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House Davion vs House Liao


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#21 Volturnus

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 06:56 AM

View PostMetal God, on 30 April 2012 - 06:27 AM, said:

the fact that anyone can actually support a government led my Romano Liao appalls me.


The same could be said of a government led by someone who starts a war as a wedding gift, kills millions, and destroys half a nation simply because he doesn't agree with their way of life. For a Davion to call our government oppressive is absolutely hypocritical, to say the least.

Edited by Volturnus, 30 April 2012 - 06:58 AM.


#22 Metal God

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 07:07 AM

View PostVolturnus, on 30 April 2012 - 06:56 AM, said:


The same could be said of a government led by someone who starts a war as a wedding gift, kills millions, and destroys half a nation simply because he doesn't agree with their way of life. For a Davion to call our government oppressive is absolutely hypocritical, to say the least.


You say that as if the Fourth Succession War was unwarranted, when Max Liao had already tried to replace Hanse with a double, and both countries had been add odds for ages.

#23 Ross486

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 07:41 AM

This topic is taking off pretty fast keep it going i like all the interesting points everyone is making for their respective sides.

#24 Volturnus

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 07:49 AM

View PostMetal God, on 30 April 2012 - 07:07 AM, said:


You say that as if the Fourth Succession War was unwarranted, when Max Liao had already tried to replace Hanse with a double, and both countries had been add odds for ages.


I would hardly say that a three-year old grudge justifies involving the entire Inner Sphere in one of its most destructive conflicts yet.

#25 Adridos

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 07:56 AM

Well, this is going to be the only time I'm going to be polite towards Daviots (no RP, sorry OhGilPin).

For me, Liao is way better than Davions. Yeah, I agree our leadership is sometimes a bit off, but we are mostly a peaceful nation. Davions may represent the "ideals", but the representation of it makes them no more than real world super-powers. Saying: "I'm good, because they are different", is the same Russians and USA did for the last century. They are the "too good to be true" kind of thing. They represent the good guys, but if you change the angle you look at the just by one degree, they become the bad guys. Every other nation sees them as one and the only way they were able to keep their popularity is the fact we experience the universe from their perspective. Every time you read a book, their wars are "justified", but every other nation is just that bad guy that wants to hurt the defensless guy. The story is meant to be that way and that takes the whole feel of the universe and throws it into a trash bin. That's why joining with other factions is a much richer way to experience it, and that's why I chose that way. If you play as a Davion, you experience it this way: "We are the good guys trying to save the humanity.", and that is... too childish for anyone's taste. If you join up with other factions, you have both good and bad sides. You have a unique opinion of every faction and only favor yours lightly, still disagreeing with some actions your faction did. Xin Sheng, for example, is a good move. Problem is, that besides helping people, making their lives better, it also brings in xenophobia and everyone not Chinese is treated badly, even though he earned his citizenship just as everyone else. 4th Succession Wars is a bad thing. It is too perfect to be good. Davions kill billions and takes over their homes, their way of life. Problem is, we only experienc them from the others perspective. When was the last time you read about Marik/Steiner complaining, that such a slaughter is too bad to be considered a move that good guys should do? No. The massacre Kuritans did on a planet I can't remember the name of is the same. The leader disagreed, so he ordered a big massacre, just as Davions did, just spread out, so noone noticed. It is something every nation agrees was a mad move. Also, the attack from Capellan Confederation on RotS is considered a move of the bad guys. We attacked a smaller nation, simply because we disagreed with the peace with them and thought we can take on them... seems similar?

I respect some aspects of Davion culture, but they are the bad ones here, and I dislike those. <_<

Edited by Adridos, 30 April 2012 - 08:01 AM.


#26 Major Rampage

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 08:08 AM

Two words: Operation Galahad.

#27 Thorn Hallis

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 08:27 AM

What you call "oppression" we call "guidance", what you call "madness" we call "enlightment" (yeah ok, we have to when Romano is in listening range), what you call "slaves" we call "aspirants", what you call "tyranny" we call "greater society".

You can call Hanse Davion the greatest philantrophist in known (fictional) universe, but noone outside of the Crucis March buys it.


View PostMajor_Rampage, on 30 April 2012 - 08:08 AM, said:

Two words: Operation Galahad.


Uhm...thats a training exercise...

#28 Metal God

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 09:11 AM

View PostThorn Hallis, on 30 April 2012 - 08:27 AM, said:

What you call "oppression" we call "guidance", what you call "madness" we call "enlightment" (yeah ok, we have to when Romano is in listening range), what you call "slaves" we call "aspirants", what you call "tyranny" we call "greater society".

You can call Hanse Davion the greatest philantrophist in known (fictional) universe, but noone outside of the Crucis March buys it.




Uhm...thats a training exercise...


Ha, have you ever considered moving to North Korea? The government there is happy to provide "guidance" and "enlightenment." Tyranny when called by any other name is still tyranny.

#29 Thorn Hallis

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 09:15 AM

View PostMetal God, on 30 April 2012 - 09:11 AM, said:

Ha, have you ever considered moving to North Korea? The government there is happy to provide "guidance" and "enlightenment." Tyranny when called by any other name is still tyranny.


Hrhr, just wanted to ask you if you ever considered moving to the US, but well... <_<

#30 Adridos

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 09:16 AM

View PostMetal God, on 30 April 2012 - 09:11 AM, said:

Ha, have you ever considered moving to North Korea? The government there is happy to provide "guidance" and "enlightenment." Tyranny when called by any other name is still tyranny.


Capellan citizens have rights. They are free to move around IS. Also, we are not censored.
Nort Korea is a completely different beast. <_<

#31 Egomane

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 10:52 AM

View PostMetal God, on 30 April 2012 - 05:30 AM, said:

The Capellan Confederation has the most oppressive government in the Inner Sphere (followed closely by the Draconis Combine). They treat their people like possessions,

No, we do not! We never did. Our chancellors never did. If that were the case we would have had a revolt a long time ago but it never happend.

View PostMetal God, on 30 April 2012 - 05:30 AM, said:

and don't even consider them citizens until they've served the government.

or they earned it by simply being a cook, a poet, a teacher, a salesman, or one of millions of other ways to earn their citizenship. The easiest way is to simply serve your time in the military, but it is by far not the only one. And above all, we educate them even before they become citizens, no matter if they are poor and living on the streets or rich and eating from golden plates.

View PostMetal God, on 30 April 2012 - 05:30 AM, said:

Those who don't are relegated to the status of second-class citizen with no legal rights. In short, the CC doesn't value human life, and has no regard whatsoever for individual liberty.

We don't value those, that don't want to commit themself. If you just want to hang around an waste time, look somewhere else. But if you work, for the nation, for your neighbour or to enlighten our cultural understanding, you will be a citizen with morepersonal freedom then any other nation will grant you.

View PostMetal God, on 30 April 2012 - 05:30 AM, said:

The Federated Suns, on the other hand, stringly values freedom and liberty, and protect the rights of the lowliest individual. The sheer dominance of the AFFS protects these values from the oppressive, warmongering dictatorships that border the FedSuns.

That's why you have children living on the street, that will never learn to read or write. Instead of pushing the nations economy to further youzr military goals, you should try to live up to your selfproclaimed picture of your nation and invest some money into social projects.

View PostMetal God, on 30 April 2012 - 06:27 AM, said:

The FedSuns are indeed warmongering at times, but surrounded by such neighbors, can you blame them? And when has the FedSuns oppressed whole planets? Even with their warlike tendencies, there's no denying that the FedSuns are the freest state in the Inner Sphere.

Oh, yeah? Free? You may think so, but your whole nation only exists to further the goals of one family. That's great freedom you have there. Our leaders serves our nation. If s/he does not, s/he will lose her citizenship like anybody else. They are not above judgement, like yours seem to be.

View PostMetal God, on 30 April 2012 - 06:27 AM, said:

This is probably a losing fight in the CC forums, but the fact that anyone can actually support a government led my Romano Liao appalls me.

How can you not support the leadership of such a noble and wise and rightous person like our beloved chancelor Romano Liao?

View PostMetal God, on 30 April 2012 - 07:07 AM, said:

You say that as if the Fourth Succession War was unwarranted, when Max Liao had already tried to replace Hanse with a double, and both countries had been add odds for ages.

One man threatened in the FedSuns, takes revenge on millions of innocent capellan citizens. After he robbed them of homes and food and the peacefull life they had in the ConCap, he complains that they don't want to to be integrated into his nation peacefully? And not only did he involve the one who has been responsible for it, he had to throw the whole inner sphere into a war. His spy had a chance to kill the one responsible at any given moment. But Hanse never even considered that. He didn't want to take revenge. Whoever believes that, probably also believes in santa claus and the easter bunny.

#32 Metal God

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 11:52 AM

I'm not even sure how to respond to that, as this discussion seems to come down to socialism vs. libertarianism, at its core, instead of just Liao vs Davion.

All I can say is that, I don't want the government interfering in my life, and each person should be able to live their life as they choose without supervision from the state. Remember, the core principle of socialism is forcibly taking someone's hard-earned property and redistributing it to others (i.e., legal plunder).

Really, to me, the only legitimate role of government is to protect the people's liberty. The military does this by insuring that the state isn't conquered by external forces, and the police and courts do this by enforcing the laws (written in a Constitution) that protect the people. The state doesn't have any business in anything else, such as welfare, education, or health care, because the only revenue the state gains is from taxes. I make a distinction between legitimate taxes that pay for essential services such as the military, police, and courts, and legal plunder that benefits only certain individuals and/or groups.

In a capitalist system, hard work decides who suceeds and who doesn't, not the government. And those who fail can always fall back on friends, family, and charity to get them back on their feet. But you're going to have much less unemployed people in a laizze-faire economy, because people actually have an incentive to work when they don't have the option of sitting at home and living off government checks.

I'm a proud American, and have a huge amount of respect for our Founding Fathers, but I'm appalled with the state our government is in. Similarly, I can't defend every aspect of the Federated Suns, as I feel that they're too warlike at times, and I'd prefer if the officials were elected. But in the end, the FedSuns is the closest state in the Inner Sphere (or Periphery, for that matter) to my ideal form of minimal goverment. And the Capellan Confederation, on the other hand, is the opposite of everything I believe in.

Edited by Metal God, 30 April 2012 - 11:55 AM.


#33 Fetladral

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 12:04 PM

Obviously the FRR is the best and only actual democracy. Our prince is elected. And we fight the clans before anyone else.

#34 Thorn Hallis

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 12:09 PM

View PostMetal God, on 30 April 2012 - 11:52 AM, said:

snip


Thats all fine and well. Just don't try to present the FedSuns as holier than thou - cause they simply aren't.

#35 Metal God

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 12:09 PM

View PostFetladral, on 30 April 2012 - 12:04 PM, said:

Obviously the FRR is the best and only actual democracy. Our prince is elected. And we fight the clans before anyone else.


I like the FRR as well, but I don't fancy learning Swedenese. :P

View PostThorn Hallis, on 30 April 2012 - 12:09 PM, said:


Thats all fine and well. Just don't try to present the FedSuns as holier than thou - cause they simply aren't.


Well, in my opinion, when compared to the Capellan Confederation or Draconis Combine, they are. <_<

Edited by Metal God, 30 April 2012 - 12:11 PM.


#36 Baldwin Chang

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 12:10 PM

I despise Socialism in all its forms and my true loyalties lie wthin the Taurian Concrdat but I still like the CapCon; Mostly because it lets me roleplay an ideology i could never in good conscious agree with in a real world setting. Also it reminds me of the Federation from Heinlein's Starship Troopers.

#37 Metal God

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 12:15 PM

View PostJeremiah Mint, on 30 April 2012 - 12:10 PM, said:

I despise Socialism in all its forms and my true loyalties lie wthin the Taurian Concrdat but I still like the CapCon; Mostly because it lets me roleplay an ideology i could never in good conscious agree with in a real world setting. Also it reminds me of the Federation from Heinlein's Starship Troopers.


Hmm, that's an interesting viewpoint.

#38 Claw55

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 12:16 PM

View PostFetladral, on 30 April 2012 - 12:04 PM, said:

Obviously the FRR is the best and only actual democracy. Our prince is elected. And we fight the clans before anyone else.

We'll grant you your second and third points. We'll also point out that you lost to Ghost Bear in the end. But hey, depending on how you look at it, that may not be a bad thing.

You forgot to add you also have a greater amount of alcoholic beverages per capita than any other nation in the known universe.

Edited by Claw55, 30 April 2012 - 12:19 PM.


#39 Youngblood

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 12:47 PM

The Capellan Confederation is not a socialist state. It's a plutocracy with an exclusive culture. There's no actual redistribution of wealth, just the cultural sentiment that other Citizens know what is as good for you as you do.

Edited by Youngblood, 30 April 2012 - 12:48 PM.


#40 Toothman

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 12:57 PM

The Capellan Confederation makes a wonderfull vassel nation to the Federated Suns. They also make great manual laborers and servants. Polishing my boots used to be such a chore before I got my personal servants.





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