19 replies to this topic

[HC Harlequin]

The interesting bit with the whole TAG and ECM thing. If I TAG a target I break the ECM bubble on the target.. but not under 180 meters. How could that possibly work? What component of ECM on radio frequency wavelengths could counter a visible light wavelength that is only viewable outside of 180 meters?

[HC Harlequin]

Bear in mind that the whole streak cat mechanic.. would that work with a 6xSSRM streakcat with.. 0 energy hardpoints? Wouldn't that, in fact, force more teamwork oriented streak cats?

You TAG a target, people with (N)LOS can target the target.. Since TAG is, in fact, a SKILL based weapon.. how many people are going to complain?

Just sayin

[Zylo]

The problem is that inside the ECM bubble you can't relay the target info to your team outside the ECM bubble.

I don't think this should be changed.

If you want to hit a scout with missiles and that scout is running ECM, stay outside the bubble, TAG and let your team hit them with LRMs.

Edited by Zylo, 05 December 2012 - 02:38 AM.

[Mr Mantis]

HC Harlequin, on 05 December 2012 - 02:27 AM, said:

Bear in mind that the whole streak cat mechanic.. would that work with a 6xSSRM streakcat with.. 0 energy hardpoints? Wouldn't that, in fact, force more teamwork oriented streak cats?

Or if narc was better than 5ssrm and 1 narc so he would not have to rely solely on teamwork.

[HC Harlequin]

Zylo, on 05 December 2012 - 02:38 AM, said:

The problem is that inside the ECM bubble you can't relay the target info to your team outside the ECM bubble.

I don't think this should be changed.

If you want to hit a scout with missiles and that scout is running ECM, stay outside the bubble, TAG and let your team hit them with LRMs.

How does a laser illuminator "relay" information? the target is lit up, like a deer's eye's in headlights. It's glowing.. what "relay" is going on there? and how does ECM "cloud" the glow of an IR illuminator.. what.. fart a 180 meter radius monomolecular crystalline bubble every half second?

[yashmack]

HC Harlequin, on 05 December 2012 - 03:03 AM, said:

How does a laser illuminator "relay" information? the target is lit up, like a deer's eye's in headlights. It's glowing.. what "relay" is going on there? and how does ECM "cloud" the glow of an IR illuminator.. what.. fart a 180 meter radius monomolecular crystalline bubble every half second?

The TAG unit works by firing an infrared laser beam to designate the target and transmits that data via a tight-beam laser communication system to the guidance systems of friendly "smart" bombs and missiles.

http://www.sarna.net...cquisition_Gear

ECM disrupts the transmission being sent to the guided weapons, simple as that
it could send out a wide band IR signal in all directions to effectively cover or scatter the signal coming from the TAG

Edited by yashmack, 05 December 2012 - 03:10 AM.

[Zylo]

HC Harlequin, on 05 December 2012 - 03:03 AM, said:

How does a laser illuminator "relay" information? the target is lit up, like a deer's eye's in headlights. It's glowing.. what "relay" is going on there? and how does ECM "cloud" the glow of an IR illuminator.. what.. fart a 180 meter radius monomolecular crystalline bubble every half second?

I think the concept is the disruption of the TAG causing it to not function. If it's not properly lighting up the target it won't function to guide missiles to the target.

[HC Harlequin]

yashmack, on 05 December 2012 - 03:08 AM, said:

The TAG unit works by firing an infrared laser beam to designate the target and transmits that data via a tight-beam laser communication system to the guidance systems of friendly "smart" bombs and missiles.

http://www.sarna.net...cquisition_Gear

ECM disrupts the transmission being sent to the guided weapons, simple as that
it could send out a wide band IR signal in all directions to effectively cover or scatter the signal coming from the TAG

So.. like a big friggen disco ball spinning around flashing a million tiny IR lazure beams to "disrupt" .. how exactly would that NOT make it glow even worse?

[yashmack]

by sending out incorrect or out of date position data

[HC Harlequin]

A laser doesn't communicate via radio frequencies.. What happens is missiles track the IR "glow" using a IR visual tracking eye. Every missile with IR illuminator tracking capability does the same thing

[Jetfire]

HC Harlequin, on 05 December 2012 - 03:18 AM, said:

A laser doesn't communicate via radio frequencies.. What happens is missiles track the IR "glow" using a IR visual tracking eye. Every missile with IR illuminator tracking capability does the same thing

I think the point here is the in BT canon, LRMs don't directly track the IR signal, IE, they are not Sidewinder missiles. The tag makes the mech more visible to the TAG equipped mech, which then sends higher quality target information out on its radio system. ECM disrupts the outgoing radio. That is why ECM works against tag inside the bubble, it only makes the targetting info better for the tag equipped mech. It is not like US military laser guided painters as the missiles themselves are not heat (IR) seaking, they are radio guided by the mech that fires them, which is why losing lock means the missiles stop tracking.

Edited by Jetfire, 05 December 2012 - 03:31 AM.

[yashmack]

HC Harlequin, on 05 December 2012 - 03:18 AM, said:

A laser doesn't communicate via radio frequencies.. What happens is missiles track the IR "glow" using a IR visual tracking eye. Every missile with IR illuminator tracking capability does the same thing

sure, in the real world
In battletech canon is paints the target and relays that data using a tight beam laser communication sent to smart weapons

we dont have much more detail than that

even with it being an IR signal it would be very easy to disrupt, lasers are not a finite beam, they get bigger as distance increases
as for the IR tag all you need is an IR transmitter to send out an interference beam
a beam doesnt have to be tight an confined, it can spread out in a large area, just think of the old school TV remotes, they used IR beams and had a small LED at sent out a wide cone of IR data to your TV
you could turn it at 90 degrees from the TV and still manage to turn it on if you were far enough away, this is a result of the IR beam spreading out as it gets further from the source

the IR beam painted on the target is not the target, its more like a range finder, it updates with ditance data relative to your mech based on the IR beam and then send another beam to the smart weapons, or at least that is how I can best explain it with the limited description from BT lore and the sarna website

Edited by yashmack, 05 December 2012 - 03:31 AM.

[Zylo]

HC Harlequin, on 05 December 2012 - 03:18 AM, said:

A laser doesn't communicate via radio frequencies.. What happens is missiles track the IR "glow" using a IR visual tracking eye. Every missile with IR illuminator tracking capability does the same thing

So let me ask this question:

Would it not be possible for ECM to disrupt any TAG equipment that might prevent it from even projecting the beam at the target? Disruption of any sort of targeting computer?

[Mithos]

HC Harlequin, on 05 December 2012 - 02:27 AM, said:

Bear in mind that the whole streak cat mechanic.. would that work with a 6xSSRM streakcat with.. 0 energy hardpoints? Wouldn't that, in fact, force more teamwork oriented streak cats?

Nah, it'll force to use C4 instead of A1. 4xSSRM2, TAG, MPL. Built it recently, works fine even now - if you can stay between 180 and 270 meters.

[HC Harlequin]

Zylo, on 05 December 2012 - 03:32 AM, said:

So let me ask this question:

Would it not be possible for ECM to disrupt any TAG equipment that might prevent it from even projecting the beam at the target? Disruption of any sort of targeting computer?

If it could do that then it could also do the same thing to any energy or ballistic weapon.

[Apoc1138]

HC Harlequin, on 05 December 2012 - 04:12 AM, said:

If it could do that then it could also do the same thing to any energy or ballistic weapon.

not neccessarily, a TAG is a very low powered laser (compare with the combat type), ECM is screwing with TAG but isn't powerful enough to screw with weapons grade lasers, and ballistics are largely mechanical and not prone to ECM

either that, or TAG relies partly on communications from the firing mech to the other mechs in the group, so by removing the comms aspect by being so close in, it also disrupts the full effect of the TAG, I think as someone mentions above... the TAG itself enables the firing mech to get a clearer location / distance on the target, but this information is then relayed to the other mechs by comms, LRM's don't use the TAG itself to lock on to, they use the data from the TAGgin mech to enable faster lock on and more accurate location

Edited by Apoc1138, 05 December 2012 - 04:20 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

HC Harlequin, on 05 December 2012 - 02:22 AM, said:

The interesting bit with the whole TAG and ECM thing. If I TAG a target I break the ECM bubble on the target.. but not under 180 meters. How could that possibly work? What component of ECM on radio frequency wavelengths could counter a visible light wavelength that is only viewable outside of 180 meters?

I voted for No, but mean maybe. After looking up what TAG does, (Sends a tight beam LASER to in coming ordinance), ECM would not 'jam' this piece of equipment. SO I am changing my vote to Yes TAG should trump ECM.

[HC Harlequin]

Ok so. a laser beam gets a frequency modulated reference on a plate of reflecting steel/ceramic construct. The computer system then sends a SECOND laser to all the other systems available..

Wouldn't this STILL be just a light based LOS signal.. even if it's automated? so how does an self limiting electomagnetic field generator operating in radio wavelengths stop light?

[Sovolis]

As someone that thinks ECM needs a massive nerf I still voted no. TAG doesn't work like that in canon and it goes against the flavor of canon to make TAG work like that. ECM appears to have been partially introduced to provide balance to missiles; this is bad game design. Adding an ability to TAG to balance ECM only repeats the same bad game design; the solution is to fix ECM and missiles if they require a fix.

[HC Harlequin]

Hmm. Although I understand the point, the fact is, if you shine a bright light onto something, it's going to stand out.