146 replies to this topic

[Super Mono]

Max Liao, on 29 November 2012 - 09:50 AM, said:

If you can't wait to 'earn' your keep, to grow and improve your station (e.g. 'Mech) over time, then that says a lot about you - and not in a good way.

Yes, games are supposed to be fun, but a lot of the fun in games is the journey. Unfortunately most games nowadays take the journey away ... most games nowadays suck.

Yes, the journey of playing in crappy trial mechs for a whole day to afford the actual fun part of the game, that's a journey worth taking. Then once you get to the fun part you have to continue playing the crappy trial mechs to afford upkeep while playing a simple arena shooter, that's great game design.

[Mercules]

QuantumButler, on 29 November 2012 - 09:33 AM, said:

Yes go play an unfun beercan joke of a mech for several hours, pure genius.

OR, you could give PGI some money and have a different mech RIGHT NOW! It's almost like they planned a grind so people would consider spending money to buy mechs. Weird that.

[Mu]

Joseph Mallan, on 29 November 2012 - 09:32 AM, said:

Lets see. The Atlas can carry just shy of 20 tons of armor (5 tons less than a fully functioning Commando) and it can average around 40-45 tons of weapons (the weight of a Cicada IIRC). Those two stats alone kinda put it in the Atlas into the Ultima range for THIS game. Until you can afford to maintain an atlas you should not buy one. I bought a Founders package, It allowed me to have the Atlas I have. See what I'm saying in real life as well as in games you play what you can afford. Nothing is free, pay or grind.

I don't play TF2 but if it costs that much to fire for 12 seconds I hope I have enough money to fire it for a day cause that's one expensive weapon to use.

Jesus christ. Let me spell it out for you.

The Atlas' balancing factor is not cost. It's the fact that it is slow is a brick and turns like one too. It is powerful in its role, not an instant win button you can only bust out when you want to dip into the treasury. Its giant hitbox is a gauss rifle magnet and they can't get out of bad situations as easily as other mechs - you walk forward and kill what's in front of you until you go down, that's your (usual) job as the heaviest assault mech. Since you can't escape easily, you are extremely vulnerable to focus fire and flanking. I could bring up the horrible molestation that occurs when a bad Atlas goes up against a good Jenner, but a good Atlas knows how to deal with that situation. He also knows that he's not invincible and he needs to work in his niche, not wander around out in the open with no support.

If the Atlas is too strong in all situations, then it should be given other weaknesses or other mechs should have their roles strengthened (scouting etc). Not make it super expensive to run so that the guy who spent money on the game can get his jollies rolling over the poor peasants for a couple rounds.

[QuantumButler]

Max Liao, on 29 November 2012 - 09:50 AM, said:

If you can't wait to 'earn' your keep, to grow and improve your station (e.g. 'Mech) over time, then that says a lot about you - and not in a good way.

Yes, games are supposed to be fun, but a lot of the fun in games is the journey. Unfortunately most games nowadays take the journey away ... most games nowadays suck.

Most journeys in games aren't hell marches where they strip you of all your clothes and footwear and force you to trudge iover miles of broken glass and rusty nails before you obtain your socks and boots [first crappy mech] and then more miles over the same terrain to get clothes.

That's a very accurate representation of the current free new player experience in MWO, the fact that there is a 'journey' isn't the problem, the problem is that said journey is NOT AT ALL FUN FOR THE AVERAGE PERSON that is the problem.

[KhanCipher]

Joseph Mallan, on 29 November 2012 - 09:32 AM, said:

Lets see. The Atlas can carry just shy of 20 tons of armor (5 tons less than a fully functioning Commando) and it can average around 40-45 tons of weapons (the weight of a Cicada IIRC). Those two stats alone kinda put it in the Atlas into the Ultima range for THIS game. Until you can afford to maintain an atlas you should not buy one. I bought a Founders package, It allowed me to have the Atlas I have. See what I'm saying in real life as well as in games you play what you can afford. Nothing is free, pay or grind.

and i can tell you how quickly i've droped a few atlas' with my hunchback with another med or heavy mech beside me shooting the atlas. The Atlas isn't the BFG unless it can handle it's own, which in most cases it needs a team to make one even remotely useable. Also i've been able to core an Atlas with my 4P hunchback in 10-20 sec by myself no problem.

[QuantumButler]

Mercules, on 29 November 2012 - 09:54 AM, said:

OR, you could give PGI some money and have a different mech RIGHT NOW! It's almost like they planned a grind so people would consider spending money to buy mechs. Weird that.

Who the **** gets into a game, runs a crappy trial mech, dies immediately, and then thinks "oh I should go drop money on this game I had no fun in maybe that will make it fun" Insane people or people with a vested interest in BT, IE: not very many people.

The average person goes and plays something that is fun immediately instead.

[SteelPaladin]

QuantumButler, on 29 November 2012 - 09:56 AM, said:

Who the **** gets into a game, runs a crappy trial mech, dies immediately, and then thinks "oh I should go drop money on this game I had no fun in maybe that will make it fun" Insane people or people with a vested interest in BT, IE: not very many people.

The average person goes and plays something that is fun immediately instead.

Good F2P models get you to pay money because you're having fun. Bad models try to make you pay in order to have fun.

Someone who is invested in a product they enjoy is far more likely to cough up (and do it GLADLY, the value of which is so often underestimated) than someone who gets a stick to the face and a hand held out right at the gate. Make your customers feel well treated and like they're getting value for their dollar and they'll give you more of them than if they feel like they're being mugged. Somehow, this is constantly ignored.

Edited by SteelPaladin, 29 November 2012 - 10:02 AM.

[Max Liao]

QuantumButler, on 29 November 2012 - 09:54 AM, said:

Most journeys in games aren't hell marches where they strip you of all your clothes and footwear and force you to trudge iover miles of broken glass and rusty nails before you obtain your socks and boots [first crappy mech] and then more miles over the same terrain to get clothes.

That's a very accurate representation of the current free new player experience in MWO, the fact that there is a 'journey' isn't the problem, the problem is that said journey is NOT AT ALL FUN FOR THE AVERAGE PERSON that is the problem.

Well then, the 'average person' (using your definition) is a selfish, lazy, entitlement driven, instant gratification buffoon.

I'm having perfect fun with my Founders mess turned off. And I didn't have any money banked up either. So, while the journey is a slow one, every 15 minutes or so I get to blow up (or be blown up by) more pixel-'mechs, so I'm perfectly okay with that. I get to play, and at some point in the future I'll be able to upgrade my current or buy a new 'Mech. I fail to see the issue.

And if this offends you, find a mirror.

Edited by Max Liao, 29 November 2012 - 10:02 AM.

[QuantumButler]

SteelPaladin, on 29 November 2012 - 09:59 AM, said:

Good F2P models get you to pay money because you're having fun. Bad models try to make you pay in order to have fun. Somehow, this is constantly ignored.

MWO falls into a third category where you won't have fun even if you pay because you'll get mad at everything about the game but you'll be stuck forever anyway because of Stockholm Syndrome that prevents you from just up and leaving.

Max Liao, on 29 November 2012 - 10:01 AM, said:

Well then, the 'average person' (using your definition) is a selfish, lazy, entitlement driven, instant gratification buffoon.

I'm having perfect fun with my Founders mess turned off. And I didn't have any money banked up either. So, while the journey is a slow one, every 15 minutes or so I get to blow up (or be blown up by) more pixel-'mechs, so I'm perfectly okay with that. I get to play, and at some point in the future I'll be able to upgrade my current or buy a new 'Mech. I fail to see the issue.

And if this offends you, find a mirror.

you already have at least four real mechs with permanernt cbill boosters on them, I'm talking spacepoors who have nothing at all to start with.

This literally does not effect me either, I have 16 mechs, all the mechs I ever want to play pretty much, I'm thinking about new players, something you apparently can't or won't think about.

Edited by QuantumButler, 29 November 2012 - 10:05 AM.

[Max Liao]

QuantumButler, on 29 November 2012 - 10:03 AM, said:

MWO falls into a third category where you won't have fun even if you pay because you'll get mad at everything about the game but you'll be stuck forever anyway because of Stockholm Syndrome that prevents you from just up and leaving.



you already have at least four real mechs with permanernt cbill boosters on them, I'm talking spacepoors who have nothing at all to start with.

Yes, I paid for that advantage. Other people can do the same or they can play and afford a 'Mech in due course.

[verybad]

They should make us hire accountants in game, that will make it a lot mroe fun!

[Mercules]

QuantumButler, on 29 November 2012 - 09:56 AM, said:

Who the **** gets into a game, runs a crappy trial mech, dies immediately, and then thinks "oh I should go drop money on this game I had no fun in maybe that will make it fun" Insane people or people with a vested interest in BT, IE: not very many people.

The average person goes and plays something that is fun immediately instead.

Who does that? No one. But I also think your scenario to be absolutely ridiculous. More likely they play the crappy trial mechs and are intelligent enough to understand that trial in most cases means "lacking what I would get if I purchased". For example, a trial subscription to various anti-virus usually runs out after a month and might lack an E-mail filter. A trial program for a picture viewer software might not let you run slideshows. A trial MP3 ripper program might only rip the odd number songs off a Music CD.

People are smart enough to understand that "trial" and "limited" are the same thing. You use a limited mech, you get limited results.

[QuantumButler]

Max Liao, on 29 November 2012 - 10:05 AM, said:

Yes, I paid for that advantage. Other people can do the same or they can play and afford a 'Mech in due course.

Most people aren't insane grognards like us who have 120bux to drop on a game they hate. They won't spend a single cent on MWO and will just go play something fun like Hat Fortress 2, world of Hats, or even World of Tanks which has a less punishing, more rewarding system than MWO and is already widely called a p2w grindfest.

Mercules, on 29 November 2012 - 10:07 AM, said:

Who does that? No one. But I also think your scenario to be absolutely ridiculous. More likely they play the crappy trial mechs and are intelligent enough to understand that trial in most cases means "lacking what I would get if I purchased". For example, a trial subscription to various anti-virus usually runs out after a month and might lack an E-mail filter. A trial program for a picture viewer software might not let you run slideshows. A trial MP3 ripper program might only rip the odd number songs off a Music CD.

People are smart enough to understand that "trial" and "limited" are the same thing. You use a limited mech, you get limited results.

you have a higher opnion of the average person's intelligence than I.

[Super Mono]

Mercules, on 29 November 2012 - 10:07 AM, said:

Who does that? No one. But I also think your scenario to be absolutely ridiculous. More likely they play the crappy trial mechs and are intelligent enough to understand that trial in most cases means "lacking what I would get if I purchased". For example, a trial subscription to various anti-virus usually runs out after a month and might lack an E-mail filter. A trial program for a picture viewer software might not let you run slideshows. A trial MP3 ripper program might only rip the odd number songs off a Music CD.

People are smart enough to understand that "trial" and "limited" are the same thing. You use a limited mech, you get limited results.

I think what most people will understand is that using a trial mech sucks and that this game sucks so they should spend their time doing something else.

There are millions of things people can spend their free-time on, so they need a very good reason to want to spend it with MWO. Forcing them to commit to an unfun grind for several hours upfront is not how that's done.

[KhanCipher]

Mercules, on 29 November 2012 - 09:54 AM, said:

OR, you could give PGI some money and have a different mech RIGHT NOW! It's almost like they planned a grind so people would consider spending money to buy mechs. Weird that.

i think the requirements for paying into a f2p game should be

1. I'm having fun. which the trial mech grind feels ok... to a BT/MW fan, can't say the same to a person that doesn't know the IP

2. I don't feel forced to pay. sorry, but the mech exp system makes it look like a very painfully obvious cash grab

3. The prices low... "The price of MC is too damn high!" but really at the current prices either A). i'll buy only mechbays and maybe paint my mechs, or B). i'll buy only the $100 pack and even then i'd feel ripped off.

4. The Free player mechanics don't go out of their way to screw over the free play as much as possible. Which on the trial mechs... that's not a great way to introduce your player to the game, hell in WoT you get into a T2 tank faster than you get into your own mech here

Edited by KhanCipher, 29 November 2012 - 10:15 AM.

[verybad]

It's not lazy or entitled to be hesitant about wishing to drop $15.00 for your own Commando in the game $30.00 for anything larger.

Unless someone is already deeply immersed in this universe (like most of us posting on this thread), that's a large chunk of money for what is essentially just a piece of DLC. WHile the artwork on the mechs is very nice, DLC in other games is usually about $3.00-$5.00 for singular items.

The entry costl for this game is very difficult for outsiders to be enthusiastic about.

Edited by verybad, 29 November 2012 - 10:18 AM.

[KhanCipher]

verybad, on 29 November 2012 - 10:15 AM, said:

Unless someone is already deeply immersed in this universe (like most of us posting on this thread), that's a large chunk of money for what is essentially just a piece of DLC.

exactly, even for a BT fan like myself i find it hard to want to pay anything unless it's mechbays


ummm, how'd we go from "repairs aren't high enough" to "the price of MC is too damn high!"?

[LordBraxton]

SteelPaladin, on 29 November 2012 - 09:59 AM, said:

Good F2P models get you to pay money because you're having fun. Bad models try to make you pay in order to have fun.

Someone who is invested in a product they enjoy is far more likely to cough up (and do it GLADLY, the value of which is so often underestimated) than someone who gets a stick to the face and a hand held out right at the gate. Make your customers feel well treated and like they're getting value for their dollar and they'll give you more of them than if they feel like they're being mugged. Somehow, this is constantly ignored.

Quoting for truth here. PGI could easily have made the MC costs much more reasonable.

As it stand a lot of players will run screaming from this game once they calculate the cost of the mechs and paint schemes.

Sadly every F2P title I've tried feels like a scam even when you enjoy the game.

There must be enough people out there with more money than time because I cannot imagine spending $20 on an ingame mech.

I just bought like 4 full AAA games for $20 in a steam sale...

Its been said a lot but this game lacks any hook for newcomers to the franchise.

Edited by LordBraxton, 29 November 2012 - 10:23 AM.

[Cynwulf]

I think everyone is looking at this wrong.

If your in a house military your re-arms and repairs would be covered by the house. Any mods you make from the house's stock variants would be on you. All salvage would go to the house as well. You would get a certain amount of pay and perhaps even hazard pay. One would have a steady but low income from day one

Mercenary units depend on contracts and actual salvage to survive. Contracts would be based on your rating with the Mercenary Review and Bonding Commision. The better your rating the better contracts the mercenary organization will receive. The bread and butter for a mercenary unit is salvage. Battlefield salvage can dramatically increase the profit margins for a successful mission.

[QuantumButler]

Cynwulf, on 29 November 2012 - 10:30 AM, said:

I think everyone is looking at this wrong.

If your in a house military your re-arms and repairs would be covered by the house. Any mods you make from the house's stock variants would be on you. All salvage would go to the house as well. You would get a certain amount of pay and perhaps even hazard pay. One would have a steady but low income from day one

Mercenary units depend on contracts and actual salvage to survive. Contracts would be based on your rating with the Mercenary Review and Bonding Commision. The better your rating the better contracts the mercenary organization will receive. The bread and butter for a mercenary unit is salvage. Battlefield salvage can dramatically increase the profit margins for a successful mission.

And it's gonig to be at least 3 to 6 months till any of that stuff is remotely in game, if ever.