64 replies to this topic

[El Death Smurf]

Lavrenti, on 02 November 2012 - 08:48 PM, said:

Can't really be called a tree, because there are no branches - you just have to tick all the boxes in it.

bamboo is a tree... and it grows without any real branches. just saying.

[Goose Igaly]

El Death....I see what you did there.

[Purlana]

El Death Smurf, on 09 November 2012 - 08:33 AM, said:

bamboo is a tree... and it grows without any real branches. just saying.

Bamboo is a grass, not a tree...

[Karl Marlow]

So are you posting this exact same thread in every forum? Allow me to reiterate.

I think the system does make sense as is. If I want to master piloting a Hunchback I should be familiar with all of its designs

As for the more meta reasons of it being a time sink I guess I just don't have a problem with that either. Welcome to the world of MMO's. Pull up a chair, Tell the family to not bother you for the next 8 hours and have your Credit card standing by. The time sinks are only going to get longer from here.

[Havyek]

Inconspicuous, on 02 November 2012 - 08:54 PM, said:

The game is not really set up for multiple pilots on one account so specialization would mean we have to make multiple accounts to grind different skilled pilots. I would not like that.

Lavrenti, on 02 November 2012 - 08:57 PM, said:

Then how about you have slots for skills you've earned? There would be more skills than slots, and in the Pilot Lab you choose which skills you'll equip. So you can still level up in whatever you want but can't just take them all for every match.

I think I've seen similar topics to this.

Here's what I can picture the pilot "tree" would look like.
All trees are chassis specific. What I mean is that if you really like the Cat-C1, you buy it twice. Now you have 2 of them. Let's call them C1A and C1B.

C1A is set up like a SSRM boat, C1B is a LRM5 boat.

So C1A you have picked up some stuff that improves your close range mobility, torso twist speed, convergence etc.
C1B you have some skills that improve lock on time for LRMs, increase JJ duration, maybe another one to improve zoom.

The point is that you have choices. You can configure your chassis to be a sniper, LRM support, laser boat etc etc.

This would make the 'Mech tree an actual TREE, with CHOICES. Not just the mindless "play them all until all the buttons are checked" which it is now.

[MacKoga]

There are some good ideas in this thread. Does this need to exist in the Suggestions area for the Devs to see them?

[Karl Marlow]

MacKoga, on 09 November 2012 - 08:44 AM, said:

There are some good ideas in this thread. Does this need to exist in the Suggestions area for the Devs to see them?

It already does. This is a repost.

[Devils Advocate]

Pretty sure this is somewhere around where they want it to be. Of course it's a grindy system, this is a free to play game. In theory it should take you weeks to max out the tree in a single mech chasis and that's the way it should be in a free to play. I don't mind the idea of branching paths except that they run counter to the variant system that's in place right now, and that system isn't ever going to change. Why would I pick anything that runs counter to the specific variant I'm unlocking skills for? If I'm running a fast mech top speed upgrade makes more sense than acceleration, and in a slow mech the reverse is true. There's not much room for varied playstyle in a specific variant and that's why we have multiple variants. Your approach favors a one chasis fits all approach where we can load out any chasis with anything and then use skills to focus our playstyles.

Actually right now I think the system needs more grinding in it. Unlocking elite status in a chasis immediately upgrades all previous upgrades to double efficiency and that's silly, we should have to unlock them again to double them.

Edited by Devils Advocate, 09 November 2012 - 08:46 AM.

[Goose Igaly]

Devils Advocate, on 09 November 2012 - 08:46 AM, said:

Pretty sure this is somewhere around where they want it to be. Of course it's a grindy system, this is a free to play game. In theory it should take you weeks to max out the tree in a single mech chasis and that's the way it should be in a free to play. I don't mind the idea of branching paths except that they run counter to the variant system that's in place right now, and that system isn't ever going to change. Why would I pick anything that runs counter to the specific variant I'm unlocking skills for? If I'm running a fast mech top speed upgrade makes more sense than acceleration, and in a slow mech the reverse is true. There's not much room for varied playstyle in a specific variant and that's why we have multiple variants. Your approach favors a one chasis fits all approach where we can load out any chasis with anything and then use skills to focus our playstyles.

Actually right now I think the system needs more grinding in it. Unlocking elite status in a chasis immediately upgrades all previous upgrades to double efficiency and that's silly, we should have to unlock them again to double them.

^

Though not so sure about reunlocking the basics again. Don't really have a problem with it being doubled once all 3 are complete.

[chipps101]

I agree that the current having to have 3 mechs of the same type to unlock the elite and master skills is silly.

Perhaps if they would increase the xp cost of the elite and master skills and offer a discount if you happen to like those mechs and have more than 1 of that type in your mech bay would be a better solution.

Edited by chipps101, 09 November 2012 - 08:56 AM.

[MaddMaxx]

The issue here is 2 fold.

1st.

You have to have 3 Chassis Variants online to get Master. You can modify (MechLab), what is an otherwise different chassis, to be just like the one you already own. Then you have to regrind the same set of Perks again.

So I Buy a Mech, Spend to modify it the way I want, then run Basic. I then have to Buy another variant, then Spend to modify it until it almost mirrors the first ( a choice for sure but the usual outcome), then run Basic. One more time to get the set, then run them again to achieve Expert and then Spend for Master. Are we seeing a trend perhaps?

Yup!. It seems like a lot of Time and C-Bills (Grind) have to be invested to get that 1 Chassis, per weight class, you really want @ Master. Good or Bad thing? Subjective at best.
Bottom line. Zero RL dollars required.

2nd.

Repeat the above scenario again, but this time just Buy the 2nd and 3rd variants required while playing the one modified Chassis you modified (Spent) that you want to play all the time and use the XP -> GXP conversion tool that is available and apply it to the other variants to get to Master.

Yup!. It seems like the same amount of Time (Grind) but way less C-Bills have to be invested to get that 1 Chassis, per weight class, that you really want @ Master. Good or Bad thing? Subjective at best.

Bottom Line? It will require the use of RL dollars (buying MC) to convert.

So the question to ask might be. What is the best of the 2. Buy one, Spend to modify, Buy 2 more and Spend to modify and drive all 3, OR Buy one, modify and then Buy 2 more (sans modify) while driving the favorite and use the conversion tool?

The Trees will be overhauled but the actual 3 tier system will likely survive. It will simply come down to how a player will want to handle it. Free time or spare RL Cash. That is the F2P model in a nutshell. That fact that many don't like having only one other choice when one of the 2 available is not considered suitable (leaving only the other) but that is unavoidable as providing enough solution to please everyone is not viable. (insert pertinent adage here)

Even the Founders, with the MC bonuses in their banks will have to face the same issues. The only difference is it will just take longer for them to get to the same point on that decision making tree. The MC will run out! If someone says they just won't spend it, then why in the hell did they buy in for it in the first place?

Edited by MaddMaxx, 09 November 2012 - 10:22 AM.

[Draco Argentum]

MaddMaxx, on 09 November 2012 - 10:17 AM, said:

So the question to ask might be. What is the best of the 2. Buy one, Spend to modify, Buy 2 more and Spend to modify and drive all 3, OR Buy one, modify and then Buy 2 more (sans modify) while driving the favorite and use the conversion tool?

This will work initially. But in 6-12 months poeople will have several chassis mastered and won't like either of those options. Both represent quite an investment. The problem is the return gets less and less valable as yo have more mastered mechs. Each additional one is less useful because you won't be able to pilot them all.

They can counter this two ways. First they can start adding more and more powerful mechs so that people have to upgrade to the latest. Second they can drop the forced three variant system to redce the required investment.

See my sig for more details and a poll about the mech xp system. Or you can check out my solution here.

[The Velociraptor]

Sorho, on 09 November 2012 - 07:54 AM, said:

I can only agree with this post, having to buy and fill out xp slots for 3 different variants just to get to the elite tier is neither fun nor justified, it is merely a mechanism to increase grind and make spending cash on standard mechs and bay unlocks more appealing.

I'm all for PGI making money, but this just strikes me as something that will drive people away rather than hook them in.

You've read in my mind !

[gregsolidus]

http://mwomercs.com/...wn/page__st__60

[Hellcat420]

Goose Igaly, on 09 November 2012 - 07:56 AM, said:

I am new to the Mech Warrior world. Got into the Closed Beta as my first experience with the game, along with 4 other buddies with similar experience. As far as Clan Tech, I suppose it's possible that we'd have to grind through that as well. But I do feel that the grind is needed. I'm a big player of another MMO (*cough* i'm a restoration druid *cough*) and understand that grinds are necessary. Imagine if everyone could max their stuff in too short a time; what would be the point of playing? More kills? More Wins? I can dig it, but what's the big goal on the horizon? I'm stepping a bit out of the mech tree when speaking of goals on the horizon, looking forward to a new engine, a new weapon loadout, risk of investing to test a loadout to have it succeed or fail.

All in all, the grind times aren't bad, though. On any given match I win I pull in anywhere between 800 and 1300 experience. I run with a group, so we win far more often than we lose. Been playing hard for the past week and am closing in on the final Elite unlocks on my third Atlas varient.

the point of playing is supposed to be to have fun. the goals on teh horizon is new tech(which is pretty expensive). the goal shouldnt be having to buy 2 mechs you dont want and be forced to use them(having to buy and use stuff you dont want is never fun).

[Dracol]

I agree with PGI with the concept. If you want to be good with a varient, you unlock the one tier for it. If you want to master the chassis, well then you find yourself running other varients.

What I wish PGI would change is the fact every single varient on every single chassis has the exact same bonuses.

That fact my one cicada varient gets a bonus to arm speed when it has zero hard points in the arms really examplifies the issue.

If they varied the bonuses between varients, it would really add needed depth to the chassis skills IMHO.

[The Velociraptor]

Dracol, on 09 November 2012 - 07:42 PM, said:

What I wish PGI would change is the fact every single varient on every single chassis has the exact same bonuses.

That fact my one cicada varient gets a bonus to arm speed when it has zero hard points in the arms really examplifies the issue.

That's one hell of a good point ! lol

[Kauhava]

I probably won't ever get Elite skills on any mechs with the current system.

[Hexcaliber]

The skill lists we have at the moment are partial; if you read the dev blogs and the plans for role warfare, there should be a lot more to come. The current xp grind may well make a lot more sense once everything is in place, either way, it is a little too early to judge how it will all pan out.

However, this is just another reason calling this a live product, but open beta, is insulting at best. Mech's you purchase and grind out the skills for now, could well be earmarked for a role you have no interest in; potentially wiping out your time and any MC investment's made along the way to completing the grind for that chassis.

[Lauranis]

remember that the sort of customisation you seek is inherent in the Pilot tree rather than the Mech tree and is expressed through the module system (which we are awaiting the expansion of). As is we have a small variety of modules, improved targeting, advanced zoom and capture accelerator. Over time this will expand, perhaps allowing for such things as improved jump jet efficiency, a better C3 type system, better turning speed and so on. These will of course be limited by the module slots, forcing the sort of choices that you seem to desire.

Yes the Mech Exp system is a bit laborious, It is intended to represent familiarity with a variant (for basic level traits), a chassis (for elite level traits) and a weight class (for master level traits).

I am currently working on getting my basic level skills for my third Atlas variant (and let me tell you when you factor in customising several Atlas Variants the prices sky rocket, I have probably spent 50 million cbills on this process) soon I will have them all to elite (due to saved experience from Cbill grinding for the next chassis). Once the Atlases are complete I will be working on Awesomes, starting with the 9M. I am intent on mastering every Assault class chassis as it comes into the game you see so I am at the worst end of this particular scale, requiring tens of millions of cbills per variant.

I am gaining more experience than I need for the basic skills by the time I have grinded enough cbills to get the next variant, but that experience will all be spent instantly once I roll over into the elite skills. Certainly for lower weight class variants the opposite will be true, grinding out the cbills for another commando (taking the extreme opposite end of the scale) will certainly take less time than grinding the exp for basic skills.

go back and take a look at the role warfare dev blogs here:

http://mwomercs.com/...3-role-warfare/

and here:

http://mwomercs.com/...e-warfare-cont/

and look at the target concept for the experience system, look at the things they talked about putting in then, and what is in now. many of the things they talk about have gone into the mech experience system, but the potential for customisation and specialisation of purpose is still there in the fledgling pilot experience system. There is definitely a lot of mileage in it potential, it just depends on how hard you are willing to work for the benefits it grants, imagine a pair of AS7-K's using direct fire support builds, both sporting twin AMS and the "increased range on AMS" modules to create a massive umbrella of missile protection for their team. Or a commando or two sporting base cap speed increase modules punishing poor positioning of the enemy team by capping objectives ultra-fast. The Pilot exp tree is what provides these options, not the Mech exp tree.

TLDR: The mech exp system isn't intended to provide customisation and "uniqueness". The Pilot experience system is.