125 replies to this topic

[FaustianQ]

Sven Svenson, on 07 May 2012 - 12:33 PM, said:

I may be wrong but I believe what is meant by a burst fire AC20 is a gun that still does 20pts damage but in a stream of fire not a single shot. The Ultra AC20 on the other hand fire two 20 pt shots per turn at cost of increased weight double heat and double ammo use

Not a personal fan of that idea specifically, since that really calls into question why AC/2s and 5s would be better at AAA.

[Sven Svenson]

FaustianQ, on 07 May 2012 - 12:40 PM, said:

Not a personal fan of that idea specifically, since that really calls into question why AC/2s and 5s would be better at AAA.

Ok again I am not one of the hardcore experts but I believe ac2 and ac5 only got an AA bonuse from two thing there longer range and ability to be mounted directly to shoulder so they could swing directly up and even over to rear which in tt gave them an AA bonus.

[JadeTimberwolf]

Other: Different auto-cannon styles should have different firing styles. Example standard AC/s should fire like an automatic rifle with a few second delay after each shot, Ultras should fire the same but with a shorter delay, LBX should be burst fire, and Rotary should be like a machine gun. Yet if memory serves it shall be a few years yet before we encounter Rotary.

[neodym]

auto means automatic............. if something fires burst it can fire full auto too,even m4a1 of usa army with its 850rounds per minute full auto is used in bursts,not becose they cant fire full auto,but becose of heat,recoil and ammo


what I want to say is,that when something is used 99% of time in burst style doesnt take away fact that its fundamentaly FULL AUTO weapon,not semi auto.... theres nothing like burst auto,burst is just control of full auto,if you have any brain its clear as sun that these autocannons are full auto capable,but I would still burst fire

Edited by neodym, 07 May 2012 - 12:59 PM.

[Gun Bear]

I like it firing one single shot, that way you get all the damage dealt to one place, which is the reason to use most ballistic weapons.

[neodym]

JadeTimberwolf, on 07 May 2012 - 12:52 PM, said:

Other: Different auto-cannon styles should have different firing styles. Example standard AC/s should fire like an automatic rifle with a few second delay after each shot, Ultras should fire the same but with a shorter delay, LBX should be burst fire, and Rotary should be like a machine gun. Yet if memory serves it shall be a few years yet before we encounter Rotary.

+1

[Gun Bear]

neodym, on 07 May 2012 - 12:59 PM, said:

auto means automatic............. if something fires burst it can fire full auto too,even m4a1 of usa army with its 850rounds per minute full auto is used in bursts,not becose they cant fire full auto,but becose of heat,recoil and ammo


what I want to say is,that when something is used 99% of time in burst style doesnt take away fact that its fundamentaly FULL AUTO weapon,not semi auto.... theres nothing like burst auto,burst is just control of full auto,if you have any brain its clear as sun that these autocannons are full auto capable,but I would still burst fire

A 1911, and a Glock are called Auto Pistols but they are in truth semi automatic.

[Sassori]

The AC's should /not/ have the same Damage over Time, or the same DPS, otherwise there's no point but to pick the longest range and snipe away with AC-20 damage at beyond missile range.

AC's should fire a burst, BUT, that burst needs to be in the SPACE OF HALF A SECOND OR LESS. A rip roar of bullets that is short, powerful, and focused so that the damage doesn't get spread out.

This is the power of the AC, it loads all that damage into the same spot, and why AC's are worth their weight (In addition to their low heat).

[Felicitatem Parco]

There is almost no reason in the world for a large, combat vehicle-mounted 30mm autocanon to be mechanically restricted at firing 1 bullet at a time. Any platform used for low-caliber Autocannon sniping one-bullet-at-a-time would also be capable of rapid fire for defensive purposes.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 07 May 2012 - 01:06 PM.

[Gun Bear]

Christopher Dayson, on 07 May 2012 - 01:04 PM, said:

The AC's should /not/ have the same Damage over Time, or the same DPS, otherwise there's no point but to pick the longest range and snipe away with AC-20 damage at beyond missile range.

AC's should fire a burst, BUT, that burst needs to be in the SPACE OF HALF A SECOND OR LESS. A rip roar of bullets that is short, powerful, and focused so that the damage doesn't get spread out.

This is the power of the AC, it loads all that damage into the same spot, and why AC's are worth their weight (In addition to their low heat).

But that wouldn't deal direct damage the place you hit unless they coded it so the ammo fired would all curve to the same location. Think about it for a second, you have two moving platforms possibly moving in directions parallel to each other, if your AC 20 fires 20 rounds in a half a second what are the chances that all 20 rounds are going to hit? What are the chances that all 20 rounds will impact the same place? It don't matter if it is 20 rounds, 5 rounds, 4 rounds, 3 rounds... that defeats the purpose of DIRECT DAMAGE. Lasers slice across their target, AC's fire straight into the target to deal damage to one specific spot.

[Mad Hulk]

Anyone ever play the battletech board game? When were those LBX autocannons introduced? I always picutred these as shotgun style autocanons.

[Slazer]

So i looked it up in the Citytech Modul description.

The only AC what shot multiple Round is the ultra AC, if it hits it has to throw aginst the two Missile tab. of the amount of hits.

This says if the AC is in normal auto fire it gives one shot=round in a playround, if you use Ultra rules it can fires two shots in one playround.

So every normal AC fires one round per given time and that is why it punshes its complete Dmg in one spot.

Thats why the German AA Tank Gepard has a rate of fire of 1100 per Minute so he actually could have a chance to hit a plane flying with 500km/h or more with atleast one of his explosive rounds.

Sure this isn't writen in stone!

The AC could work just like the 30mm Gatling of the Warthog fireing some 70 rounds/second into an tank. And that Sound is pure evil


Keep it rolling.

[Ravager AI]

One thing I did notice in the new videos posted on IGN is this: AC 20, when fired does so in a single round. Now I have no idea if they have firing modes to be able to fire bursts, but the fast reload/recycle speed might indicate that it only has one mode. Albeit one that lets you fire once every three seconds or so.

[XTRMNTR2K]

Another reason why I don't think they should be restricted to single-shot only is the fact that especially the larger ACs are geared towards less range and higher damage. It makes only sense; long-ranged weapons like Gauss Rifles are optimized for getting that one shot at long range right and dealing the highest possible amount of damage in one shot.

Autocannons, on the other hand, are the perfect brawling weapons. If, in the heat of close-combat, you miss a shot, it's not the end of the world, as your AC keeps spitting death and destruction upon your enemies as long as your ammo lasts. It should also be noted that IF a burst-fire or fully automatic mode of fire is adopted, the potential and actual damage efficiency will of course vary due to potentially spreading the fire over several components.

"Christopher Dayson said:

AC's should fire a burst' date=' BUT, that burst needs to be in the [b']SPACE OF HALF A SECOND OR LESS[/b]. A rip roar of bullets that is short, powerful, and focused so that the damage doesn't get spread out.

Agreed - the RoF during the burst needs to be sufficiently high so it doesn't spread too much.

By the way - if memory serves right, all autocannons in MW3 fired in bursts. Aside from their low projectile speed (at least from my memory) I don't see what was wrong about that... MW4 is a different matter, of course; iirc they used a hitscan method similar to lasers but only looked like they were firing salvos, with Ultra ACs simply firing twice in a row.


Anyway, in regards to the gameplay footage that has been shown until now, I would like to say that the projectile and impact graphics don't give off that "AC" feeling, single-shot or not. So far it looks more like a grenade launcher to me (slow, ballistic projectile and large fiery explosion? Check!). Other than that one all weapons seem spot-on to me (though PPCs could look slightly flashier). That's a whole different topic, of course.

Edited by XTRMNTR2K, 07 May 2012 - 01:53 PM.

[errorabbit]

Christopher Dayson, on 07 May 2012 - 01:04 PM, said:

The AC's should /not/ have the same Damage over Time, or the same DPS, otherwise there's no point but to pick the longest range and snipe away with AC-20 damage at beyond missile range.

AC's should fire a burst, BUT, that burst needs to be in the SPACE OF HALF A SECOND OR LESS. A rip roar of bullets that is short, powerful, and focused so that the damage doesn't get spread out.

This is the power of the AC, it loads all that damage into the same spot, and why AC's are worth their weight (In addition to their low heat).

Yeah, from what I've read off the books, that seems more accurate. But I can see that the people on this forum and apparently the devs find it more important to transport the TT rules for the AC20 than the fluff. I can understand that. It's probably better for the balance.
I still voted for burst fire, in fact, I wouldn't care if the sound and visuals are just fluff and internally, the damage is applied like a one shot. *shrug*
I wouldn't mind short bursts either, but it seems the devs already decided that the lasers are gonna do the burst/DoT thing and single damage application per shot is what they decided on the ballistic weapons to feature.

I'm okay with this, if it means the different weapon types are now all worth their money/weight in their own right, and differ in playstyle, even though I will miss the sound and feel of autocannon burstfire from MW4 and MW3.

[00dlez]

Describe or depict it however they like, but the result should be a "single shot" or focused damage effect - anything else is a rotarty. Look at the fire at about :45 sseconds below.

[Carl Wrede]

It should not be hard to do this right. Autocanons fire bursts in canon and do all their damage at the same location.

Just apply all the damage to the first shot and let the graphics and sounds show a full burst fire. All done according to canon.

[Mike Silva]

00dlez, on 07 May 2012 - 02:12 PM, said:

Describe or depict it however they like, but the result should be a "single shot" or focused damage effect - anything else is a rotarty. Look at the fire at about :45 sseconds below.

That's a Zeus, which has an LRM-15 mounted in its right arm. So at :45 in that video what you saw were missiles.

*edit* are you talking about the :39 mark where it was firing the AC/5 from it's left arm?

Edited by Mike Silva, 07 May 2012 - 04:03 PM.

[Shintoryu]

AC's have been described from day 1 in battle tech as fireing a stream of shells. To me that means a burst of rounds. If you look back to the description of the good ol' Hetzer "with a burst of 10 hyper velocity slugs the Crusher fires, it can savage any mech in 10 seconds." The Mechbuster states that it's AC/20 fire a burst of 4 rounds. I say keep autocannons as they are ment to be. The damage is focused, but if someone is good enough the can turn the mech as they are getting hit and spread the damage. I would think the smaller the round the faster the burst. a 4 round burst of ac/20 fire should be like 2 secongs long.

Edited by Shintoryu, 07 May 2012 - 04:23 PM.

[Motionless]

Pull trigger --> 31st Century cannonball goes flying --> wait for recycle --> repeat