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The dirty question of money, isnt it time for some answers?


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#21 Nick Makiaveli

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 05:37 AM

I think the OP needs to read up on the game in specific and F2P in general. The whole bit about buying an Atlas and having it destroyed is partially answered in that mechs are never completely destroyed or at least they are repaired to bare minimum systems. General consensus seems to be that you pay for weapons, armor, and ammo repairs/replacement.

As to a $200 surprise charge showing up, I doubt they will spend millions to develop a game just to steal some money and wind up in jail.

In other words, read up on the game and the company behind it.

#22 Thunderwave

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 05:55 AM

View Postnightsniper, on 10 March 2012 - 05:13 AM, said:

So you can start saving up your pennies and ask Mom for her Credit Card number because nothing is free in Life NOTHING.

Unless your looking to run a commando for ever and be the first off the field everygame.


Except that, you know, a lot of good things in life are free. That's the subject of another discussion though. And the last part about the Commando makes no sense since this is not "get money ----> get bigger mechs------> get most powerful guns -----> press button to win" anymore.

Aside from that, thank you Cake Bandit for the video. I'm sure the devs have a way to go in mind for MWO. As long as I get to freely obtain all the elements directly related to the gameplay- mechs, weapons and equipment- and the paid for stuff don't alter the balance of the game, I wouldn't mind consciously paying for extra things like, say, unique parts for your mech to customize its appearance, or buy extra item space that would only make things a bit more convenient but not give me an advantage.

I don't know about the current state of the game (technical problems make me unable to connect to the game), but I started playing Tribes: Ascend a little while after it came out, and I generally didn't have a problem with killing other classes people bought with money or upgraded with skills that were also bought with money. Balance is the keyword here.


edit:

View PostNick Makiaveli, on 10 March 2012 - 05:37 AM, said:

I doubt they will spend millions to develop a game just to steal some money and wind up in jail.


Bioware nearly did it with The Titanic, things like this work fine from the moment you know how to hide behind the law. Fortunately there is a difference between those developers and these ones.

Edited by Thunderwave, 10 March 2012 - 05:58 AM.


#23 nightsniper

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 07:57 AM

Except that, you know, a lot of good things in life are free. That's the subject of another discussion though. And the last part about the Commando makes no sense since this is not "get money ----> get bigger mechs------> get most powerful guns -----> press button to win" anymore.

The Commando reference was a what if related to the way some Free to play games are run. Bigpoint games are a bad example of a free to play micro transaction nightmare. Ask almost anyone who has tried to play Dark Orbit for free. It gets stall very fast when your little more then a target. Upgraded equipment comes out on a regular basis making your current obsolete and you are left with a choice pony up or accept the role of target dummy. They certainly are one end of the spectrum not the only one but their are several better. Game Campus runs several Free to play games and the system is extremely good with an in game economy and chance upgrades through accumulated materials and the option for several non play effecting upgrades. A model I do enjoy.

The overriding issue for all players is are you willing to support a game monetarily and what does it take to pay for development game server farms and support staff as well as continue to update development, in the case proceed with the time line. Like it or not the real dollars and cents here is not cheap. We all would like to think the Internet is free and the debate will go on that is anything truly free. In a capitalistic system for it to work costs can be hidden but everything has a price. Economics 101.

I do not think it is unreasonable to suspect that the developers and their investors have a price target that will produce a profit. If as a community we want this effort to not be a game of the week we should with in reason be willing to support this game beyond having our PC and an Internet connection (hidden cost) we also need to support directly the game.

I am not advocating a Wallet Warrior scenario just the opposite I want a balanced approach, honestly if it is not I won't play for long. I will go back to the board game and wait for someone else to come along. I am just one but look at games with an open eye that boast millions registered and then go in and find you have a 20 minute wait for a game to achieve enough players.

By the way World of tanks is a DOG my unit has 140 players registered less then 10 still play and no one plays clan wars because of Balance and the 7 day schedule that never allows for a break. I won't even venture into the issue of the lack of listening to the players because that does not apply here.

Simple fact there are a lot of bad examples of games that could be great but the economy and systems built were not workable in real time and no simple formula exists for success. Yet nothing will kill a product if no one wants to buy it either upfront or over time. So yes you should expect to pay something for MWO.

#24 Orzorn

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 08:03 AM

This topic continues to show up, and every single time all I have to say is that it will be almost exactly like League of Legends. There is nothing else TO say, and if you've ever experienced the LoL pay model you'd realize that MWO will be just fine. Its a great model and it works very well and does not sell power in any way.

#25 Darkrasp

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 08:25 AM

When I read about how the game worked, I immediately invisioned a system like Vindictus. Missions cost "tokens" to start, you get X number of "tokens" per day, and if you want to play more missions then you have tokens, you have to pay for additional tokens.

I'd be fine with a League of Legends style skins/xp boost/cash boost system as well. If the game is as good as it looks, I'd be willing to fork out some money even just as my thanks to the company.

Edit: I believe in Vindictus there was also the "you can share tokens with friends" deal as well, the bad dog approach alluded to the in the video, but it worked, especially when your friends put in less time then you and didn't need all their tokens.

Edited by Darkrasp, 10 March 2012 - 08:27 AM.


#26 Orzorn

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 08:30 AM

View PostDarkrasp, on 10 March 2012 - 08:25 AM, said:

When I read about how the game worked, I immediately invisioned a system like Vindictus. Missions cost "tokens" to start, you get X number of "tokens" per day, and if you want to play more missions then you have tokens, you have to pay for additional tokens.

God that's awful. Sound like Spiral Knights.

Buying play time is ridiculous and pointless. If they want us to do that, they might as well put in a subscription fee and just leave it at that. You should always encourage your players to play more, even if you don't make any money off it. Because the longer they play, the more they'll think about buying that shiny item in the shop to spruce up their gameplay, or buy that c-bill or xp-boost so they can get to their goals faster. Forcing players to buy play time in order to enjoy the game is counter intuitive to what you would really want players to be spending their money on, that is, on feel-good items and accessories that they'll be coming back time and again to purchase. Making players purchase play time makes them feel cheated more than anything.

#27 Ironheart

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 08:59 AM

View PostOrzorn, on 10 March 2012 - 08:03 AM, said:

This topic continues to show up, and every single time all I have to say is that it will be almost exactly like League of Legends. There is nothing else TO say, and if you've ever experienced the LoL pay model you'd realize that MWO will be just fine. Its a great model and it works very well and does not sell power in any way.


LoL model is not going to work with MWO. It's basically shovel ware every two weeks while not fixing old problems. MWO would have to speed through the Mechwarrior history in order to achieve that.

But it works. So does p2w, and those bad p2w asian minigames.

But we'll see.

#28 Orzorn

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 09:07 AM

View PostIronheart, on 10 March 2012 - 08:59 AM, said:


LoL model is not going to work with MWO. It's basically shovel ware every two weeks while not fixing old problems. MWO would have to speed through the Mechwarrior history in order to achieve that.

Blame Guinsoo. That guy couldn't balance a game to save his life. The design choices they picked made me facepalm very often.

And they would not have to speed through the timeline. Looking at how many mechs have been revealed, and how long we have to go before beta likely hits, we'll probably get 12-16 mechs on release. As you very well know, there's way more mechs than that in the Battletech universe. We could have a mech release very regularly, and it would act much like the champion releases do in LoL to support them financially. You can't tell me that if everyone's favorite mech came out (Say they got the rights to use the unseen), like a Rifleman, that people wouldn't be throwing money at their screens to be able to instantly use those mechs.

However, yes, it is a challenging business model because it requires you to be able to effectively balance that released content. Something LoL seems to have trouble doing, but in that vein, I blame Guinsoo.

#29 GuntherK

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 09:18 AM

View PostGabriel Amarell, on 09 March 2012 - 11:36 PM, said:


I realize pre-beta that nothing is set in stone, I accept that any announcement made at this stage is subject to change, but you (Piranha, the development team) must have a model in place at this time. As things stand today, what will we (the players) be paying for, how much will those things cost, how will payments be made? The idea of “micro-transactions” scares me, I have visions of supplying a credit card number and logging in, playing for a week or two and finding a $200 charge on my credit card because I had “bought” stuff that I didn’t know I was buying. I don’t know much about the F2P model but it worries me. I am willing to open up my wallet and support the games I love, but the idea that an atlas costs “real” money bothers me, what if it gets destroyed, do I need to buy another one? Or re-specing my pilot, I played wow a long time and I must have re-speced 100 times. I am one of those who would frontload everything, pay for let’s say 3 mechwarriors, each with max storage space (for mechs and equipment) and then play for in game money to buy mechs/equipment. Assuming I enjoy the game as much as I am predicting, I would make other purchases to financially support it, but I do not want to pay for things I do every day in game, like re-specing, or changing the loadout on my mech.

The game is set to be released this summer, from the look of it at this point I think that date might even be realistic. You have us hooked, were ready to believe that this is the game we hoped it could be, barring a disastrous beta were ready to put our money where our mouths are isn’t it time to announce, in detail, exactly what will be paid for, how much it will cost, how payments will work.


You worry too much.
Its too early to anounce the financial model to the masses, uninformed forum trolls would start riots yelling "pay to win, pay to win".

Regarding your worries, i recomend you to play "World of Tanks" for free.
You will realize that most of the stuff you can get for free, the stuff you pay for is permanent. Of course you may pay for a premium membership that gives extra credits and experience while playing. Some people use real money to buy game money or crew experience or whatever, but you can get all that for free while playing.

Now about the payments. You decide to spend 50$, you pay that in the game shop with a single credit card transaction on the game shop.
With those 50$ you get that ingame credit. You can buy 3 months premium membership for x$, and its deducted from your ingame credit.
But nobody touches your credit card, when the 50$ run dry, you need to go again to the game shop and make a new transaction.
No fanthom transfers showing up in your credit card.

And forget that idea that you can somehow loose your mech in a battle, there is no perma death, at the end of the battle you pay the repairs and replace the ammo spent and you are ready to go.. and you pay that with in game c-bills you can earn for free while you play the game.

Relax, just play the game for free for a while, see what you like and then uyou can make the informed decision of how much to spend and how and were you spend it. The recurring membership model from "World of Warcraft" would use your credit card to automaticaly renew your membership. Free2Play model doesnt do that. You have to authorise every cent you spend.

#30 Boymonkey

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 09:26 AM

I hope they don't go the token path, that just sounds like free to play for an hour a day and pay to play for the rest of the day.

#31 Tryg

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 09:51 AM

There seem to be a lot of misconceptions about the free to play model. Subscription-games like World of Warcraft are very quickly going out of style. Several of them, not just minor titles, but major ones, have actually shifted from subscription payment settings to a hybrid "subscription for premium but free-to-play" models. These companies wouldn't be making that sort of change if they didn't think their games would still be supported.

The concept can be a little complicated, but here's the general idea. When a new game releases, you can expect a lot of folks to show up to try it out. The percentage of folks you can expect, depends on the price point of the game. (Not everyone can afford to drop $60 and then follow up with $15 a month on a subscription) This limits your player pool to those who can. In a free to play model, you open your player pool up to everyone who has the rig to run the game. Now, you'll lose the income from subscriptions, yes. However, if you put in things like a 'premium' feature that offers more cash/xp, or things of that nature, you'll actually retain a lot of subscribers. Further, people who can't afford $15 a month, but can afford $10 or $5 will drop that kind of money on gear or in-game currency.

And the real money-makers in free-to-play models...fluff pieces, and currency. Fluff items, such as appearance gear that provide no actual in-game value, are addictive for a great many players out there. I'll use Everquest 2's appearance gear as an example. People will shell out tons of money on different outfits just so their character's will look good. The same would work in Mechwarrior (Custom Paint Jobs, the ability to import unit-logo's to display on mechs in-game, I'd bet a large portion of players would be more then willing to dump real cash into having these perks that give no statistic-improving bonus in game.) Currency is another major one, consider the sheer number of companies trying to illegally sell WoW gold. What would happen to that business if suddenly you could legitimately purchase it from the game itself? You'd both be reducing violations of the game's ToS while generating a nice source of income. The ability to purchase C-bills is something I fully expect them to include in their real-cash shop, and lacking any other items, will probably be enough to support the game's operating costs alone.

Further, currency purchases can be added into a game without breaking the game's balance. Using APB as an example, the premium guns that could be acquired with cash can't be acquired through any free-to-play means (unless they've drastically changed something from last time I played) which meant paying players had advantages over those who didn't. With currency transactions, players with less time have access to the same gear as players with a lot of time invested...but are still ultimately at the disadvantage. As the developers have stated, in the end, someone who played for months to fully tweak out their mech, and someone who paid to do it in less time, go head to head, the advantage is in the court of the person who played for months, why? He/She has more skill, and all gear being equal, skill becomes the deciding factor.

Again, we're not likely to see cost breakdowns till right about release time, but the whole doom and gloom attitude people have about free-to-play as a sustainable cost-model really is unfounded. The model is proven to work, especially if care is taken to balance just what micro-transaction customers gain in benefit for their money.

#32 Wyzak

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 09:55 AM

I doubt you will ever have to pay real money to drop into combat, but you might volunteer to pay real money for rare mechs, rare pilot skills, paint jobs, decals, fire support, exclusive maps, merc vs house plot lines, Solaris registrations, Comstar FTL services, Jumpship travel, dropship upgrades...

#33 GuntherK

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 10:02 AM

View PostWyzak, on 10 March 2012 - 09:55 AM, said:

I doubt you will ever have to pay real money to drop into combat, but you might volunteer to pay real money for rare mechs, rare pilot skills, paint jobs, decals, fire support, exclusive maps, merc vs house plot lines, Solaris registrations, Comstar FTL services, Jumpship travel, dropship upgrades...


Hula girls..

#34 Cake Bandit

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 10:09 AM

View PostWyzak, on 10 March 2012 - 09:55 AM, said:

I doubt you will ever have to pay real money to drop into combat, but you might volunteer to pay real money for rare mechs, rare pilot skills, paint jobs, decals, fire support, exclusive maps, merc vs house plot lines, Solaris registrations, Comstar FTL services, Jumpship travel, dropship upgrades...

I think they've said that all pilots will learn all skills, so that's probably out. What they'll probably sell is expedience. They aren't going to sell you anything special, just the means to get to things more easily. Probably just buying C-Bills.

Though I would probably pay cash to be part of the greater world plot.

#35 Bryan Ekman

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 10:12 AM

Details about the F2P model will come to light in the next few months. We want to get into beta, test and tune our ideas, before unleashing them to the public. Suffice it to say, we're not in the nickle and dime business. You will never get a surprise CC bill at the end of the month. Every puchase you make will be a conscious and clear decision. We're very happy and excited about the model we've designed, because it caters to a wide range of players and values, and uses a "carrot, not stick" approach.

#36 Snowflake Muffin

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 10:16 AM

View PostOrzorn, on 10 March 2012 - 08:03 AM, said:

This topic continues to show up, and every single time all I have to say is that it will be almost exactly like League of Legends. There is nothing else TO say, and if you've ever experienced the LoL pay model you'd realize that MWO will be just fine. Its a great model and it works very well and does not sell power in any way.


I'm glad someone finally mentioned this model. I have played LoL and in no way did I feel underpowered in a game when someone else had a paid for something. The fact that everything can be bought with real money or in game money made it really just a matter of how valuable is your time to you. as well as if you want to compete in the highly competitive ranked matches you may want to invest in some extra ruin pages. But in more casual games, no way did I ever feel like someone had an unfair advantage because they had invested more money into the game. Sure they may have had a larger variety of champions (in this case it would be mechs) to choose from but you would still only be able to pilot one at a time.
Like it was mentioned in a recent interview/gameplay video, content such as skins will be sold in microtransactions and it is ultimately a test of skill on the battlefield not how much money you throw at the game. But if you do put more money into it you can progress faster in the game than your nonpaying friend. Maybe leveling faster or having an expanded mechbay etc... as long as the non-paying players are not discouraged from feeling like there is a large, definitive gap between them and the players that pay, you should have a solid growing player base with more chances of them paying without feeling forced to :P

#37 cyberFluke

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 11:51 AM

Steam Launch, there's something I hope they're looking at... Not sure on the specifics of releasing a product on steam, but I know it's possible for something that runs it's own patcher/launcher, City of Heroes did it for example. It would get the game a chunk more exposure, always a good thing.

#38 Kaemon

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 12:13 PM

Holy lord, did this thread just come out of a time warp?

Look around a bit on the forums folks, please (maybe read a thread a two).

Rinse.Repeat....

#39 billyzero

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 12:23 PM

Have faith. World of Tanks is doing just fine and they aren't screwing over people with hidden micro-transaction fees. I honestly believe the devs care about this game and they aren't going to scuttle it by devising a payment system that doesn't make sense.

#40 Karyudo ds

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 12:41 PM

View PostGabriel Amarell, on 09 March 2012 - 11:36 PM, said:

The idea of “micro-transactions” scares me, I have visions of supplying a credit card number and logging in, playing for a week or two and finding a $200 charge on my credit card because I had “bought” stuff that I didn’t know I was buying. I don’t know much about the F2P model but it worries me.


Yeah as pointed out maybe you should actually look up what a real F2P model actually is before freaking out over it to much. Recommended reading would be Tribes Ascend, there is literally no way you would ever find a surprise $200 charge. You can buy boost packs in $10, $20, etc, increments that let you get more XP and buy things faster. You would go in, buy a pack and you would spend the pack on things in game, but they don't automatically buy more and run up charges when you're out, you just buy another one. Of course you never have to buy anything to play or have fun. I've unlocked most of the classes without paying anything (though I only play a couple often).

Point is you get more people to play because you can be playing against anyone just casually trying to game as it costs NOTHING to get into and most of the good ones cost nothing period unless you feel like it. Tribes is a great example of that as I could play the game till it's gone and never pay a thing so nothing to worry about. No F2P title can live off of making you pay real money for minor everyday transactions or the points for them. You should be able to say, throw down $10 or $20 or $50 and never HAVE to spend money again if you want, otherwise it's basically a subscription game and not F2P...granted there are bad F2P games out there, but I haven't run into many that don't give you a big chunk of the game before asking questions and hide charges.

Though I agree, I'd like to know what will be on that list of real money items but I would guess mostly just shortcuts and vanity items you wont absolutely need to play. I'm hoping that for instance you wouldn't have to buy mech storage space with real money, but if it were possible that the free space would be enough to play.

View PostKaemon, on 10 March 2012 - 12:13 PM, said:

Holy lord, did this thread just come out of a time warp?

Look around a bit on the forums folks, please (maybe read a thread a two).

Rinse.Repeat....


There's a lot of that too, not just on this topic but everyone we don't have pretty pictures to explain.





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