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First day impressions from old MW player


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#1 Brae

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 12:22 AM

So I've played a lot of the Mechwarrior video games going all the way back to the first computer game in the late 80s. I like the look and feel of the combat, very reminiscent of the previous mechwarrior titles.

Things I didn't like:

* matching algorithm, seems awful. Especially when you get a "team" playing vs a random group.

* the 4 trial mechs are under powered *especially* when you consider that there will be novices in them. These seems like you get into a "rich get richer" scheme where existing players get to pound on the newbies for a while. Every game I've seen that takes that approach ends up with a very small bunch of experienced players wondering why no one wants to play any more.

* initial funds comes very slow when you're in a trial mech.

What I think the game needs is more of an investment hook. It needs to right off the bat get players fascinated with the game. What I'd recommend is letting players start with crazy good mechs for their first few games, and then progressively make them STRONGER. Until finally they've "risen through the ranks" of their employer so much he rewards them with a mech of their own and some starting cash and sends them on their way.

New players will not be as much of a walkover, they'll actually get to fight a bit, they'll experience a variety of mechs, and then finally they'll have their own mech and suddenly will have an emotional attachment to the game that will draw them in.

That phrase "first ones free" is repeated often because it's accurate. You could also look at it from the razor blade analogy. Give them a razor to own and cherish and they'll start buying the blades for it. They'll never get there though if they try a few games in a crappy mech, get destroyed and feel like they've learned nothing.

Anyway. that's my thoughts from day 1.

-Michael

#2 machine

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 12:29 AM

Fully agree. PGI this is probably your most important fix needed now not later and it is too easy to do.

5 million seems very reasonable. When you give new MechWarriors a 5 million C-Bill start, they can choose to continue in trials and save, or to buy now save later. It allows the Mechlab and customization to be exposed to the masses.

#3 Zelator

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 12:48 AM

I dont agree with giving new players their own mechs or C-bills. My reasoning being that they will probably waste the c-bills or screw up their mech in some other way, I know I did. I have founders and every time I started again during resets I spent most of my MC on stuff I just ended up selling again and basically ended up with 0 at the end of day 1. I think the current system is workable. There is no way to make bad decisions and waste initial capital at the moment.

4 trial mechs to play around in from the get go is decent in my opinion, and I do not care what anyone says I do not feel they are underpowered, they all have their uses and can consistently contribute in games. As a PUG only player I do not regret it when half my team is in trial mechs.

I do not think new players should be given the option to customise a mech right from the start, I feel the learning curve is steep enough as it is trying to get used to the unusual control mechanics and dumping a newbie with excessive choices and information is counter-productive.

(Full time beta tester here, around 3-5 games a year, so I have a good idea about new player experience, user-friendlieness etc)

Edited by Zelator, 30 October 2012 - 12:52 AM.


#4 Apoc1138

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 01:40 AM

trial mechs are balanced, which means if you encounter a custom mech 1 on 1 in it's preferred territory (e.g. close range for a brawler, long range for a sniper or LRM boat) then you are going to get torn to pieces

with trial mechs you want to soften them up with long range weapons first, then concentrate fire on a weakened target to finish them off if they get closer

teamwork is the most important factor, even if you don't have voice comms, stick together with other mechs and fire at the same target as they do, that target will die quicker with concentrated fire on it

matchmaking is a known issue and is being worked on - phase 3 of the planned changes will bring in a skill / time served type calculation so that new players are only fighting against other new players until they find their feet, which will help enormously with the roflstomping that tends to happen when experienced players meet new players at the moment

Edited by Apoc1138, 30 October 2012 - 01:42 AM.


#5 Melcyna

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 01:47 AM

Like so
Posted Image

that's using the trial Centurion

The basic pattern is VERY SIMPLE:

maintain range at 500m or so at the start (you have a full LRM ammo at your bay DO NOT ENGAGE in close quarter with full ammo in your torso unless you enjoy exploding like a firecracker).
stay with your team
do NOT leave nearby cover unless ur certain u can reach the next and always make sure there's an escape path nearby

use your LRM and large laser during the initial phase of the skirmish

EXPEND THE LRM, but do so as efficiently as possible

do not waste LRM shot on someone behind a tall building that will block the LRM, and do not waste LRM on someone that is about to go over the ridge and thus lose target info (LRM do not home when lock is lost).

once LRM is expended, you can take any risk you want since the LRM ammo is the ONLY THING in the trial centurion that prevents you from fighting in close quarter and lasting some time in close quarter battle effectively.

Generally it'd be good to close the distance to make the best use of the centurion's med laser effectively, but avoid custom mech armed with nothing but SRM, streak or pulse lasers unless if they have been softened up.
Spoiler

Edited by Melcyna, 30 October 2012 - 01:55 AM.


#6 NovaWasp

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 03:27 AM

The stock raven is also quite good against missile boats. I just took down a catapult at close range because it's LRMs were useless. Large Laser does 9 damage and the two Mediums 5 each plus 15 from the SRMs. That's a pretty good punch under 270 meters. New players need to play for a while in each of the mechs to get an idea what they like to pilot. The trials are completely viable and a team of trials 2 of each type with voice coms would be competitive as they would have 2160 missiles and two pretty tough scouts. Lack of coms is what takes out most pugs v. Teams. That and not reading or pressing R. missiles are useless without a lock. I'm impressed that the servers themselves didn't just panic with the influx. I haven't had any problems in match.

#7 Boswelli

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 03:44 AM

View PostZelator, on 30 October 2012 - 12:48 AM, said:

(Full time beta tester here, around 3-5 games a year, so I have a good idea about new player experience, user-friendlieness etc)


Your so-called experience is useless here because your view is blinded by this (stupid?) early investment you made! You got not payed by PGI for beta testing, you payed THEM to let you play early, and now you may think, hey, wtf should a new player get almost the same starting position than me for FREE? So you will defend and protect your spending at all cost, even if that means to bring forward some selfish arguments. Is that clever? Or more stupid on long term basis? Decide by yourself but if PGI wents into bankruptcy because of a lack of new players and fresh money, you will loose your whole investment! Don't expect to get a refund than lol

#8 Melcyna

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 03:45 AM

The amount of ppl with custom mech with poor design in the game is ASTOUNDING...

like i've met against Atlas with LRM20s and LRM15s

and armed with a SINGLE large laser as the only sole direct fire weapon it has.... my cent weaved across the city among the buildings and closed up on him and just tear him apart solo.

at least on Catapult i can understand that they might have just recently bought the mech stock armed with little direct fire weapon if any at all... but that Atlas for example was OBVIOUSLY custom designed on purpose.

#9 Kmieciu

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 04:12 AM

Trial mechs should be pitted only against other Trial mechs.

#10 Redoxin

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 04:18 AM

I am doing really well with the trial Awesome. Often 500+ damage per game.
On top of that you have to pay for missiles with owned mechs, while they are for free with trial mechs.


An organised group with trial mechs will beat a average PUG with fully fitted owned mechs most of the time.

I agree on match making being a problem btw, the trial mechs are not.

Edited by Redoxin, 30 October 2012 - 04:26 AM.


#11 Shalune

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 04:29 AM

View PostZelator, on 30 October 2012 - 12:48 AM, said:

I dont agree with giving new players their own mechs or C-bills. My reasoning being that they will probably waste the c-bills or screw up their mech in some other way, I know I did.

This may sound elitist to some, but this is actually a really good point. I've seen this exact thing happen in MMOs enough where players are offered permanent choices on the direction of their play before they understand the choice they're making.

A compromise might be something you could build into the intended tutorial program - I think I remember seeing this mentioned. Maybe after going through some basic tutorials you are given an assignment to play each weight class of trial mech 5-10 times. At the end of this you could get a one-time reward of a couple million c-bills. In addition to the money you earn naturally during that time this could be set up to be enough to get a medium to heavy mech with a clear warning that if the player preferred the Assault play style they may want to wait a bit longer and save for that.

This way it forces the player to get a basic feel for each play style before committing. I agree with your price point around 5 million too. While this does somewhat discourage going straight to assault I think that's a good thing given the common preconception that bigger will be better. This will also make more sense once the Cataphract is in so that there's a good heavy slugger in game instead of the current choice of hunchback or assault.

Welcome to the game and hope you stick around. Keep in mind a lot of things are still in flux. I have my annoyances too, but on the whole I love where things are going.

#12 JudgeDeathCZ

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 04:30 AM

View PostKmieciu, on 30 October 2012 - 04:12 AM, said:

Trial mechs should be pitted only against other Trial mechs.

Total B.S.
I play trial awesome against customs and usually ending with 500+ dmg 1-2 kills and at least 4 assists.

#13 Mike McSullivan

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 04:36 AM

At first: Welcome to MWO!
Second: MWO is tough! so stay courageos, ignore loose-streaks in the beginning, try to learn (the learning curve is loooong) to handle these big robots better :)
third:-here come the thing where choices have to be made- enter the official teamspeak server. the most guys (and a few girls) in there are very helpful and respectful. This will raise your experience+fun by factor 5 ;)
fourth: -another decision- if you like what you see, open your wallet and buy the mech you like. The prices are from 680 credits to 5480,thats something between 4 and 25$. as a single investment you have then the free configuration mode and additional CBill income. ok it depends-the bigger mechs cost more in repairs, so be warned! another example: for the 3000MC(14,95$) package you could buy 2 different Hunchbacks at once!

cya on the battlefield
Mike

#14 Kmieciu

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 04:46 AM

Why would someone pay for a game that`s unfun, just to make it less unfun? It`s ridiculous.
You can download "Bad Piggies" from the creators of Angry Birds and have great time for free! And then pay a couple of buck to get more levels if you like it enough.
If I were not a die-hard Mechwarrior veteran I would not spend a dime on MWO.

#15 Melcyna

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 05:29 AM

You don't, or at least you don't pay a dime if you don't want to...

nor do you need to... because the Trial mech are quite capable of holding it's own ground and knocking other mech custom or not if they know how to use it and can attain sufficient Cbills to purchase an owned mech in a few hours worth of gameplay (even without premium).

The problem with that? knowing how to use one of the Trial mech effectively.

In the game right now there's hardly any information, most of which is given in the website here and even then the information is sparse from the official source. Nor is there any way for the new players to practice and get some idea on how to fight or use the mech effectively without being vaporized by other players.

And these new players face right against veteran beta players that already know the game inside out... their chance of success is effectively minimal no matter how you spin it because the veteran players in all likelihood knows the map, knows the mech, the weapons capability, and at least some knows how to use Trial mech effectively.

What we need... is some way to let the players test things around without having to enter a competitive match against other players. And more in game info database to tell players crucial information without having to scour the website for it and getting killed in the field repeatedly just to get a hang of what sensible action they should take.

Edited by Melcyna, 30 October 2012 - 05:35 AM.


#16 Dark Severance

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 05:41 AM

View PostBrae, on 30 October 2012 - 12:22 AM, said:

* matching algorithm, seems awful. Especially when you get a "team" playing vs a random group.
This is a known issue. As a solo player though there are ways to work around that as well as working with a PUG, without needing to communicate. Most things are obvious but a lot of solo players assume since they are in a PUG they are alone and go off alone. That doesn't mean you should count on your team mate necessarily to watch your back, but it does become easier if you watch theirs, focusing fire and understand where your team is instead of going off alone and trying to COD things.

This however falls into match making a well known issue, although not as bad as many people seem to think as I've done many test weeks of nothing but grouping as well as PUGing and compared wins/losses. However this will be adjusted as time progresses. This isn't like a standard game where development has now stopped.

View PostBrae, on 30 October 2012 - 12:22 AM, said:

* the 4 trial mechs are under powered *especially* when you consider that there will be novices in them. These seems like you get into a "rich get richer" scheme where existing players get to pound on the newbies for a while. Every game I've seen that takes that approach ends up with a very small bunch of experienced players wondering why no one wants to play any more.
Not sure how it would be considered a rich get richer scheme. Unless the new player is just standing there and isn't firing back, the veteran player still has repair costs, ammo, etc to pay while the Trial Mech has neither ammo or repair costs to pay. Everything a Trial Mech pilot makes is profit compared to a regular pilot who may or may not make a profit depending on their mech loadout.

This also fits into match making which is a known issue and will be addressed moving forward. It will take some time to adjust it as it will be going through many phases.


View PostBrae, on 30 October 2012 - 12:22 AM, said:

* initial funds comes very slow when you're in a trial mech.

What I think the game needs is more of an investment hook. It needs to right off the bat get players fascinated with the game. What I'd recommend is letting players start with crazy good mechs for their first few games, and then progressively make them STRONGER. Until finally they've "risen through the ranks" of their employer so much he rewards them with a mech of their own and some starting cash and sends them on their way.
Initial funds coming slow (in a trial mech) is working as intended. The game is free to play. If you want to trade convenience and time then dropping $10 isn't a lot to ask to get your start with your "crazy good mech". Although there really isn't such a thing as a crazy good mech, strength is dependant on skill, knowledge of the game, team work and is subjective to the user (ie: I'd take 8 trail Jenner pilots vs 8 Atlas pilots any day of the week (Jenner > Atlas)).

View PostBrae, on 30 October 2012 - 12:22 AM, said:

New players will not be as much of a walkover, they'll actually get to fight a bit, they'll experience a variety of mechs, and then finally they'll have their own mech and suddenly will have an emotional attachment to the game that will draw them in.
New players will always be a walkover, otherwise they wouldn't be 'new players'. They either get better or trudge through things. That is also the point of double armor in the game. Unlike previous mech warrior games, a new player would be dead in the first pass of a group of mechs focusing fire. Even in a light mech a new player taking barrages from multiple mechs will usually still be moving.

View PostBrae, on 30 October 2012 - 12:22 AM, said:

That phrase "first ones free" is repeated often because it's accurate. You could also look at it from the razor blade analogy. Give them a razor to own and cherish and they'll start buying the blades for it. They'll never get there though if they try a few games in a crappy mech, get destroyed and feel like they've learned nothing.
I don't believe "first ones free" holds real value in this type of game at all. Although I do believe everyone should get a choice of one of the main 4 mechs as their own mech. It will still be a base model, which means on par with a Trial Mech but it is their own. However first ones free doesn't really hold much value because a lot of pilots tend to pick 1-2 mechs and that is all they will pilot for months. Until more team objectives and the meta game happens, there isn't a real need to have to get multiple mechs after you've bought it and equipped it. And it only takes a few days to a couple weeks to be geared essentially.

#17 Elyam

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 07:29 AM

The trial mechs are good, balanced designs for training. As matchmaking is tuned the initial player experience will be improving.

#18 SmoothCriminal

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 07:44 AM

PGI just need to have more information/training available for novices piloting the trials - as people have said they're not bad at all.

Trial Raven can dish out a crap ton of damage very quickly
Trial centurion - see above for a fantastic guide
Trial dragon 80 kph and an AC5 will ruin any long range mech's day
Trial awesome has 2 x LRM 15 - giving it the same missile firepower as a stock catapult (if not the ammo)... plus 2 LLs!!

It's a steep learning curve, but then MW games have always been that. When I was a kid I played MW4 with Godmode, no heat and infinite ammo just because of that (i was about 10).

#19 RumRunner151

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 08:06 AM

Thanks for the constructive feedback. The devs are very appreciative of it. I want to emphasize a few things.
1) Matchmaking is currently being worked on. It will go through a series of changes over the next moth or two that will be a step backwards then a couple forwards until their ranking system is in place. The next step if to limit groups to 4, so you can have 8 grouped players wiping uncoordinated and new players. Then the will implement 8v8 group vs group, and then implement a ranking system. to more evenly match players based on mech and ability. Also keep in mind that even when its 8 ungrouped vs the same, if one side gets a couple early kills, it can easily end up 7-1 or 8-0, even though many people think they played a coordinated team when they get rolled like that.
2) Trial mechs are a constant complaint. IMO they are terrible for new players. The devs want to use canon builds. I think they should be simplified so you are not making a newbie deal with multiple weapons and heat. The Light should be Energy only. The medium should have maybe 1 ballistic weapon and an SRM6. The heavy Should have LRMS. The Assault should be maybe 1 balistic and some lasers. Keep everything either arm or torso mounted. None can overheat. Keep them simple, not canon.
3) Keep in mind the free to play model. The devs need to make $$ somehow. If they give mechs and cbills too easy there is no point in spending $$. If they make it too hard, they alienate customers and get no $$. Its a fine line and I would expect it to continue to shift a bit her in open beta.

Again thanks for constructive feedback and I hope you enjoy the game.

GL/HF

#20 CobaltFire

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 08:34 AM

I would have to say that as a PUG I've been doing fine, about a 50% Win Ratio and a 3:1 kill score right now. I am a Founder, but the majority of my team is not. What has been making the difference has been coordination. I'm not afraid to "Take Command", both in the game sense and in the real sense, and ask everyone to stick together, focus fire, and not break ranks to chase mechs.

Notably, the newer players do MUCH better at this than the older players. It also helps immensely if the person attempting to take command is experienced at doing so, polite, and doesn't freak out when someone doesn't play along (it almost always happens).

I try to make those games into a primer for the mechs: "Lets have a good time, and stick together! Please don't chase the enemy, as you will just become a target all alone." "Ok guys, hold here and we will begin calling tagets for LRM fire to soften them up." "Looks like they are advancing, lets regroup a little and begin directed fire. Start on Target Beta." "Beta down, call a target if you've got a good one, prioritize the assualts and Hunchbacks."

My score is usually lower, as I am in the b interface throwing down way points, patrolling to keep others off the trial Awesome's back (Hunch), and trying to give direction. We do win reasonably often though, and everyone seems happy at the end. I know at least twice the other team has complimented my team and I've been thanked profusely for the general direction, as it was several people's first win.





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