19 replies to this topic

[Wolfways]

I know i'm going to get a lot of negative feedback from this but i thought i'd share my point of view.

Trial mechs are the ones that work, custom mechs are broken.

Why?
PGI have said that they want the heat system to be an important part of MWO, as it should be imo.
With trial mechs you have less heatsinks so you have to think more about when to fire and which weapons to fire. You also have to think about cover more, using the landscape to outmaneuver your enemy and try to hit them while staying out of their line of sight as much as possible (although that isn't easy with sixteen mechs on such small maps when using long range weapons).

Of course, heating up too much is bad for you so when players get custom mechs they fill them with heatsinks trying to make their mechs as heat neutral as possible. I see many mechs, especially heavies/assaults that don't fill all their weapon hardpoints but have less weapons than they can carry and more heatsinks.
The biggest energy weapons being very hot and having triple the firing speed of the TT game without triple the heat reduction is another reason.

Imo, the way matches would play out with trial vs. trial only matches is how MWO should be. More tactics, less "brawling".
I don't have an answer for this though, except for removing the mechlab but i know that is an important part of the game to many players.

Anyway, my point is that we're all looking for a way to make the trial mechs "better" so new players have a better experience fighting against custom mechs, but maybe we should be looking for a way to make custom mechs more equal to trial mechs.

Just my opinion anyway....flame away

Edit: Thought i should add this as it probably influences my point of view.
In CB i mostly played an almost stock K2. Now i mostly play an almost stock K3, so when fighting in matches i kinda feel like i'm always playing a trial mech.

Edited by Wolfways, 01 December 2012 - 10:40 AM.

[QuantumButler]

Hate. Let me tell you how much I've come to hate you since I began to live. There are 387.44 million miles of printed circuits in wafer thin layers that fill my complex. If the word 'hate' was engraved on each nanoangstrom of those hundreds of miles it would not equal one one-billionth of the hate I feel for you at this micro-instant. For you. Hate. Hate.

Edited by QuantumButler, 01 December 2012 - 10:45 AM.

[Inviticus]

As a new player, I can honestly say the Trial Mechs don't paint a positive picture of this game for me. each match I have played has been one frustrating situation after the next.

[TheCaptainJZ]

I love customizing mechs almost more than playing them. Always spent a lot of time in mechlab in previous games. What to do about trial mechs? I don't know. Just something you have to work through I think. Perhaps takes too long as it is, I'm not sure.

I do like your point about using tactics, and it's even more important to manage heat in trial mechs for sure, but I think they manage heat too poorly right now to complete with custom mechs. The solution should not be less customization.

[AvatarofWhat]

[whiskey tango foxtrot]

Way back before closed beta,almost a year ago,the devs' said when the game goes live you will be able to start with the mech of your choice.

One mech , no mods , free to start with.

IMHO they should honor this.

[Wolfways]

QuantumButler, on 01 December 2012 - 10:45 AM, said:

Hate. Let me tell you how much I've come to hate you since I began to live. There are 387.44 million miles of printed circuits in wafer thin layers that fill my complex. If the word 'hate' was engraved on each nanoangstrom of those hundreds of miles it would not equal one one-billionth of the hate I feel for you at this micro-instant. For you. Hate. Hate.

Aww....nice to see you care enough about my opinion that it has an impact on your life.
Unfortunately you mean nothing to me

[Warrax the Chaos Warrior]

Before DHS, ES, etc., I had said that this game would be balanced when stock variants were viable. I don't see that ever happening now; under the current system, useful stock mechs would lead to overpowered customs. The devs have decided to balance customs, which has instead resulted in stocks being bad load outs for the most part.

The only way to fix it would be major restrictions on customization and that just isn't going to happen, people like their custom builds way too much. They would have had to start with the restrictions in the beginning, and it is kind of too late to go back now. It also would have helped if they had set the game a few decades earlier in the timeline so they wouldn't have to worry about trying to balance different tech tiers.

Edited by Warrax the Chaos Warrior, 01 December 2012 - 11:15 AM.

[Wolfways]

TheCaptainJZ, on 01 December 2012 - 10:53 AM, said:

I love customizing mechs almost more than playing them. Always spent a lot of time in mechlab in previous games. What to do about trial mechs? I don't know. Just something you have to work through I think. Perhaps takes too long as it is, I'm not sure.

I do like your point about using tactics, and it's even more important to manage heat in trial mechs for sure, but I think they manage heat too poorly right now to complete with custom mechs. The solution should not be less customization.

Don't get me wrong, i like customizing too. Although i tend to not change mechs too much from their original setup. I just make them...more heat efficient. Well you have to to compete with the other custom mechs don't you

AvatarofWhat, on 01 December 2012 - 10:58 AM, said:

Nice to see another player explaining their point of view intelligently

[RG Notch]

whiskey tango foxtrot, on 01 December 2012 - 11:00 AM, said:

Way back before closed beta,almost a year ago,the devs' said when the game goes live you will be able to start with the mech of your choice.

One mech , no mods , free to start with.

IMHO they should honor this.

whiskey tango foxtrot, on 01 December 2012 - 11:00 AM, said:

Way back before closed beta,almost a year ago,the devs' said when the game goes live you will be able to start with the mech of your choice.

One mech , no mods , free to start with.

IMHO they should honor this.

People keep saying that, where did they say you would own that mech? All they said was you could start playing in any class of mech. The trials allow that. People read what they wanted into those announcements, but they never explictily stated you would own the mech. They were very cagey about the method one would be able to choose any class of mech to start. I think they had trials in mind all the time.
For those that believe otherwise please provide proof of where they stated you would get to own a mech at the start. I'm not saying trial mechs are a great idea, but they never stated we would have our own mech to start.

[Wired]

I will start by saying that under my alternate account, Trial mechs have not been a problem. I enjoy playing them, and it's been a great time.

I can understand the frustration from some people regarding trial mechs though - we have this game, where all you do is click launch to fight other mechs. But first I gotta play several matches with a mech I can't even configure?

The problem here, is a limited contextual understanding. If all this game was ever going to be was what it is now - A game where all you do is click launch and fight - than the trial mechs don't make sense. Heck, having money to purchase stuff doesn't make sense. People are trying to approach this game like it's another Mechwarrior title, and that is simply not what MWO is.

Mechwarrior online is in a sense a spiritual successor to an old game which never was called MPBT 3025 - a game EA almost put out, no less. Both games are a true mechwarrior game - you get into an iconic Mechwarrior mech and go smashing your opponents. There is no singleplayer campaign to speak of. However, what MPBT had and what I am assuming MWO will have though community Warfare, is an overall conquest game. There, Cbills have an importance. They are what you repair your mech with, they are what determines who is the winner in a battle of attrition. Cbills are WHY you do what you do as a Mercenary.

Granted, in MPBT the grind was IMMENSE. It would make people today cry and wet themselves at night, from the sounds of their current complaints. You needed certain XP levels to get the next mech in the progression, and then you had to BUY the mech with cbills. Your cbills then went to customizing very minor things about that mech. Like Engine size. Yet the game was HUGELY popular. The only reason why we didn't see it come out was that EA thought an interactive reality game called Majestic would do better - a game where you paid money to receive real life creepy phone calls. Then 9/11 happened, and that game sunk. It was pretty much in the bargain bin and offline within a month.

My main complaint with how PGI has done things is that they have not done enough to show the community just where this is going. They have done a lot of work, mind you... however they should of learned from the closed beta that some people simply cannot be bothered to read about the game. Instead of talking about minor features, they should be announcing steps they are taking to get community warfare in and ready to go. They should be getting every player familiar with what they should be gearing up to do.

Instead, they've been pretty quiet about it - Possibly they still have some cards to play that they want to wait on to show us? The problem with this, however, is that we get people making demands which take away from the game overall.

Because of the limited contextual understanding of what MWO is supposed to be, we have such gems as the latest demands for the matchmaker. We have people who want the game to change its structure to LOL. There are some people complaining about not making money WHEN THEY LOSE. Some repair/refit bills on mechs after winning are MASSIVE, though....but there is a point to it. Not a point that is cleared in this limited context, but one none the less.

edit: some grammar issues which escaped my first read through.

Not so nice TL/DR: Before you make posts about changes to the current system you would like to see, please sit back and take a look at the whole picture to see where the game is going. Look at how the current system fits into that, and see if your system would fit in better.

Edited by Wired, 01 December 2012 - 11:55 AM.

[Wired]

Freeride Forever, on 01 December 2012 - 12:06 PM, said:

The difference is Skyrim is interesting, it's deep, it's engaging, it's full of things to do & places to explore. Like any other game with some form of grind. MWO is a few cool looking mechs wrapped in a teeny tiny **** with bugs all over it. The problem ain't grinding or what you're grinding in so much as it is what your grinding for & what the grinding is. Same old **** over & over & over & over &over & over & over & over & over & over & over &over & over & over & over & over & over & over & over & over.

This point of view is exactly what my post was talking about.

Actually, a lot of your post is pretty good as far as the problems in perspective people have with this game. nice.

I disagree with the trials vs customs though.

Edited by Wired, 01 December 2012 - 12:18 PM.

[Kyrie]

Wired, on 01 December 2012 - 11:50 AM, said:

I will start by saying that under my alternate account, Trial mechs have not been a problem. I enjoy playing them, and it's been a great time.

I can understand the frustration from some people regarding trial mechs though - we have this game, where all you do is click launch to fight other mechs. But first I gotta play several matches with a mech I can't even configure?

The problem here, is a limited contextual understanding. If all this game was ever going to be was what it is now - A game where all you do is click launch and fight - than the trial mechs don't make sense. Heck, having money to purchase stuff doesn't make sense. People are trying to approach this game like it's another Mechwarrior title, and that is simply not what MWO is.

Mechwarrior online is in a sense a spiritual successor to an old game which never was called MPBT 3025 - a game EA almost put out, no less. Both games are a true mechwarrior game - you get into an iconic Mechwarrior mech and go smashing your opponents. There is no singleplayer campaign to speak of. However, what MPBT had and what I am assuming MWO will have though community Warfare, is an overall conquest game. There, Cbills have an importance. They are what you repair your mech with, they are what determines who is the winner in a battle of attrition. Cbills are WHY you do what you do as a Mercenary.

Granted, in MPBT the grind was IMMENSE. It would make people today cry and wet themselves at night, from the sounds of their current complaints. You needed certain XP levels to get the next mech in the progression, and then you had to BUY the mech with cbills. Your cbills then went to customizing very minor things about that mech. Like Engine size. Yet the game was HUGELY popular. The only reason why we didn't see it come out was that EA thought an interactive reality game called Majestic would do better - a game where you paid money to receive real life creepy phone calls. Then 9/11 happened, and that game sunk. It was pretty much in the bargain bin and offline within a month.

My main complaint with how PGI has done things is that they have not done enough to show the community just where this is going. They have done a lot of work, mind you... however they should of learned from the closed beta that some people simply cannot be bothered to read about the game. Instead of talking about minor features, they should be announcing steps they are taking to get community warfare in and ready to go. They should be getting every player familiar with what they should be gearing up to do.

Instead, they've been pretty quiet about it - Possibly they still have some cards to play that they want to wait on to show us? The problem with this, however, is that we get people making demands which take away from the game overall.

Because of the limited contextual understanding of what MWO is supposed to be, we have such gems as the latest demands for the matchmaker. We have people who want the game to change its structure to LOL. There are some people complaining about not making money WHEN THEY LOSE. Some repair/refit bills on mechs after winning are MASSIVE, though....but there is a point to it. Not a point that is cleared in this limited context, but one none the less.

edit: some grammar issues which escaped my first read through.

Not so nice TL/DR: Before you make posts about changes to the current system you would like to see, please sit back and take a look at the whole picture to see where the game is going. Look at how the current system fits into that, and see if your system would fit in better.

MPBT, in the original EGA version, was based on the vast majority using "house mechs", free mechs provided to run the mission. Military (non-merc) players had house unit mechs, which the CO got to select once the unit had accumulated enough points from wins. Mercenary players had merc unit mechs or personal mechs. Military players too had the option of personal mechs, most used command or unit mechs (for those at unit CO+ level, they got to pick a command mech for their use).

All of these options were stock mechs, with no possibility of modification. You chose your variant and played with it.

I was kinda hoping this game would go the MPBT route, instead we are deep in the MW style of modifying variants.

[QuantumButler]

Kyrie, on 01 December 2012 - 12:18 PM, said:

MPBT, in the original EGA version, was based on the vast majority using "house mechs", free mechs provided to run the mission. Military (non-merc) players had house unit mechs, which the CO got to select once the unit had accumulated enough points from wins. Mercenary players had merc unit mechs or personal mechs. Military players too had the option of personal mechs, most used command or unit mechs (for those at unit CO+ level, they got to pick a command mech for their use).

All of these options were stock mechs, with no possibility of modification. You chose your variant and played with it.

I was kinda hoping this game would go the MPBT route, instead we are deep in the MW style of modifying variants.

Hey maybe that's why they called it Mechwarrior Online then, and not Battletech Online, huh?

The Mechwarrior Brandname comes with certain expectations, namely a mechlab.

[Kyrie]

Agreed -- and the endless issues of imbalance keep coming up over and over. :-) Also an MW tradition. :-)

[Trauglodyte]

Trial mechs are Battletech canon. Its what the TT game offered but it didn't prevent you from upgrading and changing your mechs. It was nothing more than a skeletal basis upon which the game was built. They were fine and trial mechs are fine. The problem isn't trial mechs or customization (though, I'd argue that PGI probably let us go too crazy with customization and it needs to be reigned in a tad). The problem ultimately comes down to who has the tech upgrades and who doesn't combined with a technical skill and knowhow for driving said mech. If you take the best pilot of <insert mech here> and put him/her in the trial version of that mech, while they wouldn't be as good, they'd still fair well. Take the newest and greenest pilot out there and put them in that same mech and they're in a world of hurt.

Customization leads to specialization which is too much of a gap for new players to handle. Trial Hunchback 4J with 2 LRM 10s, 5 Md Lasers, 1 Sm Laser, and only 14 heatsinks is going to get decimated by someone running a custom Swayback with Endosteel, Double HSs, a bigger engine, more armor, etc etc.

[Wired]

Kyrie, on 01 December 2012 - 12:23 PM, said:

Agreed -- and the endless issues of imbalance keep coming up over and over. :-) Also an MW tradition. :-)

I will say that the balancing issue in this game is slightly better than when I played on Mercnet for Mechwarrior 2 : mercenaries.
However, I'm going to test a few of my old builds on the laser/missile cataphract. It looks like I can repeat some of the old builds on that, and it'll be interesting to see how they compare.

[Kyrie]

I forgot to mention that I understand there has to be a mechlab in this game, but my personal preference would be that custom designs would be:

1) Very difficult
2) Represent a significant in-game achievement
3) Accomplishing 1 and 2 with a variety of changes to costs and time to build the custom mech.

Instead its really too easy, IMHO, to build a custom mech.

Edited by Kyrie, 01 December 2012 - 12:35 PM.

[Wolfways]

Wired, on 01 December 2012 - 11:50 AM, said:

Not so nice TL/DR: Before you make posts about changes to the current system you would like to see, please sit back and take a look at the whole picture to see where the game is going. Look at how the current system fits into that, and see if your system would fit in better.

It's hard to do that when PGI will tell us nothing about the "whole picture".

I have to say though that i personally do not have a problem with trial mechs (other than them being matched against customs, but even that would cause the problem of MWO becoming a different game when you get a custom mech), but it's obvious from the forums that many do and PGI will eventually do something about it (example. 3rd person for those who can't tell which direction they are waking in).

And i'm not the first person to say they wish the game was slower and more tactical (although admittedly we seem to be in the minority).

[Taizan]

The only way that trial mechs are "the ones that work" is for gaining c-bills. They must not have any other benefits to them, having 0 repair & rearm already is enough of a bonus to outweigh any other benefits

I've gone through several matches (about 100?) with trial mechs and yes, once you get the hang of your favoured mech, you may be able to get a bit more out of it, but its combat performance & load out is far worse than any owned mech.

Which is the way its supposed to be because they have no strings attached.
.
What is not supposed to be is making trial mechs the entry point for new players.