336 replies to this topic

[Taron]

I think, streakcats - or better: the SSRMs - are now working again as they did 2 weeks ago - with all it's advantages and disadvantages.

[Straylight]

Snib, on 21 November 2012 - 08:50 AM, said:

Oh, the "no skill" argument. I think I told you already, you have to try harder. And as usual you contradict yourself, because four terrible players would not be working together. They're terrible after all. Or in other words: Any four mechs focusing fire will get a kill, no matter the weapon system.

Unskilled players are capable of cooperating. I've been part of it, and I've been shot up by it. Will to teamwork and motivation are not dependent on experience or aptitude.

And for the record, I never said the 4 Cats had to be focusing fire, just that they had to be working together. I still want to see that video, or other conclusive evidence that Streakcats are as "not a problem" as you and other claim them to be.

The burden of proof is on the accuser, yes?

DTheSleepless, on 21 November 2012 - 08:54 AM, said:

Even Machine Guns?

...couldn't resist.

He said weapons, not flyswatters.

Buckler, on 21 November 2012 - 09:03 AM, said:

I'm definitely in agreement that a x6 SSRM2 CPLT-A1 with a fancy engine is quite strong, but I don't think you can pin the problem on the SSRMs. Nerfing the SSRM because the CPLT-A1 is able to exploit the cumulative power of 6 of them is like nerfing the Medium Laser because HBK-4P is so powerful with 9 of them.

I think we're mostly observing the known phenomena where 4 mechs focusing fire on the same target will decimate them no matter what (although the individual Streak cat is certainly a more efficient light-muncher than most.)

Yep, and I hope PGI realizes this at some point.

Honestly, situations like this one are why I'm opposed to allowing customization of assets at all, in any MW game. I didn't want it back in MWLL, and I don't want it here. It creates too many problems, and it's too difficult to fix them all without opening more holes elsewhere. Yes, you lose out on an interesting part of the game, but in return you get a game that just works better.

[Lightfoot]

Just pull two Missile hardpoints from the CPLT-A1. Give it one Ballistic slot to make up for it and let's move on.

[Glucose]

Reduce the shake.. And then a medium mech can really ruin its day when it can actually hit.

[SaXoN UK1]

Straylight, on 21 November 2012 - 06:34 AM, said:

The problem here really isn't Streaks. They're fine, fulfilling their role as a Light 'Mech deterrent and chaser. The problem is the Catapult A1. There's simply no damned good reason to give the thing 6 missile hardpoints when that's nowhere near necessary for the chassis to do its job.

Quoted for truth. Most mechs can only mount 2 SSRM's which puts out average damage, you can put 4 on a C4 which is good but not great. When you can mount 6, that's when the imbalance starts, mixed with the speed and armour you can kit an A1 out for.
They are the new (relatively) GaussApult (which is still good but not as wide spread as it used to be) and I'm sure most of the complaints are coming from Jenna Pilots as Streak Cats are the only thing that puts the fear of God in them at the moment.
Hold back and shoot their ears off, simples.

[JTAlweezy]

then launch with a group of AC mechs, and watch how afraid those cats will be

[Banditman]

Total damage out isn't the problem. The problem is that they haven't yet fixed the fact that SSRM's will core out a mech by simply keeping your reticle in the same zip code as your target.

Now, if SSRM's tracked instead to where the reticle was placed on the enemy mech, forcing the user to actually aim, you know what, that would be ok. People would accept it, because you are the one placing the shots, not a server.

[Mercules]

Ryvucz, on 21 November 2012 - 08:57 AM, said:

Ah, yes. Moving too slow. 136.1 KPH is way too slow to escape. Noted.

In that case you sacrificed something else to get that speed on a NORMAL engine. Armor maybe? If 30 damage is blowing off both arms and side torso then you have very little armor on your mech. You need it all on a light mech; Armor, Speed, Weapons.

Commando can have 16 armor on each arm, and 24 on the side torso(I tend to go 15 front and 9 back). 16+24=40 armor. 40 armor - 30 damage means I have 10 armor left somewhere and that isn't counting the internal structure that needs to be blown away to take the section out.

Jenners are annoying but I killed a bunch of them last night in my Commando even the ones armed with 2 x SSRMs and 4 Sm or MdLasers.

[Angel Dust]

S-srm's ARE op for the moment.......

But when ECM arrives, they will just be the same as srm-2's in most cases...
So wait a bit and it will resolve itself. Same goes for artemis, tag and narc. (at least I hope it does)

[Ryvucz]

Mercules, on 21 November 2012 - 09:27 AM, said:

In that case you sacrificed something else to get that speed on a NORMAL engine. Armor maybe? If 30 damage is blowing off both arms and side torso then you have very little armor on your mech. You need it all on a light mech; Armor, Speed, Weapons.

Commando can have 16 armor on each arm, and 24 on the side torso(I tend to go 15 front and 9 back). 16+24=40 armor. 40 armor - 30 damage means I have 10 armor left somewhere and that isn't counting the internal structure that needs to be blown away to take the section out.

Jenners are annoying but I killed a bunch of them last night in my Commando even the ones armed with 2 x SSRMs and 4 Sm or MdLasers.

Please read the full reply post, before making assumptions that my armor is not maxed, when it is. Thank you.

[Sprouticus]

Anecdotal commentary

Was up against a team last night on city. We were on the low end, ended up moving against the high base and taking out 4 mechs in the process. Was up 4-2. I was in an atlas-K, LRM15, 2xERLL, Gauss. The other 4 mechs were damaged but I was basically unhurt (3 yellow armor sections).

3 mechs came back to their base to engage. Commando, Hunchie and Streak cat
I killed 2 of them in the tim it took him to kill the 4 damaged mechs (including 2 of my teammates on comms,

The pilot was good, using the base doo-hickey to shield me from supporting my guys.

After he killed them he turned on me. He had 1 open panel, but was minimally hurt otherwise (NOTE This, minimally hurt after engaging 4 other mechs, two with VERY good pilots. Total time to kill.....maybe 25-30 seconds.

We exchanged blows, obviously I could not disengage. I tried to protect my CT but he was hitting the CT no matter how far I turned my torso. I was able to strip his CT to yellow internals, but in return I was red CT.
I had taken ZERO damage in any other section in spite of efforts to do spread dmg.

I then turned my back to him. Finally he was hitting my back armor. Of course that meant I could not hit him.
I then tried to get another shot in and hit threw a full volley into my CT (from effectively a 90 degree angle) and killed me


Things to note:

• There is ZERO spread on streaks now. They were OP before the patch 2 weeks ago, and they are OP now because of this fact alone. It makes up for lower DPS. a LOT
  
• He was a good pilot. I am above average, but he was good. That is one mitigating factor in my evaluation
  
• I was completely unhurt in my other panels. ZERO other dmg than CT. This in spite of extreme efforts to protect my CT
  
• Keeping distance is just not possible in MWO. It never really has been . You can sometimes disengage, you can sometimes escape if you have significant speed advantages (40 kph+). But generally it is impossible to do for anything above a heavy. Arguments that you can do this are just wrong.
  
• I played an A1 back in closed beta to test streaks (same basic issue as now) and frankly they were OP then. And boring.
  
• I agree that the A1 IS an exacerbating factor. But it is not the only factor. Jenner-D's with 4 sl and 2 streaks are pretty nasty right now too.

tl'dr

Streaks dont spread and always hit a single panel in the hands of an even HALF decent pilot. Because of that they are too powerful right now. Have the missiles spread to 2 panels and the issue is solved right off. If course they tried to do this last patch and the code the put in had streaks missing and spreading too much. There has to be a middle ground.

[Mercules]

Ryvucz, on 21 November 2012 - 09:29 AM, said:

Please read the full reply post, before making assumptions that my armor is not maxed, when it is. Thank you.

Then you sir... are lying. Somewhere.

3 salvos of 2x Streaks can NOT blow both arms and side torsos off a Commando with full armor. They can't even blow 1 side of. Math is not that hard. 40 armor - 30 damage= 10 armor left.

[Ryvucz]

Mercules, on 21 November 2012 - 09:32 AM, said:

Then you sir... are lying. Somewhere.

3 salvos of 2x Streaks can NOT blow both arms and side torsos off a Commando with full armor. They can't even blow 1 side of. Math is not that hard. 40 armor - 30 damage= 10 armor left.

Ah, because me lying is the absolute only explanation, right? Because what exactly do I have to gain if I was lying?

-EDIT BELOW-

On that same note, I'll have to call you out on your poor math and reasoning skills.

You CANNOT, have max armor on both torso front and back, so your math is flawed there.

I'm pretty sure you can agree with me that if a side torso gets blown off, that arm goes along with it, regardless of remaining armor on it.

Edited by Ryvucz, 21 November 2012 - 09:47 AM.

[DTheSleepless]

Lykaon, on 21 November 2012 - 09:06 AM, said:

Now? the streakcat was only out of style for 2 weeks.

Not sure what game you were playing two weeks back but you were certain to see one streakcat per team at least.Also tripple streak cents and commandos.

Why? because....

Minimal aiming skill required.You can be the worst shot in the galaxy and still hit with all your weapons every shot.
Oh and you could be playing from the moon with 600 ping and still hit.
Streaks are an excellent crutch weapon.A bit of an equalizer for inept pilots.However streaks are open to flagrent abuse by lazy pilots who are actually skilled.

2.5 damage per missile 5 damage per streak SRM2.

The streakcat has what is essentially an LBX30 that always hits with every single shot in the burst.(unless the streaks are back to homming in on CT with every shot,then they have an AC30 with CT homming ammo)

The tripple streak commando and centurions are in effect using sawed off gauss rifles with a 100% chance of landing 15 damage at 270m.

So if you are a hoplessly poor shot and never manage to put shots on the enemy mech (just forget about focusing a specific location) drive a crutch cat.

If you are playing from Mars and need to beat the tremendous latency drive a crutch cat.

If you are to lazy to aim drive a crutch cat.

As a Streak Commando pilot I take exception to this. The Streak Cat is the problem.

Commandos have glass jaws. There's some measure of skill required just to stay alive.

Centurions have one BIG FAT WEAK POINT, and they're slow, and it's easy to hit and blow off.

Saying you can have 600ms ping and keep landing hits is asinine, you do still have to maintain the lock and that can be trickier than you think it is, especially when hunting lights.

[Matte Black]

I like my streaker, I have been using it since I started in CB, It has been OP and also nerfed into the earths core, it seems about right at the moment, yes it is a cheese build, but it is also vulnerable. knock its arms off and it is a zombie.

A1 really is a limited chassis and I do not like LRM's so............

[dal10]

Redshift2k5, on 21 November 2012 - 07:06 AM, said:

4 SSRM cats have a problem if they run headlong into 6-8 enemy mechs; but I suspect the 4 streakcats are singling out a solitary target, vaporizing him with 144 streak missiles(per volley) and then moving to the next easy target.

12 times 4 is 48... not 144...

[Mercules]

Ryvucz, on 21 November 2012 - 09:34 AM, said:

Ah, because me lying is the absolute only explanation, right? Because what exactly do I have to gain if I was lying?

Please explain what other possibility there is. 3 Salvos of 4 misslies total each doing 2.5 damage is (4x2.5)x3. (10)x3=30. Max armor on an arm is 16. You might have lost an arm to that much damage but not both arms and both torsos which is what you stated happened. Were you a victim of your own hyperbole and in reality you took 8 salvos and claimed it was three erronously? Did you maybe launch in a mech with less armor than you claim.

Somewhere you statement of losing that much and having full amour doesn't add up. That is all I am saying.

Edited by Mercules, 21 November 2012 - 09:47 AM.

[Pugnacious Stoat]

Dimento Graven, on 21 November 2012 - 06:59 AM, said:

Tactic that is damn hard to beat: Get in close and run in a tight circle of death. Most lighter 'mechs out there can out circle the turning AND twist speed of medium and larger 'mechs. Keeping that target reticule on is difficult at best, and darn near impossible most of the time due to random movements of the smaller light 'mech, terrain, targeting only working on the INNER 75% of the target box, lag, other enemy 'mechs in the area, your own team's 'mechs, etc.

Half the matches I played last night, the last 'mechs standing were the little lights, which seems odd if it's as bad as your all trying to make it seem.

In all the matches I played last night, I can't remember of a single Command, Jenner, Raven, or heck, Centurian, or Cicada that didn't have at least one SSRM, so it's an obvious short range weapon for them too.

The shorties get all the breaks in this game with the lag shielding, the removal of tripping, ability to run 120+ kph (further exacerbating lag shielding), itty bitty hit boxes...

The problem isn't as bad as you're making it out to be. Sorry, despite what you 'feel' you're 'entitled' to, a light 'mech really isn't supposed to have any realistic one on one chance against medium or larger 'mechs. Wolf packing in this game the best light 'mech tactic I've seen, and scouting, harrasing LRM boats, quick CAP defence (or quick CAP attack to disrupt enemy battle line), but ultimately, you're not designed as a BATTLE LINE 'mech. Never in the history of the BT universe was it so. It's only incomplete implementation in this game that made it even moderately possible.

As soon as we get tripping back in, we'll go back to reasonable numbers of light 'mechs in this game too. In a majority of battles I was in, it seemed that greater than 50% of the 'mechs, on both sides, were light 'mechs. Since the greater majority of people will always tend to go with what's 'easiest' it ought to tell you something about the imbalance that has been slanted toward light 'mechs in this game.

I'm surprised that you saw cicadas running streaks, since none of the cicada variants has any missile hardpoints. But that's not really important. The problem with circling streak boats is that the catapult has an extremely large torso twist range. That makes it difficult to get out of its firing arc. Still, you may be right that tight circling is a viable tactic, even against a competent pilot--I have more experimenting to do. I would have been more cautious with my original post, but most of the streak advocates in this thread seemed to be conceding that there was no way to beat streaks in a light mech at close range, and saying that was fine.

That brings me to the second part of your post, where you say that light mechs should have no realistic chance against larger ones. I disagree with you entirely, and it's got nothing to do with what I feel entitled to as a light mech pilot. In fact, I wouldn't call myself a light mech pilot at all--I played a jenner sometimes in closed beta, but I've spent most of my time since open beta in a hunchback, atlas, or awesome. I got my first cicada several days ago. (I know that's not actually a light mech, but it plays like one). Even when I'm in my atlas, I don't mind the fact that a light mech can pick me apart if I'm not on my game. If I'm not mistaken, PGI has stated several times that they want smaller mechs to be viable in this game, and not just for scouting. The game is much more interesting when you have a variety of mechs fighting on the field, and when players can achieve victory through piloting skill, rather than simply trading alpha strikes to the center torso. Disregarding streaks, do fast mechs have it too easy right now? Absolutely. Lag-shield, no knock-downs, etc. But once those issues are addressed, sufficiently skilled pilots should still be able to make up for a tonnage deficit by utilizing superior maneuverability and speed.

[Ryvucz]

Mercules, on 21 November 2012 - 09:46 AM, said:

Please explain what other possibility there is. 3 Salvos of 4 misslies total each doing 2.5 damage is (4x2.5)x3. (10)x3=30. Max armor on an arm is 16. You might have lost an arm to that much damage but not both arms and both torsos which is what you stated happened. Were you a victim of your own hyperbole and in reality you took 8 salvos and claimed it was three erronously? Did you maybe launch in a mech with less armor than you claim.

Somewhere you statement of losing that much and having full amour doesn't add up. That is all I am saying.

Check my edit above.

[Snib]

Straylight, on 21 November 2012 - 09:14 AM, said:

I still want to see that video, or other conclusive evidence that Streakcats are as "not a problem" as you and other claim them to be.

The burden of proof is on the accuser, yes?

Exactly. Since it's you saying there is a problem, let's see that video.