54 replies to this topic

[verybad]

Yes. But it actually doesn't say that there can only be 3 players with commander skills in the game. Any player can pick up those skills, and buy those modules...

The commander doesn't have to actually be the one with the most commander skills and modules for that skill.

I'm certain that the commander role will be taken by more than 33% in the beginning as many people think they're brilliant (I too was going to do this, then I remembered that pride comes before a fall, so I'm going to go down the mostly attack/defend skills path, at least at the beginning. I plan on taking skills from each path however (depending on how many modules are available in a Dragon)

So in actual ranking, a company would have 2 lower ranked (Lieutenant or the equivalent, and one higher ranked officer (Captain or equivalent), in reality, players should be able to pick up any skill (though not fit them all in their mech).

It's too early to truly know, but this makes the most sense, there's no reason to keep players from not taking skills outside their main path, they pay by not getting the higher end skills, at least not as soon.

I think the Clans will have different skill paths, and it DOES make sense to make them separate (for instnace a Clan Commander would have more morale buff skills for other clan players, and they would get bonuses from winning duels rather than sharing kills, and few if any support fire skills (they don't like artillery at all)

[CobraFive]

Why is it that every time a feature is announced, every time, with even the most basic information available to us, it is automatically assumed that this feature is game ruining and completely throws the balance of everything else out of whack?

Modules completely invalidate existing mech variants, pilot skills take away real player skills, mech/pilot progression is super grindy, commanders are too powerful... etc etc...

We literally are told the most basic of information and automatically fill in the blanks with absolute worst case scenario, every time.

[verybad]

Because this is a forum for a game based on a series of games, with some fanatical fans, on the internet.

For what it's worth, people always ask why these sort of questions and respinses also come up...

[Dakkonn]

Sigh I just don't see the point I guess in this topic till the game is physically in our hands (at least a beta) making speculations is kinda pointless. You might as well say "The assist target under the assault is so broken think if you linked them all? with that much damage stacked your lance could one shot an atlas with only splash damage from LRMs." Or how about "geez with commander scans why use scouts just run 9 commanders and constant scan?"

So again I'll say, I don't mind talking about this game but I'd rather not theory-tech this game and discuss things we know for fact about the game.

[Big Willie]

Riptor, on 06 February 2012 - 11:32 AM, said:

I can see the scout having somewhat of a place next to a commander, but why should i take someone with an assault role in an assault mech into my team when i can have another commander who can call down the wrath of a naval vessels bombardment on my enemys that he found beforehand with a satelity scan?

You are making several huge assumptions.
1. that you can peform a scan and call artillery. it is very possible that these abilites will have a cooldown time or require a continious spotter to paint a target (performing a scan will not tell you if an enemy is stationary or moving)

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Both sit in Assault mechs... both have the same amounts of weapons installed in their mechs/same mech level... but one has only passive buffs while the other brings in additional firepower and brings a whole batch of scouting abilities with it.

I am certain that in a dev blog they indicated the prefered mech for a commander is Light/Medium/Heavy. So either Assault (weight) mechs are not allowed, or your abilities have a limited range that will require greater mobility.

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I mean less heat is all nice and dandy but if i can have 4 dudes calling down naval bombardement i know what i would choose. So how do you keep things like 12 commanders vs 12 commanders from happening? How do you keep Mechwarrior online from degrading into Artillery warrior online?

They also indicated that only one commander per lance, and in a company only one company commander. You are also assuming that a naval bombardment will provide superior firepower to a mech.

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After all this isnt like battlefield where you can switch roles on the fly with little to no consequence. If you choose to make your pilot a commander in this game you will be stuck with it it seems. So limiting the number of commanders per game would punish those players for choosing the commander role.

This is a legitimate concern. However it is no worse than finding yourself in a game with all scouts. It all depends on how matchmaking takes place. Hopefully there will be a 'waiting room' were you can sign up for role before deployment, so if you find yourself not able to take the Commander role you can find another waiting room. Although I'm not sure how all that will work with the whole House/Merc/Lonewolf and contracts.

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Also remember that one commander calling an artillery strike might be fine and dandy in the great scheme of things but if 6 commanders at once call for artillery fire and the other 6 wait their turn it pretty much would get ugly and not fun very fast for everyone else.

Again, 1 commander per lance. And even if you could have a lance of 4 commanders, 4 people calling down artillery would be completely ineffective. You still only have one artillery team, and you have 4 people arguing over the best target. Plus, I don't think artillery is going to be that great. It will be fine for getting people out of cover, but most mechs will be moving around anyway, meaning most artillery will strike where the target was.

[verybad]

Well without speculation, all we can do is mull over the known facts, that's hardly fun!

[CoffiNail]

Dakkonn, on 06 February 2012 - 02:50 PM, said:

Sigh I just don't see the point I guess in this topic till the game is physically in our hands (at least a beta) making speculations is kinda pointless. You might as well say "The assist target under the assault is so broken think if you linked them all? with that much damage stacked your lance could one shot an atlas with only splash damage from LRMs." Or how about "geez with commander scans why use scouts just run 9 commanders and constant scan?"

So again I'll say, I don't mind talking about this game but I'd rather not theory-tech this game and discuss things we know for fact about the game.

You know I bet a number of ideas/concerns that end up getting brought up have helped PGI. Something they never thought of, a concern they did not think of. A great example would be someone talking about how they have motion sickness and 1st person can cause them to get nausea. Bryan Ekman comes on, and replies it was not something they had thought of and they were going to think of ways to address the problem.

So the theory-tech entertains us, lets the DEV team know they have fanatical fans, and gives everyone something to do!

[Riptor]

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Dunno.. how did you feel it was in the last play test?

*wipes smarmy smartarse look off his face*

Ohohoho Paul.. dont you think that there is a huge difference between if you guys are testing the game internaly and when actuall players.. you know.. will play the game?

Players will abuse the hell out of any inbalance ingame no matter how small... thats a fact.. has allways been like that.. will allways been like that... even more so if its a competitive game.

That being said i just reread some of the info on the commander role.

So there will be 4 Commanders max per side per match...

Good atleast that keeps the 12 commanders vs 12 commanders nightmare from happening

On the other hand i feel bad for any excess commanders that wont be able to join Merc corp fights because they choose the wrong role *shrugs* oh well... cant have everything i guess.


Still im a bit iffy about giving the commander both scout and fire support abilities ontop of the ability to issue commands and use all the data gathered by everyone else on the field.

It just seems a bit to much to be honest. Why is the commander able to call in a scout drone and not the scout? So confusing...

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the prefered mech for a commander is Light/Medium/Heavy

Thats a recomendation not a limitation.. and if you dont believe that assaults can be fast please take a look at the charger or the gargoyle (eventhought the latter is a clan machine and we wont see those for a year)

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people calling down artillery would be completely ineffective. You still only have one artillery team

Whos assuming now? First off four people calling down artillery means 4 times the damage, if those people are organized and call down the artillery on the exact same spot that means HUGE AOE damage that maybe might even be enough to waste an entire lance.

Also who said that there will be only one "artillery team"? Last time i checked the commanders abilities, it stated that there are different forms of artillery in addition to predator drones. Nowhere did it said that commanders would have to fight over who gets to use these abilities.

And IF all commanders share the same cooldown.. whats the use of having more then one commander? And even if you cant call in artillery all at once people will just call in artillery one after another nailing down any oponent or simpyl wiping them out if they are to slow.

Anyways this isnt suposed to be bashing the game or the devs but i have seen many a game being ruined by decisions that looked good on paper but actually destroyed the game for almost anyone, again i cannot point often enough at Warhammer online... awesome on paper... really really really really bad in actual game. And mythic had the experience AND the money from EA to make their game.

Edited by Riptor, 07 February 2012 - 12:13 AM.

[Sug]

Omg how could they consider putting blank in the game? Based on almost zero information I've come to the conclusion that blank will be over powered and will lead to other blank. Then all players will have to do is blank their blank. This will create a serious divide between players with blank and casual players.

And don't get me started on blank. Blank? Blank?? You're missing the big picture! Can you say Pay-to-Win? Yeah? Cause that's what will happen if blank is put in the game.

Unless of course you balance the blank with some kind of hard counter blank. I'd be cool with that.

[Colonel Bogey]

I am excited to read more about said blank. Some people are giving pretty valid points. I hope that when they decide to give us more blank we will not jump to such quick conclusions. Its a little early to start the fear mongering.

[Riptor]

Hey Sug and Colonel...

You must have been the guys playtesting Warhammer online, vanguard: Saga of heros and ohohoho ofcourse APB. ah and dont forget the "combat upgrade" that went through SWG

See people on those games had the same annoying habbit of kissing the ground the Devs walked onto and look where all three of those games are now.

Also if discussions like this werent wanted then why do we have a general and suggestion forum at all? Why not only allow applauding on the newsposts and talk in the off topic forum.. cause HEY.. the game isnt even out yet and we dont have any "real data" to fall back onto.

But behold! Once the game is out and the damage is done it costs alot of money to fix these issues.. and time.. time that could be better spend polishing the game or adding new content. So i rather state my worries now then just sit back and go "Told you so" once the damage is done... arent i a nice guy?

I have played online games for over 15 years now and i have seen lots of heralded overhyped inflated games fail miserably because everyone was blinded by the Rose tinted glasses and did not put ANYTHING the Devs implemented in doubt.

Edited by Riptor, 07 February 2012 - 12:35 AM.

[Lorcan Lladd]

But, seriously. Blank,

Artillery serves the simple purpose of destroying fortifications and breaking 'Mech formations and that's pretty much all it's good at.

For example, if your enemy lance moves up a hill overseeing an open field and then suddenly stops, puts its Assaults on front, its support Heavies on the back, its Mediums on the fringes, fortifying its position, and just sits there waiting for you...
...Well, that tactic, also called camping, could be pretty effective against a rival lance.

You can't approach them without getting blasted to smithereens because you'll be spotted pretty fast.
However, they're pretty visible sitting up there - and they're not only static, they're also so entrenched that it would take them a while to shift positions or move, individually or as a group.

Their tactic, which makes them impervious to 'Mech assaults, also makes them vulnerable to artillery fire.

Artillery is here to prevent camping and accelerate the pacing of a game revolving around slow, lumbering, towering 'Mech on 'Mech action - it's not going to win the match for you, not unless your opponents are being funny, at least.
For one thing, if you're moving, when artillery shells or units arrive, you'll have long left their area of effect.

As long as you move, you're safe from them.

Edit.
So, in my opinion, no, the commander role, or, at least, the command abilities to call in artillery, are not in any way overpowered; they're best suited to specific situations and tactics just like the others.

Edited by Lorcan Lladd, 07 February 2012 - 12:36 AM.

[Riptor]

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Artillery serves the simple purpose of destroying fortifications and breaking 'Mech formations and that's pretty much all it's good at.

Artillery is also used to soften up the enemy.. the problem is that artillery will be alot more precise then it most often is in real live.

A naval bombardment for example might have a spread that engulfes an entire City... i highly doubt that this will be the case in the game.. the maps simply arent big enough in most cases.

Add to that that it seems Assaults and some heavys will be very very slow.. i see alot of dead or crippled mechs that were not camping. *shrugs*

Ofcourse artillery has alot of strategic value.. but im afraid people wont use it for areal denial but rather to spam it on a lance of mechs to wipe them out.

Also its not only the artillery...

Its that commanders get both Scouting abilities and adding a **** ton of firepower to the team. A predator drone for example isnt really an artillery strike but a very precise weapon (if they are anything like in real live)

Or a UAV... why exactly does the commander have that and not the scout? I simply think that the commander might just have to many tools on their hands... reminds me more of the new Armored core that is comming up with the difference that in Armored core 5 the commander cannot pilot an AC during a match.

[Lorcan Lladd]

Riptor, on 07 February 2012 - 12:42 AM, said:

Or a UAV... why exactly does the commander have that and not the scout? I simply think that the commander might just have to many tools on their hands... reminds me more of the new Armored core that is comming up with the difference that in Armored core 5 the commander cannot pilot an AC during a match.

The commander role does have more tools and active abilities, in potential - however, I doubt that any more than a few of those would be available simultaneously; for one thing, they need modules in order to become usable.
Modules first have to be bought by the pilot - and they may be expensive - then installed into his or her 'Mech, which possesses limited module slots.

A commander might have to choose between setting orders in the BattleGrid and calling in artillery strikes or launching probes.
According to the last developer annoucements, at least.

As for the UAV, well, that's probably more useful as a self-defense tool rather than a scouting one; it only reveals the terrain, structures and 'Mechs in the user's vicinity, probably revealing ambushes and close attackers as well, but the scout would pilot a faster 'Mech which would be harder to ambush and engage, anyway.

The role is more about spotting such things from range, rather than up close.
Edit, hence the 7x magnification module it gets.

I can understand the concern, but the roles and skill trees all seem pretty solid, to me.

Edited by Lorcan Lladd, 07 February 2012 - 01:04 AM.

[Sug]

Who's worshiping the dev's feet? I'm poking fun at the people that are serious about having a serious discussion about something we have next to no information about.

You're talking about hypotheticals that some random person off the internet formed into a statement.

You guys are talking about 4 people on a team being commanders and using their airstrikes on the same target at the same time and how unfair that would be. We don't even know what an airstrike is!

cobrafive, on 06 February 2012 - 02:16 PM, said:

Why is it that every time a feature is announced, every time, with even the most basic information available to us, it is automatically assumed that this feature is game ruining and completely throws the balance of everything else out of whack?

Modules completely invalidate existing mech variants, pilot skills take away real player skills, mech/pilot progression is super grindy, commanders are too powerful... etc etc...

We literally are told the most basic of information and automatically fill in the blanks with absolute worst case scenario, every time.

[John Clavell]

Will people stop starting threads on the forums which state that x y z is overpowered and unbalanced based on little to no solid information. Also let's not forget, the skill trees we were shown were to give the community and idea how they will work. They are not a final or complete indication of the actual modifiers and potential modules that will be available.

[Barantor]

John Clavell, on 07 February 2012 - 01:04 AM, said:

Will people stop starting threads on the forums which state that x y z is overpowered and unbalanced based on little to no solid information. Also let's not forget, the skill trees we were shown were to give the community and idea how they will work. They are not a final or complete indication of the actual modifiers and potential modules that will be available.

Re-read the title of the thread, it isn't "The commander is too powerful" but "Is the commander too powerful" and then riptor goes on to state why it may be possible and some theories.

Really tired of folks coming into threads and saying "We don't know X yet, don't talk about it" because I always figured... you know... forums were for talking about things.

[Mims]

Impliment anything to prevent 4 assaults camping tactical terrain near their drop point is my thought.

[Ian MacLeary]

Mims, on 07 February 2012 - 09:24 AM, said:

Impliment anything to prevent 4 assaults camping tactical terrain near their drop point is my thought.

Let them. Once we defeat the rest of their company in detail a scout will get a long-range eyeball on them and we'll LRM them to death.

[Adridos]

One commander, maybe more depending on the player per battle count (I somehow forgot it).
I hope it is something special, not just another warrior with call-ins instead of better weapons...