46 replies to this topic

[Vulpesveritas]

Shepard, on 03 May 2012 - 11:19 AM, said:

Well, I agree that for gaming, a TN monitor will be sufficient but I can't resist trying to shove in an IPS monitor. However, I don't think that going AMD instead of Intel is beneficial, especially since my choice of Intel CPU + mobo is cheaper than your choices in AMD. Now if we can save $50 off the monitor, $40 off Windows (assuming that the TS is a student), then we can upgrade the GPU to a 7870, since I have a $50 buffer in my original suggestion.

If we are going cheaper on the motherboard, I'd put this in; http://www.newegg.co...N82E16813157281
And if he isn't OCing, then the CPUs will be just as fast as each other, however the AMD build will have more upgradability over time with the extra x16 2.0 lane capable, and Piledriver / steamroller CPUs coming in the future to AM3+. (BD is ~25% slower than sandy clock-for clock, but @ 4.2ghz, that's clocked 27% higher. vs ivy it is going to be ~5% slower. And the BD chip is overclockable, unlike the IB chip.) And still slightly cheaper by ~$50.
And even if he's not a student, he can always find a friend who is who isn't building a PC and use their email.

Edited by Vulpesveritas, 03 May 2012 - 11:26 AM.

[Alex MSQ]

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Monitor: Overpriced crap. For gaming you're best off with an Asus TFT.

Maybe in USA Asus is good. But here ASUS is a crap. Also Dell has IPS screen. If you ever used IPS, you will never back to TN or PLS. Here seems to me Dell is the best of any proposal. Surely IPS costs.

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OS: If it's for gaming, home premium is fine. He's not running a server which needs 32GB+

In my company i use Active Directory. So i must always use Ultra. Home Premium is enough.

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ODD: BS

Im russian. I dont understand abbreviations

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RAM: Patriot is american made, I would recommend AMD RAM for the extra quality control. (still made by patriot)

He doesnt need 10-years-working system. He buys it for 5 years max. Chineese or Polish Goodram/Corsair is enough well.

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GPU: The 7850 is almost as fast as the 6970, and is many times faster for highly tessellated games (like CryENGINE 3 is. Which runs MWO)

There are no games that could load 6930 1GB for its maximum perfomance. Except of Crysis on max settings. Anyway the bottleneck is a r/w HDD. Mostly read. So i recommend SSD SATA III for it. Use SSD and buy GPU cheaper.

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CPU/Mobo: I stand by that you're getting better price/performance on AMD.

Maybe you're right. But Intel has better maths. AMD is enough for MWO or WoT. But if you play Paradox games - you will be disappointed by AMD's perfomance.

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HDD: I prefer the Caviar blacks myself. He can get an SSD later, but if he's gaming the storage is less of a concern than the rest of the system.

It will be better to have SSD now, but storage later. He buys it for playing not to store films/photos/music. And HDD is cheaper. But if you use SSD, YOU HAVE TO turn off Windows swap. And place it later on HDD.

[Vulpesveritas]

Alex MSQ, on 03 May 2012 - 11:30 AM, said:

Maybe in USA Asus is good. But here ASUS is a crap. Also Dell has IPS screen. If you ever used IPS, you will never back to TN or PLS. Here seems to me Dell is the best of any proposal. Surely IPS costs.

I actually am using an IPS screen to type this. And I don't mind TFT by any means. And Asus make some of the better TFT screens out there.

Alex MSQ, on 03 May 2012 - 11:30 AM, said:

Im russian. I dont understand abbreviations

Optical disc drive.

Alex MSQ, on 03 May 2012 - 11:30 AM, said:

He doesnt need 10-years-working system. He buys it for 5 years max. Chineese or Polish Goodram/Corsair is enough well.

He doesn't need it, but he might want to support the USA manufacturing base which is already failing because of people buying cheap things instead of quality items.

Alex MSQ, on 03 May 2012 - 11:30 AM, said:

There are no games that could load 6930 1GB for its maximum perfomance. Except of Crysis on max settings. Anyway the bottleneck is a r/w HDD. Mostly read. So i recommend SSD SATA III for it. Use SSD and buy GPU cheaper.

There are a lot of games that can. Do you read reviews? Also a better GPU = better gaming experience. SSD's don't do much for gaming except for loading screens. The 6950 is also not available in the USA unless you're shopping used... and then it's used. So the 7850 is a better buy. Higher performance, less power drain, better for CryENGINE 3, and you can get a new one in box.

Alex MSQ, on 03 May 2012 - 11:30 AM, said:

Maybe you're right. But Intel has better maths. AMD is enough for MWO or WoT. But if you play Paradox games - you will be disappointed by AMD's perfomance.

Actually, since BD implements AVX, AMD and Intel all support the same instruction sets. AMD actually has a few more. Also, there is a reason the Phenom II X6 was called a "number crunching monster"... because of how good it was at integer math. BD still is mostly as good.

Alex MSQ, on 03 May 2012 - 11:30 AM, said:

It will be better to have SSD now, but storage later. He buys it for playing not to store films/photos/music. And HDD is cheaper. But if you use SSD, YOU HAVE TO turn off Windows swap. And place it later on HDD.

It's up to him. SSD wise, I recommend a Samsung 830. He'd be stuck with a 120GB drive though to keep budget.

Edited by Vulpesveritas, 03 May 2012 - 11:44 AM.

[SNOWHOUND]

Its not hard.

you just find out what fits where and smash them together... with a good tug / push but not too hard

If your gaming only and have no intention on doing anyhting else it wont be neccessary to go greater than an i5 core (either ivy bridge or sandybridge - ivy is just newer with a few circuit archetacture changes as far as im aware) im not sure what AMD cores are like becasue i havent used them since the athalon xp since intel tends to benchmark better as of recent days. Though i would like AMD to bring out some form of cpu that can contend with intel to keep the market healthy.

A GPU - currently either nvidia's 560ti or AMDs ATI 6950 are a reasonable price and can handle pretty much any game currently out with no issues whatsoever - at about £160($250ish i think) it doesnt cost an arm and a leg

Note that AMD has released its 7xxx series GPUs and they are less power hungry than current 6xxx cards

http://www.tomshardware.com/

The website above give benchmarks / reviews / opinions for all current tech

a motherboard depends on what CPU you decide on either AMDs AM3/3+ socket or intels 1155 socket. i think current 1155 sandybridge chipset mobos can fit an ivy bridge core but it requires a bios update/reflash before it can be used.
If you plan on OCing - check what bios features the mobos have with them before buying


A case is a case - pick one you like the look of, normally a mid tower provides adequate room inside.
A powersupply in excess of 500W should suffice - go with a well known brand like antec/corsair/ocz etc.

ram is ram - 4-8GB should suffice

if you do some looking around yourself youll soon become familliar with the tech.

good luck

Edited by SNOWHOUND, 03 May 2012 - 11:59 AM.

[Alex MSQ]

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Optical disc drive.

I know ODD. I dont know BS.

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He doesn't need it, but he might want to support the USA manufacturing base which is already failing because of people buying cheap things instead of quality items.

It's an "economy of s h i t". Just a business. You get it anywhere: cars, phones, RAM...

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SSD's don't do much for gaming except for loading screens

Not screens but scenes. Even WoW gets 12 sec. scene on HDD but 1.5 sec. on SSD! Doesnt matter the power of GPU if you cant load it with data.
But if 6930 (NOT 6950) is not avaliable...you have to buy 7850. But it requires 650W if you get 2Gb one. Or buy 1Gb.

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Actually, since BD implements AVX, AMD and Intel all support the same instruction sets. AMD actually has a few more. Also, there is a reason the Phenom II X6 was called a "number crunching monster"... because of how good it was at integer math. BD still is mostly as good.

Floating point maths is not good with AMD. It is more RISC'y and always been. AMD requires more tacts for calculating floating point.

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It's up to him. SSD wise, I recommend a Samsung 830. He'd be stuck with a 120GB drive though to keep budget.

60 or 100 is enough even for game storage.

Edited by Alex MSQ, 03 May 2012 - 12:07 PM.

[Vulpesveritas]

Alex MSQ, on 03 May 2012 - 12:04 PM, said:

I know ODD. I dont know BS.


It's an "economy of s h i t". Just a business. You get it anywhere: cars, phones, RAM...

Thinking like that is why it looks like the USA might go into a second great depresssion.

Alex MSQ, on 03 May 2012 - 12:04 PM, said:

Not screens but scenes. Even WoW gets 12 sec. scene on HDD but 1.5 sec. on SSD! Doesnt matter the power of GPU if you cant load it with data.
But if 6930 (NOT 6950) is not avaliable...you have to buy 7850. But it requires 650W if you get 2Gb one. Or buy 1Gb.

yeah it's not available. And there is no 1GB 7850. Also, it uses less than 200w, so no you don't need such a large PSU.

Alex MSQ, on 03 May 2012 - 12:04 PM, said:

Floating point maths is not good with AMD. It is more RISC'y and always been. AMD requires more tacts for calculating floating point.

Apparently you haven't noticed the FPU calculator is equal on AMD now.

Alex MSQ, on 03 May 2012 - 12:04 PM, said:

60 or 100 is enough even for game storage.

For one or two games and no media, sure.

[Everett]

SSD would be purely for an OS drive (and maybe your two most frequently used games) if you're going to put one in. You'd be throwing in a 1TB HDD at least for storage if you are going that route.

[Shepard]

Everett, on 03 May 2012 - 03:17 PM, said:

SSD would be purely for an OS drive (and maybe your two most frequently used games) if you're going to put one in. You'd be throwing in a 1TB HDD at least for storage if you are going that route.

Adding an SSD will be great, but challenging for this budget. Lets see what we can do about it.

Changes:
Monitor: Hannspree SL231DPB http://www.newegg.co...N82E16824262012 -$80

Together with the $50 buffer in my earlier build, we can squeeze in a 120GB SSD.

SSD: Mushkin Enhanced Chronos 120GB SSD http://www.newegg.co...N82E16820226236 @ $115

[Scanlon]

As far as the CPU goes, what is the difference between the intel i3, i5, and i7? Also what's the difference between Sandy bridge and Ivy bridge?

[Vulpesveritas]

$15 more and there is the Synchronous memory version of it with a 3.5" drive bracket included; http://www.newegg.co...N82E16820226318

And benchmarks show the synchronous memory to be around 30-50% faster than asynchronous memory in an SSD. Well worth the extra $15 imo.

Scanlon, on 04 May 2012 - 05:27 AM, said:

As far as the CPU goes, what is the difference between the intel i3, i5, and i7? Also what's the difference between Sandy bridge and Ivy bridge?

The Intel i3 is a dual core processor with hyperthreading, which means while it has two cores it is able to process an extra thread* per core if the cores have extra available resources available.
The Intel i5 is a true quad core processor, able to handle 4 threads all the time.
The Intel i7 is a quad core processor with hyperthreading, so it can handle up to 8 threads.
The main issue with hyperthreading is the second thread is usually only about 30% efficient vs an actual core, and if the core is fully at load then hyperthreading does no good.
Ivy bridge is a die shrink (smaller version) of sandy bridge, and uses less power at stock and has better integrated graphics. (which still suck for gaming. AMD APUs have the only integrated graphics anywhere worth it for gaming.) Also, Ivy bridge is 5-20% faster than Sandy bridge clock-for-clock.
However, due to the new tri-gate technology (3d transistors instead of a flat surface.) and Intel using a cheaper heat transfer system on the chips, they are horrible for overclocking. Sandy bridge is able to reach overclocks where the performance per clock difference doesn't matter, and some extreme cooling systems can reach clocks on sandy which beat the best OC'd Ivy bridge CPUs. (Ivy has a max air/water overclock of 4.6/4.8ghz.)

*Threads are basically lines of instruction code to be implemented by the CPU, if you didn't know. (for more info, here is a quick summary; http://arstechnica.c...-cpu-thread.ars )

Edited by Vulpesveritas, 04 May 2012 - 05:37 AM.

[Alex MSQ]

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Thinking like that is why it looks like the USA might go into a second great depresssion.

excessive reliability creates overproduction -> depression anyway

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yeah it's not available. And there is no 1GB 7850. Also, it uses less than 200w, so no you don't need such a large PSU.

Going Intel i5 way you need 650W. Going AMD or Intel i3 way 500-550W is enough.

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The Intel i3 is a dual core processor with hyperthreading, which means while it has two cores it is able to process an extra thread per core if the cores have extra available resources available.
The Intel i5 is a true quad core processor, able to handle 4 threads all the time.
The Intel i7 is a quad core processor with hyperthreading, so it can handle up to 8 threads.
The main issue with hyperthreading is the second thread is usually only about 30% efficient vs an actual core, and if the core is fully at load then hyperthreading does no good.

At first - forget overclocking if you are not familiar to IT tech.
At second - the only games use 2 cores are ARMA, Crysis, TES4 Oblivion. So for cheap systems i3 is enough, but ideal way - 4 cores like Intel i5 or 3 cores like AMD. CryENGINE 3 uses 2 cores.
There are no games use more than 2 cores.

Edited by Alex MSQ, 04 May 2012 - 06:13 AM.

[Scanlon]

Thanks a lot gentlemen, I'll do a bit of personal research on all of the recomended components and ask any questions. I'm really looking forward to this.

[Vexgrave Lars]

Scanlon.. Now that you are informed on what your looking for...

See what you can find on Craigslist/Ebay that meets the basic criteria of what you want.. Never know when someone needs rent money and is selling a decent rig, cheap for fast money. ALWAYS TEST WHAT YOUR BUYING AND ALWAYS VERIFY WHAT YOUR GETTING IN THE DEVICE MANAGER, and Check the system logs for errors. If you get lucky and find something close to what you want, bid on it. This can get you an up-gradable rig (remember no proprietary stuff, no Dells or HPs). Then upgrade the parts that are a concern.. Video/Ram etc..

Sure you can go newegg and such.. but an hour of legwork may save you a couple hundred bucks. Scored a nice rig this way 2 Xmas's ago for the wife doing this.

Just remember if you doubt the veracity of the deal, seller, or rig.. just walk away. But can't hurt to look.

Edited by Vexgrave Lars, 04 May 2012 - 06:30 AM.

[Vulpesveritas]

Alex MSQ, on 04 May 2012 - 05:51 AM, said:

excessive reliability creates overproduction -> depression anyway

Which means that companies need to sell products which perform better to the extent so that they will sell them to people who have an old product, pushing forward innovation and benefiting mankind.

Alex MSQ, on 04 May 2012 - 05:51 AM, said:

Going Intel i5 way you need 650W. Going AMD or Intel i3 way 500-550W is enough.

What are you smoking? Are you claiming that an Intel i5 processor, which consumes 95/77 watts maximum without overclocking, plus a 175 watt GPU, is going to tax a decent 500w power supply on a single 12v rail? An effective 450w on a 12v rail is more than enough to power a 275w system dude. (that's your CPU+GPU) Unless you're running tesla arcs on your motherboard or something.

Alex MSQ, on 04 May 2012 - 05:51 AM, said:

At first - forget overclocking if you are not familiar to IT tech.
At second - the only games use 2 cores are ARMA, Crysis, TES4 Oblivion. So for cheap systems i3 is enough, but ideal way - 4 cores like Intel i5 or 3 cores like AMD. CryENGINE 3 uses 2 cores.
There are no games use more than 2 cores.

Yes there are games that use more than two cores. Cryengine 3 can use up to eight, and is solidly quad-threaded. (look at dual vs quad core benchmarks for Crysis 2.) http://www.pcgamesha...imization/News/
http://www.neoseeker...to-8-cpu-cores/

(note the differences between the AMD quad cores vs the AMD dual cores, and how the AMD Hexacore only gains 2FPS vs a quad core- this shows the engine is using extra threads but only marginally, same with the i5 vs i7. Also notice the 10-20% difference in IPC [Instructions per clock] between Intel and AMD. Also note that most of these AMD cpus are no longer able to be purchased, as they have been replaced by newer CPUs. DirectX 11 and subsequent patches have improved performance since this was taken as well.)
Battlefield 3 also uses more. Apparently you're behind the edge here as many other newer games are multithreaded.
Also important to note, is having extra cores means that multitasking will be better if you are running a ton of programs at a time.

Edited by Vulpesveritas, 04 May 2012 - 07:00 AM.

[Alex MSQ]

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What are you smoking? Are you claiming that an Intel i5 processor, which consumes 95/77 watts maximum without overclocking, plus a 175 watt GPU, is going to tax a decent 500w power supply on a single 12v rail? An effective 450w on a 12v rail is more than enough to power a 275w system dude. (that's your CPU+GPU) Unless you're running tesla arcs on your motherboard or something.

Have you ever got 192V/48Hz in your outlet?

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Yes there are games that use more than two cores. Cryengine 3 can use up to eight, and is solidly quad-threaded. (look at dual vs quad core benchmarks for Crysis 2.

56/60/61 on Intel means use different FSB frequency causing difference in DMA AMD is the same. Maybe there is some difference in using HyperThreading in maths. Near no difference. Overclocking gives more in effectiveness/$.

Be sure in the same FSB frequency. It fluences upon DMA speed.

System engineering is my occupation

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Also important to note, is having extra cores means that multitasking will be better if you are running a ton of programs at a time.

it's the main cause of buying 3-4-8-core.

Edited by Alex MSQ, 04 May 2012 - 07:35 AM.

[JackDeth]

The best advice I can throw in here...is to get the case and power supply that will serve your needs for the longest time possible.
They are the backbone of your system....all other parts will be replaced on an on-going basis.
I went with a NZXT case (full tower) so that I will never be constrained by size problems with longer vid cards or different Motherboards.
This case has lots of room for fans ( I have 8 installed running at slower speeds for noise) and a modular power supply to keep the cables down to a minimum.
Yes...a little more expensive...but I will never have to buy another.
It's like the old Stereo systems....you can drive a bad speaker with a good amp...and get bad sound....or....get great speakers and drive them with a so-so amp and get good sound.
Always look to the future...don't get stuck on todays gear....tomorrow will bring lower prices on expensive pieces today.
Jack

[Shepard]

Alex MSQ, on 04 May 2012 - 05:51 AM, said:

Going Intel i5 way you need 650W. Going AMD or Intel i3 way 500-550W is enough.

Vulpesveritas, on 04 May 2012 - 06:43 AM, said:

What are you smoking? Are you claiming that an Intel i5 processor, which consumes 95/77 watts maximum without overclocking, plus a 175 watt GPU, is going to tax a decent 500w power supply on a single 12v rail? An effective 450w on a 12v rail is more than enough to power a 275w system dude. (that's your CPU+GPU) Unless you're running tesla arcs on your motherboard or something.

Alex MSQ, on 04 May 2012 - 07:33 AM, said:

Have you ever got 192V/48Hz in your outlet?

What Vulpesveritas says about power supply is true. You don't normally need a very highly rated power supply, you really just need a good one. The Rosewill one I recommended is more than enough to power a non-overclocked system, even if you choose the 125W TDP AMD FX-4170. Intel's i3, i5, i7, all draw less power than the FX-4170. I don't see why you need a 650W for an i5 when the Rosewill 530W 80 plus will give you more than enough power, given that even with the AMD chip the whole system won't draw more than 400W.

Now if you overclock, it's a whole different ballgame...

[Vulpesveritas]

Alex MSQ, on 04 May 2012 - 07:33 AM, said:

Have you ever got 192V/48Hz in your outlet?

Let me point out something. See this 550w PSU? http://www.newegg.co...N82E16817207013
Note the 12v rail, which powers the CPU and GPU. Watts are amperage x voltage. With the 12v rail being as stated, 12v, and 44 amps on the rail, this comes to 528w. Given it's 80+ Bronze certification, it should never be less than 70% power efficient, ever. Which comes to 370w. Even at the minimum of power efficiency, that is giving a clear 100w above the maximum power consumption of CPU+GPU with an i5+Radeon HD 7870. Unless you are claiming that the motherboard, RAM, HDD / SDD, ODD, fans, and interface devices are going to use that much wattage. On the 12v rail no less, when some of the components take advantage of the remaining wattage on the 3v and 5v rails. (Unless he's using delta fans or a fan-case.)

Alex MSQ, on 04 May 2012 - 07:33 AM, said:

56/60/61 on Intel means use different FSB frequency causing difference in DMA AMD is the same. Maybe there is some difference in using HyperThreading in maths. Near no difference. Overclocking gives more in effectiveness/$.

Be sure in the same FSB frequency. It fluences upon DMA speed.

Right, however a phenom II X2 and an X4 have the same FSB frequency, and the X4 performs nearly twice as well. Which clearly shows those extra threads are being used.

Alex MSQ, on 04 May 2012 - 07:33 AM, said:

System engineering is my occupation

And I'm 19, have been building computers since I was 6, spend much of my time looking at benchmarks and giving tech support online, and am working towards a career in GPU design.

Alex MSQ, on 04 May 2012 - 07:33 AM, said:

it's the main cause of buying 3-4-8-core.

For much of the time, yes.

Edited by Vulpesveritas, 04 May 2012 - 08:25 AM.

[SNOWHOUND]

Scanlon, on 04 May 2012 - 05:27 AM, said:

As far as the CPU goes, what is the difference between the intel i3, i5, and i7? Also what's the difference between Sandy bridge and Ivy bridge?

This article should shed some light - utimatetly not alot of difference between the ivy and sandy bridge archetectures as far as i know:

http://www.tomshardw...3770k,3181.html

Edited by SNOWHOUND, 04 May 2012 - 08:35 AM.

[Scanlon]

http://youtu.be/Q42tEnt9GWg