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Engines, Internals and Heatsinks, oh my.


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#41 Xaks

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 02:23 PM

View Postguardiandashi, on 22 April 2012 - 07:13 AM, said:

regarding endosteel "upgrades" under the current rules set for "upgrades" endosteel upgrades, and changing engine TYPE not rating is a factory refit that requires access to a factory capable of building the TYPE of unit not specific model.

what this means is if I want to change a dragon from using a 300std engine to a 360 xl (one of the actual dragon upgrades) I don;t need to be at the luthian armor works factory that makes dragons I just need to be at a facility that makes battlemechs.

in previous rules sets (mercenarys handbook 3055) you could order a "refit kit" that would have all the instructions and parts to upgrade ANYTHING you wanted you just had to pay for it, and there was a markup for the more elaborate refit kits. a kit that replaced weapons and or heatsinks for example might have been 5% over cost, (still need labor) a refit kit that was what is now considered maintance level (intermediate refit) was like 25% over cost and the "anything goes refit" was 40% over cost of the parts

in the new rules you have field, essentually weapons, electronics, and add additional armor are valid, maintenance changing heat sink TYPE, adding or removing heat sinks, and changing engine SIZE but not type

Factory changing anything else that is not allowed under a lesser refit.

regarding the "engine destroyed due to side torso distruction" issue in this issue an engine is not actually destroyed upon recieving 3 crits it is just MISSION KILLED what that means is you blow off the side torso of a newtech marauder (with the xl engine) you did not just loose a 12 million cbill engine, you just lost enough shielding etc that the safties immediately kick in and scram thereactor and lock it down/off until it is repaired enough to get it back to no more than 2 crits worth of damage done to it.


So, lemme ask then:

Say a standard frame Marauder (a Marik and DC mech) wants an upgrade to Endo internals. Can ANY mech factory do it (for a hefty fee)? Or can only a factory that makes heavy-class Endo and normal frames do it? Or a factory capable of any base frame parts?

I'm not aware of any mass produced MAD variants that had endo...if it isn't a 'canon' available variant, we can still do it provided we have the cash and crit space available, I'm assuming by their use of the word 'unrestricted'.

#42 Goldhawk

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 02:34 PM

What about making XL engines easier to damage? I recall something about XL engines being lighter, bulkier, and easier to damage then Standard Engines that have heavier shielding and heavier weight.

#43 Kartr

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 02:36 PM

View PostXaks, on 22 April 2012 - 02:23 PM, said:


So, lemme ask then:

Say a standard frame Marauder (a Marik and DC mech) wants an upgrade to Endo internals. Can ANY mech factory do it (for a hefty fee)? Or can only a factory that makes heavy-class Endo and normal frames do it? Or a factory capable of any base frame parts?

I'm not aware of any mass produced MAD variants that had endo...if it isn't a 'canon' available variant, we can still do it provided we have the cash and crit space available, I'm assuming by their use of the word 'unrestricted'.

My .02 C-bills would say that any factory could do the endo-steel upgrade. It's not the endo-steel that's the big deal it's the equipment to strip the entire 'Mech down to it's skeleton and then rebuild it around a new skeleton that's the big deal.

#44 karish

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 02:46 PM

View PosteZZip, on 21 April 2012 - 04:51 PM, said:

First off, how about using periods and commas? Second, there is already a leveling component in the game for the pilot and you probably won't start off with enough money to get multiple mechs customized to your satisfaction. People absolutely should not have to play significantly longer (i.e., getting to a high level) in order to get more advanced equipment, since that inevitably leads to frustration via games with players getting owned by those with better equipment.

Never do this. The same argument can be made for travelling to different 'planets' (maps), waiting between games (time between contracts/enemy action/new operations/etc.), and repairing your mech. It's generally a terrible idea to actually prevent people from playing your game.


looks like eZZip wants to play easy arcade mode, no work and all reward

#45 Sven Svenson

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 02:59 PM

View PostGoldhawk, on 22 April 2012 - 02:34 PM, said:

What about making XL engines easier to damage? I recall something about XL engines being lighter, bulkier, and easier to damage then Standard Engines that have heavier shielding and heavier weight.

standard engines fit entirely within the heavily amoured center torso. Inner sphere XL engines are bulky requiring 6 additional crit slots 3 in each side torso. If the side torso is destroyed the loss of 3 engine crits is enough to put you out of the battle and a hefty repair bill. At least I believe thats how the TT rules works, nothing to stop the Devs from modifey the rule.

#46 Xaks

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 03:12 PM

View PostSven Svenson, on 22 April 2012 - 02:59 PM, said:

standard engines fit entirely within the heavily amoured center torso. Inner sphere XL engines are bulky requiring 6 additional crit slots 3 in each side torso. If the side torso is destroyed the loss of 3 engine crits is enough to put you out of the battle and a hefty repair bill. At least I believe thats how the TT rules works, nothing to stop the Devs from modifey the rule.


Yep, that's the tabletop rule we always had.

#47 eZZip

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 03:26 PM

View Postkarish, on 22 April 2012 - 02:46 PM, said:

looks like eZZip wants to play easy arcade mode, no work and all reward
Is Starcraft easy arcade mode? Is Quake easy arcade mode? Is CS easy arcade mode? All those games have (or have had) very large competitive followings and they didn't limit players' abilities outside of the match. Looking at MMORPGs, which have tons of work and crap rewards generally, competitive play is pathetic in all but the largest MMORPGs, and if you haven't noticed, playing competitively is much harder. The real easy mode is a game where you 'improve' as long as you sink time into it, because you won't need skill to get somewhere.

View PostKartr, on 21 April 2012 - 08:41 PM, said:

Because you want them to play as much as possible. However using endosteel can give you a huge advantage because it allows you to pack more tonnage on. That kind of power needs to have a gate, the gate definitely needs to be in part cost (C-Bills not R-Bills) and possibly time as well.
That is a horrible form of balance—in fact, it's not balance at all. You can't balance a game by making it so that only a few players can have something, because in reality, all that will happen is that they will have a huge advantage whenever they are present. It should be a real decision to use endo steel or not, with the lower tonnage as a pro and probably something in addition to fewer crits as a con, and then there will be no need to limit players' choices of internal structure on the basis of the amount of time they've played.

EDIT: I also think that it is viable to simply not allow players to change internal structures, so they can only have endo steel if they have a variant with it. That's if the variants are sufficiently differentiated in other areas, so that you don't get two Hunchbacks with nearly the same configuration but one with endo steel + more components and the other without.

Edited by eZZip, 22 April 2012 - 06:21 PM.


#48 LackofCertainty

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 03:32 PM

View PosteZZip, on 21 April 2012 - 04:51 PM, said:

First off, how about using periods and commas? Second, there is already a leveling component in the game for the pilot and you probably won't start off with enough money to get multiple mechs customized to your satisfaction. People absolutely should not have to play significantly longer (i.e., getting to a high level) in order to get more advanced equipment, since that inevitably leads to frustration via games with players getting owned by those with better equipment.

Never do this. The same argument can be made for travelling to different 'planets' (maps), waiting between games (time between contracts/enemy action/new operations/etc.), and repairing your mech. It's generally a terrible idea to actually prevent people from playing your game.


I pretty much 100% agree with this.


View PostTuhalu, on 21 April 2012 - 06:17 PM, said:

In general, I agree, but you are taking a fraction of my suggestion as if it was the whole thing. "Never" take a comment out of context :rolleyes:

My suggestion would not prevent people from playing the game. By the time you have sufficient rank in your faction and sufficient skill in that particular mech, you should have enough C-Bills to not only pay for the upgrade to your current mech, but also buy one or two more. At worst, the time delay should encourage a player to try a different mech (although they might just buy a replacement until the upgraded one comes back from the shop!). It should never prevent that player from playing unless they have somehow wasted all their money. In fact, the game should prevent you from sending your only mech away for a factory refit.

My argument was more for making it an "end game" event to have a mech with factory refit parts (as opposed to buying one brand new). Before then, there are some quite heavy refits you can do inside a regular mech bay/lab.


But you are preventing people from playing, because a time delay prevents a person from playing the mech they want. If I log in and want to play a hunchback, I am going to play a hunchback. If I upgrade my hunchback and the game tells me "You can't use your hunchback for another 3 days," that is basically the equivalent of the game giving me a giant middle finger.

We aren't roleplaying in a persistant BattleTech MMO here, we're playing an online arena based game that simplifies a lot of the mechanics already involved. I don't have to wait hours while techs swap my guns/armor, and I certainly don't place an order with a factory and wait until they produce my mech. Why should I have to wait for them to upgrade/replace a chasis.

Not allowing a person to endo-steel up their mech until they own multiple mechs, or making people wait real life time in order to do so does nothing for balance. All it does is create a "grudge" between players who want to upgrade their mech but are waiting on it, vs. the people who already have the upgrades. It's the same reason why I hated Battlefield bad company 2's multiplayer. 90% of people past level 14 use magnum ammo, because it is arguably the best perk. So every single time that I got killed by a person with magnum ammo when I was below level 14 made me angry. (and ultimately made me quit playing)

In MWO all that needs to be done is that Endo-steel needs to be balanced with regular chasis. Endo-steel makes you more durable, but eats up your precious crit slots. I expect the upgrade purchase to be a moderate cost, not something on the level of buying a whole new mech.


View PostGrinner, on 22 April 2012 - 05:36 AM, said:

The problem I have with Endo Steel available on any 'mech is that it makes ferro fibrous armor obsolete. Both occupy 14 critical spaces but Endo saves more tonnage. If any 'mech can mount either, why would any 'mech ever mount ferro? Granted you might see a few light'mechs that mount both because tonnage is at such a premium for them, but most mechs will have one or the other, and if either is available, Endo is the clearly better choice. The advantage of ferro should be that you can mount it on any chassis. Endo should give that extra edge to those chassis or variants that come equipped with it, at the expense of reduced critical space for weaponry, heat sinks, and equipment. I think this would make more sense canonically, be more balanced, and would give a reason for players to actually use ferro.



You're right, and this is a case where I'd rather see the dev's stray from TT. Instead of Ferro being "worse endo" I'd prefer if Fero was "light endo" Aka, reduce the tonnage savings of ferro and also the crit space used. That would make both have a place in mech customization.

Edited by LackofCertainty, 22 April 2012 - 03:42 PM.


#49 Dragon Lady

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 03:42 PM

View PosteZZip, on 22 April 2012 - 03:26 PM, said:

It should be a real decision to use endo steel or not, with the lower tonnage as a pro and probably something in addition to fewer crits as a con, and then there will be no need to limit players' choices of internal structure on the basis of the amount of time they've played.


Quite frankly, Ferro-Fibrous has always been more for lightweight mechs, than their heavier bretheren. And IMO, the weight savings of endo-steel aren't that great. We're talking a 5% savings of weight, regardless of the 'Mech. Even 100 tonners are saving only five tons. The real weight savings are replacing standard engines for XL ones, and of course double heat sinks. As far as uber- star-league technology is concerned, Endo-Steel is small potatoes compared to double-heat sinks, XL engines, and gauss rifles.

Even then, those three pieces of technology are minuscule compared to what's coming next. IMO, the real game breakers will be Clan technology.

#50 Rejarial Galatan

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 07:47 PM

View PostOswin Aurelius, on 21 April 2012 - 09:19 PM, said:


I'm going to make it my mission to kill anything that mounts only PPC and/or Gauss. Beware, douchebags, beware.

guess that makes me a douchebag huh? My alpha boats are high yield but slow cycle demons like a PPC/Gauss setup. I do have more than that as a trick in my bag mind you, but, its what I use when on cold/space maps.

#51 Kartr

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 09:42 PM

View PosteZZip, on 22 April 2012 - 03:26 PM, said:

That is a horrible form of balance—in fact, it's not balance at all. You can't balance a game by making it so that only a few players can have something, because in reality, all that will happen is that they will have a huge advantage whenever they are present. It should be a real decision to use endo steel or not, with the lower tonnage as a pro and probably something in addition to fewer crits as a con, and then there will be no need to limit players' choices of internal structure on the basis of the amount of time they've played.

Except that Endo is supposed to be fairly rare and if there isn't a gate then everyone is going to have it. There's honestly no reason not to have it with most of the 'Mechs we're getting at the start. There's plenty of crit space available to absorb the Endo and it will let you put in much heavier weaponry. Grinding the C-bills for endo is not only a great time sink, but it helps keep it from becoming super common. This is especially important because we don't have tiers like WoT. Since there's no tiers once you find a 'Mech you like and do well in you're just going to stay there because all 'Mechs are viable at all times. Making endo harder to get essentially adds a tier by making the 'Mech more powerful and rewards players for spending more time in the game.

#52 Leetskeet

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 10:09 PM

I only read the first couple posts, but unless these upgrades come in the form of -rare-(you know, the 1% MMO drop rates) after battle drops from "salvage", then we're going to have a situation where you are essentially worthless without the top tier tech.

Endo and XL's do their thing, and XL's have the huge drawback of screwing you from ANY torso breach, but double heat sinks are one of those upgrades that completely negates and entire portion of the gameplay.

The difference between a mech with DHS and SHS is HUGE. DHS are going to have to be really fragile or hard to obtain with incredible expenses to balance them with singles. So sure, you want to have incredible heat efficiency. Except getting rattled by a heavy weapon might make the damn things snap in half.

Because in a video game where balance is key, giving certain people access to supermechs while everyone else is rolling in mechs that have to adhere to the rules will cause problems. I don't care if some one has double heat sinks and can fire nonstop without worry, but they damn well better have a weakness ON THE BATTLEFIELD because I can promise you C-Bills are not going to be an issue after a decent amount of playtime.

#53 Oswin Aurelius

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 10:14 PM

View PostLeetskeet, on 22 April 2012 - 10:09 PM, said:

I only read the first couple posts, but unless these upgrades come in the form of -rare-(you know, the 1% MMO drop rates) after battle drops from "salvage", then we're going to have a situation where you are essentially worthless without the top tier tech.


Drop rates? I think you're talking about the wrong game.

#54 Leetskeet

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 10:19 PM

View PostOswin Aurelius, on 22 April 2012 - 10:14 PM, said:


Drop rates? I think you're talking about the wrong game.


And I think you didn't read much of the post. As a side note, I put "salvage" in quotes because it's not a difficult intellectual leap to draw the line between salvage and post battle drops, which can -very easily- have a chance for a stray double heat sink or two worked into the equation. It's not difficult.

Edit - In fact, it's quite plausible.

Edited by Leetskeet, 22 April 2012 - 10:20 PM.


#55 Kartr

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 11:02 PM

View PostLeetskeet, on 22 April 2012 - 10:19 PM, said:


And I think you didn't read much of the post. As a side note, I put "salvage" in quotes because it's not a difficult intellectual leap to draw the line between salvage and post battle drops, which can -very easily- have a chance for a stray double heat sink or two worked into the equation. It's not difficult.

Edit - In fact, it's quite plausible.

Except you can't just get DHS as a drop, you have to convert the engine to use DHS as well, and once that's done you get 10 DHS essentially free.

#56 guardiandashi

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 04:58 AM

View PostKartr, on 22 April 2012 - 11:02 PM, said:

Except you can't just get DHS as a drop, you have to convert the engine to use DHS as well, and once that's done you get 10 DHS essentially free.

mabie not free but possibly "wholesale"

in battlemechs there are different aspects of "cost"

cost in money
cost in weight
cost in space used
cost in "game ballance"
etc

#57 EDMW CSN

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 05:20 AM

XL engine flaws = Lose a side torso and your mech is crippled. And they cost 4 times the cost of a standard engine.

Endo steel = factory refit. Only mechs that have being re-designed for Endo-steel can use endo-steel. Harder to repair. Making repairs to structure more expensive is a good way balance it out. In fluff it takes longer to repair, so to make it repair at the same time, you need to hire twice the manpower or at least far more competent staff.

Ferro-Fibrous = common armor refit, downside is costlier to repair and the armor is more difficult to repair. Same as endo, except it applies to armor.

#58 RedDragon

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 06:55 AM

View PostKartr, on 22 April 2012 - 02:36 PM, said:

My .02 C-bills would say that any factory could do the endo-steel upgrade. It's not the endo-steel that's the big deal it's the equipment to strip the entire 'Mech down to it's skeleton and then rebuild it around a new skeleton that's the big deal.

If I remember correctly, endo steel can only be manufactured by orbital factories since you need a zero-g environment to accomplish it. So I'd guess you'd really have to use the original factory that produces a chassis with endo steel to get your mech upgraded. In no way this could be a field-upgrade.

#59 Nik Van Rhijn

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 08:25 AM

Assuming that the theoretically available Level 2 tech is not introduced until after launch to enable them to get the initial balancing right and get people settled in. The major item that most people will go for is double heatsinks with perhaps XLengines second. To be honest if people don't have sufficient C-bills then they will buy them for RL money as people will be otherwise outclassed compared with Level 1 tech. TBH I don't think it will come in 'til Christmas, so I suggest people start saving for their upgrades.

#60 Kartr

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 09:54 AM

View PostRedDragon, on 23 April 2012 - 06:55 AM, said:

If I remember correctly, endo steel can only be manufactured by orbital factories since you need a zero-g environment to accomplish it. So I'd guess you'd really have to use the original factory that produces a chassis with endo steel to get your mech upgraded. In no way this could be a field-upgrade.

You can buy the endo-steel from the orbital facility, don't need the facility to instal it and I don't see why a smelting plant would conduct chassis installs. Buy the chassis take it to any factory and they'll install it.

View PostNik Van Rhijn, on 23 April 2012 - 08:25 AM, said:

Assuming that the theoretically available Level 2 tech is not introduced until after launch to enable them to get the initial balancing right and get people settled in. The major item that most people will go for is double heatsinks with perhaps XLengines second. To be honest if people don't have sufficient C-bills then they will buy them for RL money as people will be otherwise outclassed compared with Level 1 tech. TBH I don't think it will come in 'til Christmas, so I suggest people start saving for their upgrades.

Pretty sure we're starting Level 2 tech considering we're getting the Awesome and it's PPCs.

Edited by Kartr, 23 April 2012 - 09:54 AM.






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