and again no ammount of "git gud" will change this ... you HAVE casual gamers in this, no ammount of MM rework will change that either .. this means there will be players in their assault pinatas who will eat HAG salvos more often ... they will take more effective DPS before they can dish it out on larger maps ... and depending on the map cover may favor the sniper far more than the brawler/juggernaut who tries to get in without having ecm or stealth ...

The6thMessenger, on 26 October 2023 - 08:41 PM, said:

And realistically, basically it's the slow and wide mechs that eat up damage in general, so they are the prime target of HAGs.

But if i were to compare HAGs to something, I would put them as the kind-of-equivalent to MRMs in the sense of damage, but when the MRMs have comparatively massive spread that offset it and the general tactic is just damage saturation that requires short-range -- often point blank to focus on one component, the HAGs are instead pretty accurate and can be focused at a long distance. If the direct damage of HAG is paltry or reigned in, I wouldn't have much reservation.

One suggestion in the Discord that I liked is to make the HAGs instead deal spread-damage like C-ERPPC, that it instead deals 3 PPFLD + 2 and split among components. That honestly makes sense to me, to force the spreading of damage, then they can be as accurate and as long range as they please.

the way i envisioned HAGs since Sarna mentioned flechettes for cluster ammo would be that they where a chargeable LB X - Burst - AC, so basicaly LB-X 5 (times ammount of shots fitting the HAG damage) ... and as such would have inherrit splash by default ... but as they are now imho they NEED spread at midrange ...

and i´m gonna be honest ... i have no intention of taking them or playing the game as they are now ...

[foamyesque]

The6thMessenger, on 26 October 2023 - 08:41 PM, said:

But if i were to compare HAGs to something, I would put them as the kind-of-equivalent to MRMs in the sense of damage, but when the MRMs have comparatively massive spread that offset it and the general tactic is just damage saturation that requires short-range -- often point blank to focus on one component, the HAGs are instead pretty accurate and can be focused at a long distance. If the direct damage of HAG is paltry or reigned in, I wouldn't have much reservation.

cUAC/10s is my own preferred basis of comparison, though hey, if we had MRMs with HAG spread, speed, and range you can bet your *** we'd see an avalanche of salt from people, possibly even the same people defending HAGs as perfectly cromulent weaponry. :v

Two HAG30s puts out the burst of three cUAC10s and the DPS of two of them. They do so at longer ranges, and while they're 6t heavier and use more crits than a pair of cUAC10s they run the same heat, are more ammo efficient, have better velocity and range, don't jam at inconvenient times, and are much lighter, cooler, and more hardpoint and slot efficient, than the number of cUAC10s required to match the burst damage.

There's zero reason right now IMO to be running cUAC10s over HAG30s. The stretched burst duration from the Sept. patch means gauss is competitive for pinpoint, but with the reduced spread from the Oct. one, if you catch someone unaware, it still doesn't really matter. Even if you splash half your damage onto other components, a HAG30 still punches a hole in your intended one just like a standard gauss would and now you've weakened something else on the machine to boot.

Edited by foamyesque, 27 October 2023 - 08:28 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

foamyesque, on 27 October 2023 - 08:27 AM, said:

Two HAG30s puts out the burst of three cUAC10s and the DPS of two of them. They do so at longer ranges, and while they're 6t heavier and use more crits than a pair of cUAC10s they run the same heat, are more ammo efficient, have better velocity and range, don't jam at inconvenient times, and are much lighter, cooler, and more hardpoint and slot efficient, than the number of cUAC10s required to match the burst damage.

I'm not disagreeing that cUAC10s seem weaker in comparison, damage per ton of ammo should probably be "normalized" across the board and the velocity of ACs as a whole probably should come up......but comparing cUAC10 burst damage to HAGs is a bit like comparing AC5s to Gauss. Yeah, 3 AC5s is a lot heavier for equivalent burst damage, but that kind of ignores the point of the AC5s in the first place, which is DPS (3 AC5s just give you 3x the DPS of Gauss unlike the cUAC10 vs HAG comparison which is less favorable).

I still prefer lower the damage of the HAGs overall, but short of that, increase heat and cooldown.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 27 October 2023 - 09:17 AM.

[Meep Meep]

Moadebe, on 27 October 2023 - 05:25 AM, said:

Imagine ER PPCs and if their splash was "more"....now add more damage.....Yeah you cant poptart HAGS currently....but the range more than makes up for it due to the high damage.....yeah this WILL be a slippery slope if HAGS are given splash

Heh no way will hags get splash damage.. They tried that **** with lrm and they had to hotfix patch it out because it was simply melting mechs. Splash is fine for single projectile weapons but it multiplies damage way too much if you are applying it to a salvo.

[LordNothing]

frankly id rather have a hag meta than a blue laser meta, its getting a little stale.

[World Ending Chipmunk of Doom]

HAG is another nail in coffin of this game catering to small group of old mech daddie with too much cash to spend on legendary mechs and same playing style.

[The6thMessenger]

Meep Meep, on 27 October 2023 - 01:40 PM, said:

Heh no way will hags get splash damage.. They tried that **** with lrm and they had to hotfix patch it out because it was simply melting mechs. Splash is fine for single projectile weapons but it multiplies damage way too much if you are applying it to a salvo.

They really did that? The cauldron did that?

MrTBSC, on 27 October 2023 - 08:21 AM, said:

the way i envisioned HAGs since Sarna mentioned flechettes for cluster ammo would be that they where a chargeable LB X - Burst - AC, so basicaly LB-X 5 (times ammount of shots fitting the HAG damage) ... and as such would have inherrit splash by default ... but as they are now imho they NEED spread at midrange ...

and i´m gonna be honest ... i have no intention of taking them or playing the game as they are now ...

Yeah the "burst-fire LBX" is honestly good for me, though LB10 is what I prefer. They talk about server load, while sure okay they don't want to add to that, but it's a moot point considering that there's MRMs, LRMs, and LBXs that do such by the numbers.

While yes, I am a proponent to zero-spread HAGs, that is on the provision that they intended to keep this unfun-as-**** long-*** burst-fire that inevitably spread. But the conception in the first place reeks of bias for ultra long-range stuff, it ain't conducive to the game to have a 20-30-40 damage equipment, that one can fire two of at a total of 40-60-80 damage respectively, outwards 810m optimal. It encroaches on the AC2 family, and it loses less relevance on the virtue that the AC2 is only really relevant with hardpoint-inflation.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

The6thMessenger, on 27 October 2023 - 04:19 PM, said:

Yeah the "burst-fire LBX" is honestly good for me, though LB10 is what I prefer. They talk about server load, while sure okay they don't want to add to that, but it's a moot point considering that there's MRMs, LRMs, and LBXs that do such by the numbers.

I mean hitreg is rough with those weapons, that said I don't know if server load is also the problem. I imagine client side is rough too because of the effects Gauss shots have, I could easily see FPS tanking on that many gauss shots

I'm sure there is something different/spaghetti about Gauss shots though.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 27 October 2023 - 05:49 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 27 October 2023 - 05:38 PM, said:

I mean hitreg is rough with those weapons, that said I don't know if server load is also the problem. I imagine client side is rough too because of the effects Gauss shots have, I could easily see FPS tanking on that many gauss shots

I'm sure there is something different/spaghetti about Gauss shots though.

Yeah well, I truly don't really know PC stuffs, so won't really push for it.

[Meep Meep]

The6thMessenger, on 27 October 2023 - 04:19 PM, said:

They really did that? The cauldron did that?

Oh no this was years ago under the original balance team who took the game on a wild roller coaster of changes that rarely ever worked because they kept trying to shoehorn in bt balance into a first person shooter.

[KursedVixen]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 27 October 2023 - 05:38 PM, said:

I mean hitreg is rough with those weapons, that said I don't know if server load is also the problem. I imagine client side is rough too because of the effects Gauss shots have, I could easily see FPS tanking on that many gauss shots

I'm sure there is something different/spaghetti about Gauss shots though.

You'd think hit reg would be something of a priority to fix.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

KursedVixen, on 27 October 2023 - 07:03 PM, said:

You'd think hit reg would be something of a priority to fix.

Not on this old of a game, untangling it isn't gonna have that great of an RoI, that's part of the reason they are pulling all engineering from the game (I may have misheard/misread that though).

[Meep Meep]

KursedVixen, on 27 October 2023 - 07:03 PM, said:

You'd think hit reg would be something of a priority to fix.

All engineering support has been pulled from this game. At this point its backports of mechs from mw5 and cauldron balance changes with maybe a few more maps and weapons since those are cheap to do by reusing existing assets. We are stuck with however the code base is set up hit reg and physics bugs etc included. This is it boiz. Enjoy the game while the hard core of the base keeps it alive with cash sales. I think we have a fair few more years to go before they turn off the lights for good.

The one light at the end of the tunnel is that there will be a future mechwarrior themed pvp game but zero details other than no f2p model and it will be smaller scale possibly with bot teams to flesh out the rosters.

[MrTBSC]

Nine-Ball, on 27 October 2023 - 09:20 AM, said:

If your able to close the gap between you and the sniper without taking too much damage, you'll have the advantage in a brawl. Heat management and reload speed are in your favor when you get them within your ideal range.

Smaller faster mechs can tie them up and distract them until you can close that gap if the map isn't favorable to your position.

that´s already too many factors that won´t just simply allign for an optimal situation to close in on a HAG user ...
even then if you managed to close the distance you are likely to get a 60+ or 80+ alpha hit, worse lose a critical sidetorso.

reloadspeed depends on the loadout aswell as the dmgoutput per firingcycle ... meaning if you have less alpha then the HAG user you need more firiingcycles to destroy a critical sidetorso of him or core him ...

if for instance you take a dual HAG 30 + dual ERLL build that can core the Tourmaline Desert Atlas AS7-D in 2 and a half firingcycles, armor quirks are not far off from a direwolf prime, Kodiak 3 has a bit less armor

take the HAGs with dual HLL that 2 shots that atlas and 1 shots lights and most medium mech sidetorsos ...
all that is neccesary is that the poor pilot for one reason or another stood still long enough (which happens more often then you think) .. best case scenario about 14 seconds (cooldown and duration) to be cored or crippled in your assaultmech

a 50 or 60 PPFLD IS build needs 4 alphas to core the same Atlas, lets say you get to shot first you still need 12 to 15 more seconds to get the critical damage in .. if the HAG user got his first succeslfull salvo in you are likely hosed in the next 7 seconds
... he may not even need to worry about a shut down with a coolshot or could still overide and be willing to take the heatdmg ...

LordNothing, on 27 October 2023 - 02:39 PM, said:

frankly id rather have a hag meta than a blue laser meta, its getting a little stale.

hmmm lets see DW with 8 ER LL the enemy has to group or chainfire otherwise eat GH vs a dual HAG 30 + dual ERLL he can totaly alpha for the same dmg of the afformentioned build´s firiringcyle ... yea no i´d take the laser poison instead ...

World Ending Chipmunk of Doom, on 27 October 2023 - 03:48 PM, said:

HAG is another nail in coffin of this game catering to small group of old mech daddie with too much cash to spend on legendary mechs and same playing style.

you don´t need legendaries at all for HAG use ...

[Curccu]

Nine-Ball, on 29 October 2023 - 07:34 PM, said:

I mean yeah the Ebon Jag with 30% cooldown reduction for ballistics makes your HAG20s fire ultra fast but it'll quickly need to use its cool shots otherwise its wasting time cooling down normally -- and your essentially only running those plus another laser weapon just so you can fit enough ammo to last the entire match.

Ebon jag with 30% CD from quirks and two HAG20s.... with ~2k ammo has more ATO than ammo for alphas.

[Meep Meep]

Ok I finally have played my hagcat again after the patch after burning out on the lolrm locust. Ahhhahaha. Hags are ~perfect~ now. Lock em in cauldron and move on to something else.

[Weeny Machine]

The6thMessenger, on 24 October 2023 - 08:36 PM, said:

I honestly think that their involvement causes a feedback loop, reinforcing their game ideals. They made maps necessitate certain balance that they like on their values, ideals and philosophy in how to play the game, and then said balance then necessitates the changes in maps -- and on and on and on.

And that **** there is reflected with the HAGs, where I suspect they got bored with the typical gauss-vomit, and wanted to go back to ACs but still wanted to snipe -- thus the Gauss that functions like an AC.

It was always said "skill issue" as a filter -- it's just the truth, the reality, so we should just listen to them because we aren't qualified: they know how the game is best played. Rather convenient now that they are the ones dictating how it's played.

An interesting game should have more viable game styles. Don't get me wrong, you can't have absolute balance and there will always be stronger and weaker styles. However, if you take a step back and weigh risk vs reward then sniping is easily the best hands down by a far margin. It is easy to disengage, you do not need to manage your heat as closely as a brawler, you do not sneak up on the target, you have huge range...etc.

The point is: a healthy, interesting game tries to achieve varity. The Cauldron instead celebrates their sniper/camper fetish. That's why I log hardly in anymore.