74 replies to this topic

[Grinner]

Kartr, on 23 April 2012 - 09:54 AM, said:

Pretty sure we're starting Level 2 tech considering we're getting the Awesome and it's PPCs.

Except the Awesome 8Q is a pure 3025 'mech with all level 1 tech. Single heat sinks and PPC's are old tech. But I'll grant you level 2 tech is very likely given the time frame and many of the news flashes.

[Kartr]

Grinner, on 23 April 2012 - 11:13 AM, said:

Except the Awesome 8Q is a pure 3025 'mech with all level 1 tech. Single heat sinks and PPC's are old tech. But I'll grant you level 2 tech is very likely given the time frame and many of the news flashes.

Ah didn't know that, still learning what constitutes which level of tech.

[Grinner]

No worries Kartr. In short level 1 tech represents the most basic level of technology maintained by the Inner Sphere during the Succession Wars. Namely standard armor, internal structure, and fusion engines, small , medium and large lasers (not pulse or ER), PPCs, flamers, machine guns, standard autocannons, and standard short and long range missile launchers. Everything else is level 2 tech, which represents "lostech" from the earlier Star League era, like ER and pulse lasers, Gauss rifles, ultra and LBX autocannons, and Artemis FCS for missile launchers, or newly created weapons like Rotary autocannons or medium range missiles. This game is set in 3049, which is right around the time a lot of the old star league tech id being rediscovered.

[Vollstrecker]

Internal structure IS the 'mech frame, you can't just swap that out. It's like trying to replace your bones with bones that are twice as large. The same issue arises with XL engine swaps, though authors have notably differed on this. Your 'mech was designed around a standard engine, meaning that the torso was shaped specifically to utilize that particular model of engine. XL engines are twice as large and take up notable extra space in the torso, the 'mech should need to be built to accommodate the larger engine.

Heat sinks are likely able to be done through a field-refit, even the engine ones. Armor is not really a big deal, as it isn't as restrictive. I'd prefer having the engine/internals being unchangable for a chassis, but it might cause problems with levelling up variants as you'll have tons of variants you need to level on.

[Sprouticus]

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Tech_level_1

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Level_2


some of the level 2 tech is beyond the 3049 time frame.


So far the Dev's have confirmed Level 1 weapons +gauss in their examples.

I believe they also implied XL, Endo, etc in some examples, but have not confirmed it.

[RedDragon]

Kartr, on 23 April 2012 - 09:54 AM, said:

You can buy the endo-steel from the orbital facility, don't need the facility to instal it and I don't see why a smelting plant would conduct chassis installs. Buy the chassis take it to any factory and they'll install it.

I don't think you can obtain "raw" endo steel. More likely the orbital facilities will deliver already shaped parts for the internal structure of a given chassis, if they don't deliver the whole structure in one part. And I'd guess the oribtal facility is part of a mech factory. It produces the endo steel and sends it to the surface where the mech is assembled.

[guardiandashi]

Vollstrecker, on 23 April 2012 - 12:39 PM, said:

Internal structure IS the 'mech frame, you can't just swap that out. It's like trying to replace your bones with bones that are twice as large. The same issue arises with XL engine swaps, though authors have notably differed on this. Your 'mech was designed around a standard engine, meaning that the torso was shaped specifically to utilize that particular model of engine. XL engines are twice as large and take up notable extra space in the torso, the 'mech should need to be built to accommodate the larger engine.

Heat sinks are likely able to be done through a field-refit, even the engine ones. Armor is not really a big deal, as it isn't as restrictive. I'd prefer having the engine/internals being unchangable for a chassis, but it might cause problems with levelling up variants as you'll have tons of variants you need to level on.

the internal structure standard, endosteel endo composite or other IS the internal structure of the mech HOWEVER a mech is not a living being, it is more akin to a car or other vehicle, while there are definately ... challenges to reinforcing or changing the frame on a vehicle it CAN be done, it just tends to be labor and time intensive, because it requires one of 2 things.
1 disassemble every location on the mech remove and replace internal structure componants, then rebuild the locations, or assenble new internal structure in an ajacent mech bay/assembly gantry, then transferring all the parts to be reused to the new frame/chassis

Changing engine TYPE standard fusion to xl fusion, or other is under the current upgrades and refits rules also considered a factory level refit, I can change the engine SIZE as a maintance level refit IE going from a 300 to a 360 in a dragon, or a 300 to a 225 in a 75 ton mech but not changing from a 300 std to a 375 xl (even though the 375xl only weighs 0.5 tons more)

changing Heatsink type from std(single) to double heatsinks is specifically noted as a maintance level refit, and can be done in a dropship bay

RedDragon, on 23 April 2012 - 12:49 PM, said:

I don't think you can obtain "raw" endo steel. More likely the orbital facilities will deliver already shaped parts for the internal structure of a given chassis, if they don't deliver the whole structure in one part. And I'd guess the oribtal facility is part of a mech factory. It produces the endo steel and sends it to the surface where the mech is assembled.

the endosteel alloys are specifically noted as being manufactured in orbit, the endosteel structures are not specified as having to be made there, so in theory the special alloyed material blanks may be manufactured in orbit then brought to a more conventional ground baced facility to be manufactured into the specidic pieces needed, then shipped to the required location for final assembly.

[Vollstrecker]

guardiandashi, on 23 April 2012 - 01:09 PM, said:

the internal structure standard, endosteel endo composite or other IS the internal structure of the mech HOWEVER a mech is not a living being, it is more akin to a car or other vehicle, while there are definately ... challenges to reinforcing or changing the frame on a vehicle it CAN be done, it just tends to be labor and time intensive, because it requires one of 2 things.
1 disassemble every location on the mech remove and replace internal structure componants, then rebuild the locations, or assenble new internal structure in an ajacent mech bay/assembly gantry, then transferring all the parts to be reused to the new frame/chassis

Right, but at that point you're still basically removing the very core of the 'mech, it's likely more cost and labor effective to simply produce a new 'mech at that point because of all the work involved disassembling it. The analogy holds true because you're still replacing the car's frame with one that is twice as bulky, all of the internal components have to be made to accommodate the decrease in available space or by making the design larger in physical size. You can't really exchange internals using your analogy without using Handwavium.

guardiandashi, on 23 April 2012 - 01:09 PM, said:

Changing engine TYPE standard fusion to xl fusion, or other is under the current upgrades and refits rules also considered a factory level refit, I can change the engine SIZE as a maintance level refit IE going from a 300 to a 360 in a dragon, or a 300 to a 225 in a 75 ton mech but not changing from a 300 std to a 375 xl (even though the 375xl only weighs 0.5 tons more)

After some consideration, some designs may not need a full torso rebuild to accommodate an XL engine, however you do want to keep in mind that the interior of the 'mech still needs to be shuffled around to properly connect an engine twice as large. You can't keep everything in place if you're replacing a mouse-ball with a ping-pong ball, the chassis has to be changed to accommodate it. Same if you're going in the opposite direction and replacing it with a marble.

[Grinner]

http://mwomercs.com/...__fromsearch__1
Good thread on what constitutes level one and level two tech as well as when the tech is rediscovered and what id likely to show up in our timeline.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

The devs have said that each "official" variant to be levelled for a particular mech has it's own "ID". How valid that is if you heavily customise the variant so that it is totally dissimilar to the original. At the moment (which I am sure will change) it appears that you could perhaps modify both your original mech, and it's variants, until they are effectively identical. This of course somewhat nullifies the intention, which is why i am confident that the MechLab will be somewhat different from the details we have had so far.
While time for repairs and "travel" to battles is extremely unlikely, it is possible that the more extreme customisation could have time penalties, as well as financial ones.

[Kartr]

Nik Van Rhijn, on 23 April 2012 - 02:32 PM, said:

The devs have said that each "official" variant to be levelled for a particular mech has it's own "ID". How valid that is if you heavily customise the variant so that it is totally dissimilar to the original. At the moment (which I am sure will change) it appears that you could perhaps modify both your original mech, and it's variants, until they are effectively identical. This of course somewhat nullifies the intention, which is why i am confident that the MechLab will be somewhat different from the details we have had so far.
While time for repairs and "travel" to battles is extremely unlikely, it is possible that the more extreme customisation could have time penalties, as well as financial ones.

It only nullifies the intention when two 'Mechs already have fairly similar loadouts, or when the 'Mech is fitted with a very balanced loadout. In those situations why shouldn't it be possible to make the variants more like the stock, or the stock more like the variants? A bigger concern to me is how Endo, XL and FF is handled. Especially Endo and XL as those are the biggest weight savers.

[Kreisel]

So I have to ask, in the tabletop, did level 2 tech make level 1 tech obsolete and useless? Cause the vibe I'm getting from a lot of these posts seem to be 'level 2 tech is gonna make lvl 1 tech pointless.' Mind you, I didn't play the tabletop much, but from the little bit I did, I recall lvl 2 being overall better in many cases, but there were always reasons worth considering putting lvl1 tech in instead (and I never played with C-bill cost as a factor).

From the way the Devs have described damage, I expect the extra critical space taken up by XL engines and Double Heat sinks will be a risk, just like having Ammo cook off is a risk. It sounds like it will be entirely possible for your foe to destroy your heat sinks while your still fighting him. Which certainly could make the delicate balance of maintaining your heat much trickier. From the way things have been described I've got the sense, once armor is blown off a section further hits to that location will check which critical slots they 'destroyed'. So an XL engine is a big risk since you could be taken out of the game with nothing but hits to your side Torso, and IS Double heat sinks are 3 times as likely as single to take a hit.

There is a lot of talk going around about needing factories or kits for refits to your Mech, but I've heard nothing from the devs about anything but a 'Mechlab' being used for customizing. I don't expect there to be 'travel time' outside matches that players have to worry about, since it would largely get in the way of gameplay (especially trying to play with friends. If a buddy logs in on the far side of galaxy and we only have so long to play, being bared from playing with him, or if my Merc unit needs one more pilot for their lance and I'm free but can't join because of a contrived mechanic... it would hugely detract from how appealing the game is.) So I think it's safe to assume every time we enter the mechlab we're in a fully functional factory every bit as capable of refits as the most advanced facilities the Galaxy has to offer.

I see a lot of people complaining that being able to add these features to mechs that don't have them will make those Mechs more powerful, but what about making those Mechs competitive with the ones who come later? The ones where things like Endosteel, DHS, and FF armor are standard features? If these features really are all around better (rather than just a trade off on resource for another.) then if certain mechs or variants can't us them wont they simply fall by the wayside into disuse the moment those that can come to the forefront? Should I have to ditch my favorite mech for the new model that came out in order to compete? Or is it more fair to have the options to spend my C-bills either for the new mech or to bring my current mech about on par with it technology wise? The Devs have indicated time and again they want every Mech to be a viable and competitive options (given the right circumstances) and that player skill should be king. If some mechs can not mount this stuff and they have to have wasted space that others don't as a result, whats to prevent them from being considered second rate? I don't understand how there seems to be the idea that a Mech that already has theses features will not be as good as a mech that didn't have them until you added them.

Frankly speaking the Nature of battletech and MWO is that with play you will have statistical bonuses that make you better than new players, it's a reality we are going to have to accept, there is a leveling system, two of them in fact, one for pilot one for Mech chassis. In addition to the natural learning curve of how players themselves get better with play. It would be unrealistic of us to think that with time, play and c-bills that we wont be able to make the basic mechs themselves better too. Heck even just tweaking the Mech to better fit our natural play-style (once we've played enough to learn what that is) will make it realistically better, even if it's not statistically advantageous. Ironically this is one area where the inclusion of the F2P models might be in favor of making the game more balanced for new players who can toss a little bit of money in to start out with some extra c-bills or something so they can catch up with regular players a little quicker. My hope is just that the gap will be small enough that the uphill battle teaches them to be better players and not that it's so steep it makes it nearly impossible for them to succeed, causing them to give up in frustration. It's a delicate balance.

As for the argument letting these changes be made wont allow variants to be different enough, the proposed variants we've seen from Devs have been like '3 Hunchbacks the Ballistic one, the Missile one and the energy one. or the Missile boat and laser fire support versions of the Catapult.' regardless of what you do to the internal structures.... those are all going to play significantly differently.

Edited by Kreisel, 24 April 2012 - 05:01 PM.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

Effectively yes, althuogh most people preferred to mix the two techs. Pure level one mechs tended to be outclassed. The main advantage is double heatsinks - you get 10 "free" on the engine which enables you to carry more/heavier energy weapons. XL engines are a definate trade off because of the extra fragility of the mechs but sometimes the advantages are worth it, ususally on scout mechs or sometimes on assaults where the extra speed is worth it.The ERPPC for instance has not only improved range but no minimum range. With the wesome its worth using one or two of them with an ordinary PPC if you want to reduce the heat.

With regard to the Hunchback variants - all 3 can be made into a 2 PPC mech at the moment so you can level up all 3variants with no change in playstyle whatsoever.

[Kreisel]

Nik Van Rhijn, on 24 April 2012 - 05:34 PM, said:

Effectively yes, althuogh most people preferred to mix the two techs. Pure level one mechs tended to be outclassed. The main advantage is double heatsinks - you get 10 "free" on the engine which enables you to carry more/heavier energy weapons. XL engines are a definate trade off because of the extra fragility of the mechs but sometimes the advantages are worth it, ususally on scout mechs or sometimes on assaults where the extra speed is worth it.The ERPPC for instance has not only improved range but no minimum range. With the wesome its worth using one or two of them with an ordinary PPC if you want to reduce the heat.

With regard to the Hunchback variants - all 3 can be made into a 2 PPC mech at the moment so you can level up all 3variants with no change in playstyle whatsoever.

Good to know. The Double heatsinks inside the engine does seem to be a major advantage, and just well ignoring the whole 'critical slots matter' aspect a great deal. It will be interesting to see how they handle that aspect of the DHS.

Well, I do suppose I overlooked the idea of tossing the typical core of their weapon loadout completely to the wind. Playing them nothing like their basic design by loading everything into places expected for smaller armaments just so you could push them to all be the same didn't occur to me. It just feels to me like... well, if that's what you wanted to do with it, why didn't you just pick a mech designed to do that in the first place? (assuming there is one). Choosing to completely disregard the core aspects of the chassis by pushing the limits of the design really isn't the same thing as there being no meaningful difference between the variants. That's really just a player choosing not to take advantage of the options made available to him by the variants. It's their choice to make, but it doesn't invalidate the fact all of them have vastly different potentials.

[Grinner]

A lot of the earlier Level 2 tech (at least the inner sphere versions) are fairly well balanced against level 1 tech. It's not necessarily a case of better, just... different. Double heat sinks are just about the only piece of equipment that are clearly better than single heat sinks, because of the aforementioned 10 heat sinks in the engine (provided the engine is large enough, the smaller engines can not mount the full 10, and the larger engines can mount even more than this). If you use only the bare minimum number of heat sinks on a chassis and they are all mounted in the engine, then double heat sinks are just clearly better. If you have enough space to fit a few additional heat sinks throughout your chassis you can use a lot more energy weapons than mechs using single heat sinks, though there comes a point where you simply can't fit any more heat sinks (See the Awesome 9Q, 4 standard PPCS just about every available critical space filled with heat sinks)

Now aside from DHS, just about every other Level 2 weapon comes with a trade off. The standard medium laser, for example, weighs 1 ton, does 5 damage, generates 3 heat, and reaches out to 9 hexes (270 meters). The ER version weighs the same and takes up the same space, but generates 5 heat for a range of 12 hexes (360 meters). Is the extra 90 meters worth 2 extra heat? Sometimes, but not always. Gauss rifles don't really have a level 1 equivalent, but they have their disadvantages. It's a big powerful weapon that reaches out to a good distance, but it has a minimum range, it's relatively large and it weighs 15 tons, so not many mechs can mount more than one of them. Additionally, unlike other ballistic weapons, the inert metal rounds it fires do not explode, but the rifle itself will, which means that it is much more likely to blow up and damage your pilot as it takes up so much more space. ER PPC's as mentioned earlier get rid of the minimum range and go out to an excellent 23 hexes (690 meters), but for the same space and tonnage as a standard PPC they generate 5 more heat, for a staggering 15 heat. Again, a trade off.

Some weapons, however, are just clearly superior. LBX Autocannons are just plain superior to Standards. They go farther, weigh less, or take up less space than the standards, and allow the use of cluster munitions which are excellent for scoring critical hits against exposed internal structure. Only the later addition of the specialized ammo types make standard autocannons viable again.

Mixing tech is absolutely the norm on almost every mech I can think of. Standard fusion engines weigh more, but XL engines are bulkier and more fragile. Standard internal structure and armor types weigh more, but the lighter weight versions take up 14 critical spaces a piece. You will see mechs with standard fusion engines, endo steel structure and double heat sinks, an LB-10X and standard medium lasers, standard PPCs right next to gauss rifles, etc. Like I said, it's not a case of better or worse, for the most part, it's all down to choice.

Excluding Clan tech, of course. That stuff is just unbalanced and clearly superior in every way to Inner Sphere tech.