Jump to content

Discussion: Autocannons


63 replies to this topic

#21 Suko

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 1,226 posts
  • LocationPacific Northwest

Posted 21 November 2012 - 10:16 AM

View PostJacmac, on 21 November 2012 - 09:32 AM, said:

Skill to press a macro button? Are you joking?


View PostLeetskeet, on 21 November 2012 - 09:47 AM, said:


No, get out

Thank you both for your contributions to this topic. Next time try finding something intelligent to add.

#22 Jacmac

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 828 posts

Posted 21 November 2012 - 10:17 AM

View PostReoh, on 21 November 2012 - 10:00 AM, said:


I think that's an acceptable compromise. The mechwarrior still has to pay attention, and there's no macroing issues involved in its execution. It can then still take a short duration to actually unjam.

[edit]

After hitting post it occurred to me, they can just macro the fire key to automatically hit the unjam after each shot.

If the unjam could take 8 seconds, they would have to reduce the jam chance, because 8 seconds every few shots would render the UAC5 useless.

#23 Urza Mechwalker

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Elite Founder
  • 394 posts
  • LocationBrazil, Santa Catarina

Posted 21 November 2012 - 10:21 AM

Funny as I do not have problems with phracs while in my cent. What are people doing? they jsut stand still while fighting? MOVE!!! Get out of the way! Use cover. keep high transversal!!!

I don't think yesterday I got hit by more than 3-4 rounds in a row


Jsut stop fightign with all mechs as if you were in an atlas!

#24 Pendraco

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Wrath
  • Wrath
  • 469 posts
  • LocationSpokane, WA

Posted 21 November 2012 - 10:22 AM

View PostBarushkukor, on 21 November 2012 - 09:38 AM, said:

Last night I saw 3 'Phracts, all AC2/AC5/UAC5 loaded, DECIMATE a 'Phract that was incoming in a matter of seconds. I have no desire to be on the receiving end of that kind of firepower...however...there is a valid place on the battlefield for it. Granted an Atlas or Awesome is going to have trouble running into that kind of massed ballistics but anything with maneuverability can get out of the way...speed is the antidote to AC fire.

As far as the screen shake goes, ya it sux lol. Hopefully they will be fine tuning this as we go along.

View PostBarushkukor, on 21 November 2012 - 09:38 AM, said:

Last night I saw 3 'Phracts, all AC2/AC5/UAC5 loaded, DECIMATE a 'Phract that was incoming in a matter of seconds. I have no desire to be on the receiving end of that kind of firepower...however...there is a valid place on the battlefield for it. Granted an Atlas or Awesome is going to have trouble running into that kind of massed ballistics but anything with maneuverability can get out of the way...speed is the antidote to AC fire.

As far as the screen shake goes, ya it sux lol. Hopefully they will be fine tuning this as we go along.


To be fair, Any 3 'Mechs concentrating firepower on a single 'Mech has that effect. Ever seen 3-4p hunchie small laser boats dissect an Atlas? LOL - It is quite a sight!

#25 Urza Mechwalker

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Elite Founder
  • 394 posts
  • LocationBrazil, Santa Catarina

Posted 21 November 2012 - 10:22 AM

View PostShadowVFX, on 21 November 2012 - 10:16 AM, said:



Thank you both for your contributions to this topic. Next time try finding something intelligent to add.



Hist first post prooved to be more intelignet than your OP> because he stoped and tought on a simple reason why the old mechanics were NOT skill based!

#26 Mavairo

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Liquid Metal
  • Liquid Metal
  • 2,251 posts

Posted 21 November 2012 - 10:23 AM

Honestly ACs are fine. The same rules for fighting Gauss applies to ACs stay mobile and don't be afraid to torso twist if necessary to survive.

The AC2s rock is not -that- offensive. I get pelted by guys running 2 of them regularly and I can maintain my discipline and either get out of their line of fire or put some token rounds down range to hit them. (Or just dump srms/lrms down range for their trouble)

It's best asset is disruption, especially against Gauss kitties with their Kitty Vomit Attack.

Also, the UAC5 is actually Usable now. This a tremendously good thing. Before unless you had a macro programmed it was a totally Pants weapon that only a Chump would field intentionally. Fire Fire Jam... then spend like 5 to 8 seconds (depending on how much the gaming gods liked you) to un jam it. completely hosing the whole point of the weapon. DPS.

Also, I'm enjoying seeing all the cataphracts on the field.... so easy to hit ;) I've been eating Cataphracts like they were metaphorical pez candy for my Dragons all morning.

Edited by Mavairo, 21 November 2012 - 10:24 AM.


#27 SteelPaladin

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Knight Errant
  • Knight Errant
  • 715 posts

Posted 21 November 2012 - 10:25 AM

View PostKai Lae, on 21 November 2012 - 09:46 AM, said:


Reducing knockback for an AC2 wouldn't make it useless. It's something of a sniper weapon (or is supposed to be) designed to engage at long ranges. See Jagermech or blackjack. As for AC20, I wonder what would happen if they put in like it is in tabletop. Getting hit by an AC20 in TT could force a piloting check to see if your mech wasn't literally knocked off it's feet due to the sudden loss of over a ton of armor. Wonder how much whining that would cause ;)


The thing is, it's not really a good sniper weapon. Your example mechs actually illustrate that. The Jagermech has AC/2s primarily as AA weapons. The Blackjack tries to use AC/2s as long-range direct fire support, but even its description explicitly points out that it is actually very mediocre at the role in practice.

Since aircraft are not planned for MWO, AC/2s were repurposed as counter-sniper/disruption weapons, and their combination of high fire rate w/knock is the core component of that capability. They're just not very good direct damage weapons unless they're boated, and that shouldn't be a criteria for a weapon to be effective.

#28 Reoh

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 959 posts

Posted 21 November 2012 - 10:26 AM

View PostJacmac, on 21 November 2012 - 10:17 AM, said:

If the unjam could take 8 seconds, they would have to reduce the jam chance, because 8 seconds every few shots would render the UAC5 useless.


I didn't suggest a value, just that they should look at the data on how much damage the weapons were doing and factor that into the extended cooldown duration. It's supposed to have a drawback for its double-fire rate. If that's already being met currently then no change would be necessary.

#29 Caaboose

    Rookie

  • Knight Errant
  • 5 posts

Posted 21 November 2012 - 10:32 AM

Even in an Atlas head on, a single Cataphract took out my right shoulder + arm in 3 seconds, then I got moving backwards and around the corner (about 4 more seconds) my torso armor was gone and I was red.. by the way he was also across the map.. hitting me like it was nothing.

Idk if its speed, damage or maybe just make it so the shots spray the area instead of always straight perfectly cause 8 UAC/5 shots in a few seconds is pretty gross. and they just keep coming.

#30 Trauglodyte

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,373 posts

Posted 21 November 2012 - 10:42 AM

The AC shake needs to be toned down and the same effect from SRMs needs to be removed (you're not rocked from LRMs). Once it is toned down, we'll be in a better place.

#31 Ceribus

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Legendary Founder
  • Legendary Founder
  • 230 posts
  • LocationVancouver Canada

Posted 21 November 2012 - 10:55 AM

View PostReoh, on 21 November 2012 - 10:00 AM, said:


After hitting post it occurred to me, they can just macro the fire key to automatically hit the unjam after each shot.


So make it that hitting the unjam key 3+ times in a row with no jam it causes a jam

#32 Timelordwho

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 251 posts

Posted 21 November 2012 - 10:55 AM

This just in: taking a cannon shot to the face hurts.

Seriously though, most ACs are much better balanced now barring the UAC shenanigans. It needs a 1.5s/.75s cd and 4.5s unjam time, and it would probably be in line.

Edited by Timelordwho, 21 November 2012 - 11:01 AM.


#33 wanderer

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Civil Servant
  • Civil Servant
  • 11,152 posts
  • LocationStomping around in a giant robot, of course.

Posted 21 November 2012 - 11:03 AM

View PostShadowVFX, on 21 November 2012 - 09:14 AM, said:

Personally, I liked the old unjamming mechanics MWO used for the Ultra AC5's. It felt more skill-based to require a pilot to manually do something to clear a jam, rather than just waiting a few seconds for magic gun gnomes to clear it for you.


Except that most people using UAC's were also using a macro key to instantly unjam the gun instead. No skill required, which is why the manual unjam was replaced with the current arrangement. They also had an overly high jam rate to begin with.

Far as the rest of it goes? I, for one think that we're going to finally see the -4X Cataphract show the potency of autocannons in numbers, the same way the K2 did it for AC/20's and Gauss rifles. Wait and see before worrying too much,

#34 Grimlox

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Bad Company
  • Bad Company
  • 511 posts
  • LocationBC, Canada

Posted 21 November 2012 - 11:28 AM

I found moving laterally from a distance of 100+m while engaging a AC user will cause them to miss much more often than either poking in and out of cover, taking them straight on, or circle strafing under 100m.

I think making more changes to the Uac5 right now is a bit premature. I don't mind the idea of having the jam last longer and putting the unjam sequence back in, but I think it's a bit early to say for sure if anything needs changing at all.

In my experience last night I started off getting destroyed a lot but it was a combination of a bad run with pugs and just figuring out how best to approach the new phracts. Later in the night once a friend of mine came on and dropped with me (me in either a laser/SRM6 awesome 8v or a cat k2 gauss/med lasers and him in a dragon 5n, we were winning majority of matches and usually top half if not top of our team.

#35 Red squirrel

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Legendary Founder
  • Legendary Founder
  • 1,626 posts

Posted 21 November 2012 - 11:43 AM

I agree that the AC2 shake is a bit too strong.

But I do not agree on the UAC5 Jamming. It was changed that way because PGI had no possibility to prevent
players from using macros to insta-unjam.

#36 unwary

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Clan Exemplar
  • Clan Exemplar
  • 184 posts

Posted 21 November 2012 - 11:43 AM

The rocking of the autocannons need to be scaled to their rating (ie: ac2 has the least rocking while the ac20 rocks your world and coconut monkey),

Also the Ultra AC5 should have it's jam delay increased to 6 seconds to 3 seconds. My cataphract with dual ultra ac5s can just fire all day long, One weapon will jam while the other continously fires. Very rarely do they both jam at the exact same time.

#37 PropagandaWar

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Overlord
  • Overlord
  • 2,495 posts
  • LocationCalifornia

Posted 21 November 2012 - 11:48 AM

View PostShadowVFX, on 21 November 2012 - 09:14 AM, said:

Alright everyone, please keep this thread civil. I just want to have a discussion on the Autocannon and for people to discuss it civilly. Let's not throw out "QQ" or anything like that, alright?

I'll start by saying that I was taken by incredible surprise with this latest patch. I assume it has to do that there are a LOT of Cataphracts being used by the players at the moment. This is expected, as it's the newest mech and the current "flavor of the week". However, what I was not expecting was how fast I'm being dropped by AC fire (of all kinds).

I'm NOT claiming they need to be nerfed. Since I have been away from the game for almost a week, it's possible that my skills have atrophied, and it's simply a matter of me not playing effectively. However, I do have my opinions on the matter which I'd like to share here.

I feel that AC2's need to have their knock reduced. I felt they were too annoying even before the recent patch. Being hit by 2+ of these simultaneously makes returning fire difficult, if not impossible. 4 AC2's should have the same shuddering effect as 4 machine guns. Right now it feels like you're getting slammed by Gauss Rifles.

Personally, I liked the old unjamming mechanics MWO used for the Ultra AC5's. It felt more skill-based to require a pilot to manually do something to clear a jam, rather than just waiting a few seconds for magic gun gnomes to clear it for you. Removing the manual unjamming challenge of the UAC5 has made them incredibly ubiquitous on the battlefield. For a weapon that can repeatedly deliver 40 damage onto a target within 8 seconds, I think they need to introduce some kind of deterrent If they no longer require any effort to unjam (other than patience), I feel that they should have their automatic jam-clearing time increased to ~10 seconds. Or better yet, make the automated clearing process take a while (~15 seconds) and/or allow the pilot to manually clear the jam themselves, quicker, if they prefer.

So, that's my thoughts on the topic of AutoCannons currently in MWO. What are your experiences or thoughts on the topic?

The old unjam could easily be handled by Macros. I like this unjam. Also to "manually" unjam a UAC the pilot would have get out of his mech most likely. In reality there would probably be a button (if a computer didnt auto detect the malfuntion already) that the pilot could press. However with that being said you could have the UAC jam then the system rolls every x seconds to see if unjam is successful.

#38 AHZeruel

    Member

  • PipPip
  • Bad Company
  • 46 posts

Posted 21 November 2012 - 11:54 AM

I'd love if AC20'***** would force a 5-10 degree turn on enemies torso or waist. After all its like getting a serious punch in the face, aint it? ;)

#39 Suko

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 1,226 posts
  • LocationPacific Northwest

Posted 21 November 2012 - 11:57 AM

Alright, since so many are fixated on the idea that macros make manual unjamming techniques completely impossible as an option, I have a design suggestion to prevent this:

When the weapon jams, the pilot has to reassign the UAC to a sequence of 3 different weapon groups that are randomly generated. In this example, the pilot would need to change the UAC from it's current group (lets assume 1) and change it to 4, then 6, then 2, then reassign it back to Group 1. The pilot would know what group they have to assign it to to unjam the weapon by having the neessary weapon group highlight/blink/flash until it is assigned to it. Then the next group would flash, etc, until the sequence is complete. If the required groups are randomly generated, there is no way a macro could speed this up, as each group would be different each time the weapon jams.

This is just my solution to the problem of macros overcoming jamming mechanics. I'm not saying that a manual unjamming mechanic is what is best for MWO, but I do feel that the auto-unjamming feature has made UAC5's much more prevalent than they were in previous patches.

Edited by ShadowVFX, 21 November 2012 - 11:57 AM.


#40 Kurayami

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Stone Cold
  • Stone Cold
  • 916 posts
  • LocationSochi

Posted 21 November 2012 - 11:59 AM

new unjam for uac made all autocanons obsolete. its fun to see people who complains about guided weaponry warmly welcome "1 button everything" weapon.





1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users