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Shooting At A Connecticut Elementary


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#41 Mavairo

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 08:46 AM

Even with incidents like this, we still have less violent crime per 100,000 people than most of our neighbors across the pond.
http://www.dailymail...Africa-U-S.html

So don't try and pull the "no guns solves everything" it doesn't.
It doesn't even come close.
What needs to happen, in reality is that these people get the proper mental health they need instead of just sweeping it under the rug and pretending as hard as you can that ''there is nothing wrong with (Insert family member here)".

The sooner people realize that yes your (insert family here) is defective the better, and safer everyone else is going to be in the long run. If there's one thing modern society particularly modern american society is good at, it's living in Denial. Most people are in heavy denial about relatively benign things, like their weight, economic standing. To say nothing of mental illnesses. We've glamorized ourselves for so long we can't see past the ********* anymore.

Edited by Mavairo, 16 December 2012 - 08:53 AM.


#42 Bosko89Buha

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 09:11 AM

View PostShredhead, on 16 December 2012 - 05:04 AM, said:

While I agree that disarming all citizens is no viable solution, especially in the US, I have to disagree on the second quoted statement. You (as a people, not personally) do not take enough care of your fellow citizens. There are not enough places and institutions to keep these lost people from falling, the whole US society is based on selfishness and hard elbows. You will have to change as a whole, in your relations to your fellow citizens be they rich, poor or even homeless.
If Doctors Without Borders had to be active in my country to keep the poor from dying I would be massively ashamed! But I think those massive changes would go a long hard way in a country where people don't even know the difference between social, socialist and communist...

All that said I am really sorry for the parents and relatives and friends of those who were murdered in that shooting. I can't even imagine the grief and the loss!


I often get the feeling that US are falling apart more and more constantly. Not as a country, cause people running it and calling the shots actually don't have to worry about their future, but as a society. I also think it's actually pretty hard to be a US citizen, living in a country so divided by race, ethnic differences, religions and what not. It's not my opinion that those differences are the reason to feel and act divided, but it's the way the world is, and sadly - nothing will probably change in near future. And what Ryft said, I believe he was referring to the time of tragedies like this - and yeah, I think Americans are strongest when bad things happen, yet I still feel that the ruling few have their priorities checked here also - just look at New Orleans a few years ago and New York now after the hurricanes, and I think more money, time and effort will be put into NY, while NO still "lies in ruins", so to speak. There's a saying in Croatia, I don't know if it's the same in other parts of the world "the fish starts smelling bad from it's head", meaning that the people and organizations in charge are responsible for well-being of their nation, and that's the only way things work. Croatia was rated the lowest credit ranking a few days ago, the politicians sit comfortable in their seats and think of new taxes every day, while the minimum wages (around 300€), available jobs are lower and lower every day, while the cost of gas, health care, communication, public transportation, life itself never stop to grow. Our VAT is 25%! Twenty-five! People who don't own TV's get thrown in jail (last one was an old granny a week or so ago) because they don't pay the TV houses - for their program they have nothing to watch on. And the list goes on and on, police is corrupted, mayors of two biggest cities are total idiots, not by their bad actions as majors, but by their common sense and knowledge, our president looks like a guy who as a kid got molested, or beaten up at school, and our prime minister is skying in Austria while our country is sinking, his former coalition partner is in jail for killing two Hungarians in a car accident, and our former president said the only thing that made us all proud and happy in the last couple of years - was a mistake! Hell, and Croatia has 4.5M people, just imagine how screwed up US can get if their leaders decide to do so.

But that's all so very off of this topic, and I hope people and families hit by this tragedy find at least some comfort in the coming days and years. I saw a father of a girl named Elisabeth (I think), who shared his sympathies with all those families - and with a family of the shooter. And although that is a right and logic thing to do - for a father who just lost a 6 year old daughter, that took some courage, and I really do admire him for being a person, before being a father, when situation asked for that.

#43 Randall Flagg

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 07:11 PM

Ted Kennedy's car has killed more people than all of my guns combined. A locked gun safe was all it would have taken to prevent this massacre. GG.

#44 Vilheim

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 08:22 PM

I heard that the Westboro Baptist Church is coming to Connecticut:
http://www.huffingto..._n_2312186.html

Also, I found this neat petition on the White House website. If you are American, I suggest you sign it:
https://petitions.wh...-group/DYf3pH2d

#45 anonymous175

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 08:47 PM

Tired of the media vultures putting this **** up 24/7 cause its ratings gangbusters. News plz not reality tv.

Let the people grieve without your mics in their faces.

And double **** you goes out to people using this to politicize their agendas.

#46 MEGABOT 5

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 08:39 AM

I cried and cried this weekend at the sheer inhumanity of this crime.

As much depression as it put on my shoulders, it only serves to strengthen my resolve to make the world a better place, in whichever ways I can.

#47 Tex Arcana

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 09:09 AM

View PostMavairo, on 16 December 2012 - 08:46 AM, said:

Even with incidents like this, we still have less violent crime per 100,000 people than most of our neighbors across the pond.
http://www.dailymail...Africa-U-S.html

So don't try and pull the "no guns solves everything" it doesn't.
It doesn't even come close.
What needs to happen, in reality is that these people get the proper mental health they need instead of just sweeping it under the rug and pretending as hard as you can that ''there is nothing wrong with (Insert family member here)".

The sooner people realize that yes your (insert family here) is defective the better, and safer everyone else is going to be in the long run. If there's one thing modern society particularly modern american society is good at, it's living in Denial. Most people are in heavy denial about relatively benign things, like their weight, economic standing. To say nothing of mental illnesses. We've glamorized ourselves for so long we can't see past the ********* anymore.

No guns doesn't solve everything; but it sure as hell solves a serious problem.
Since posting information from Nations that have other systemic challenges (Like Britain's crime rate; which is reflective of challenges which in no way relate to the States; like population density, and an economy that is even more piled on the rocks than America's): Here you go:
http://www.theatlant...-deaths/260189/

#48 Pht

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 04:18 PM

View Postbug3at3r, on 14 December 2012 - 10:14 PM, said:

... we need better solutions to keep mentally ill people clear the **** away.


His supposed mental illness is not to blame.

He (the shooter) harbored hate in his thoughts and emotions, and than made the sinful choice - himself - to carry out this act. He is the one that caused this, he is the one that is responsible for it.

If there is anything else for others to be blamed for, it is for their negligence in creating a culture of cowardace and not mentally and emotionally and morally and physically equipping themselves to defend those kids.... but again, the shooter is the only one to blame for the shootings.

It is the shooters lack of personal internal restraint coupled with his hate that gave us this tragedy.

View PostMavairo, on 14 December 2012 - 11:00 PM, said:

The reason this keeps happening in unarmed zones is precisely that. Because they are zones where people are not armed nor expecting the need to be.


Language quibble: they're not unarmed zones. They're zones of enforced inequality of chance to defend oneself and others.

IF the reports that teachers would be allowed to concealed carry in the schools is true... IF the school authorities allow it ... that is very good; but it only pushes the problem back a step, from the laws to the culture.

It is my experience and the experience of virtually everyone I know that our public schools have a culture of absolute irrational fear when it comes to guns in the hands of anyone other than the police. I can't possibly see any teachers being able to equip themselves to defend their students in the cultures in our schools, public or otherwise.

We are cowards, by and large, when it comes to defending ourselves and others... being, instead of evil wolves, or sheep, ... being the wolfhounds; properly equipped, trained, and most of all, capable of actually defending others and ourselves.

View PostPaul BlackJack Cady, on 15 December 2012 - 11:57 AM, said:

he had already killed his mother at her home, ...


I've heard some report that he murdered his mother in the act of taking the guns, but the "reporting" on this tragedy has been ... tragic in and of itself. Error after error after error, in their rush to get good ratings.

View PostTex Arcana, on 15 December 2012 - 11:58 AM, said:

Please, please, PLEASE do not use inaccurate information in order to back-up an argument. The Home Office is actually showing a drop in Gun Crime based on the new methods of recording that were introduced (more accurate tracking of firearms related crime since the early 2000's).


It's not possible to accurately record these things. Statistics are an epistemlogical fail at finding universal truths. They're nothing more than anecdotal opinions all prettied up with a thin veneer of math. This is the ultimate reason that you can find statistics that supposedly follow the same rules and procedures that produce contradictory results... and why no argument involving statistics ever really resolves.

Edited by Pht, 17 December 2012 - 06:34 PM.


#49 Pht

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 04:37 PM

View PostDirus Nigh, on 15 December 2012 - 10:02 PM, said:

I do not own a firearm. Why should you? Because some one might shoot you? To me you are that person.


People - Men especially (and I use the word Men, not males, purposfully) especially should be mentally, emotionally, morally, and physically equipped at a reasonable level to defend themselves and others (especially their families).

That is why (mature) people should own, in our case, guns. In the past, it was harder, as we had, as individuals and socities, to be trained in the use of swords and the like (much harder to attain reasonable capability with swords).

In relation to this ... tragedy... It has apparently not been widely reported that the shooter murdered himself ... *when he realized the police were there with equal force to his own.*

The police (thank GOD) stopped him; it was those individuals that did it... and they did it by using the tools known as "guns" ... in this case, it was the mere threat expressed by the proximity of the police with equal ability to defend themselves that stopped this from getting worse.




... and by the way, those who gave their lives as scrifices to save their charges in that school should be honored and memorialized to the best of our ability. It takes serious intestinal fortitude to step up to that level of force disparity! ...

View PostQuentius, on 16 December 2012 - 05:35 AM, said:

Yeah, I get it already: after such a terrible tragedy, you class acts will be hugging your guns a little tighter.


Yeah, I get it already: after such a terrible tragedy, you class acts will be mad at anyone who dares to think that the people should have been able to be equipped to defend the children given into their care; and hugging your irrational emotionalism; regardless of the consequences of your way of (not really) thinking.

You should be ashamed of yourself.


View PostBosko89Buha, on 16 December 2012 - 09:11 AM, said:

I often get the feeling that US are falling apart more and more constantly. Not as a country, cause people running it and calling the shots actually don't have to worry about their future, but as a society.


We have replaced the idea of freedom (which, by definition, requires boundaries) with the idea of libertinism (the idea that we should be able to do anything, with NO boundaries) - even though most people say "freedom" they mean, effectively, "libertinism."

We've tossed internal moral constraint and responsibility out the window. We're paying for doing so.


----

As far as to the reasons why we should defend ourselves and others, here is a link to one of those touchstone essays on the topic:

LINK

Edited by Pht, 17 December 2012 - 04:45 PM.


#50 Dirus Nigh

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 05:22 PM

Rather said that i am accused of being uncivilized because I do not own a firearm. I do not have the need or wont to do so. I must be warped by violence or some crap.

I do not want to always wonder if some random person has a gun. I put my trust in people who have the legal and moral authority given to them by society to watch out for the rest of us. They are called Police. They have the training and authority to act.

I never said any thing to the point of banning fire arms in the united states.

I never said a person that can prove themselves responsible, mentally sound, and no violent criminal record (convictions) should not be aloud to own a firearm.

I in no way commented on the actual events at that school, nor criticized the actions of any one trying to protect the kids. It's very insulting that it was insinuated that I did.

I find it rather sad that people want to argue about the right to own a firearm. Instead of having a conversation about what could have been done to reduce the likely hood of violence. Things like whys to combat poverty that drives people to crime out of desperation. Building a stronger community through creating a stable environment were people have jobs, access to health care, and education. A better system of checks to prevent the ownership of firearms by people who are mentally unstable. Access to self defense training and how to defuse a potential violent situation. A better police force with the resources they need to protect their cities.

All of these are topics that could be discussed. However the sad thing is even if our society tackles these issue with dedicated passion it will still not prevent an incident like this school shooting to occur, or the shooting at the theater earlier this year, the shooting at the Amish community, the shoot out at a police station, the shootings at the Carolina collage, the shootings from a tower in Texas. These are random events.

Keep in mind I am aware that there are circumstances and places where having access to a weapon is the smart and responsible choice. Living near the Mexican boarder or in a wilderness like Alaska are such places.

No I do not want to live in a society that has the need for every one to be armed. Were people's actions are dictatad by an underlying threat of violence, rather than on mutual respect and trust.

I guess that makes me a warped savage barbarian that has no concept of being civilized.

Edited by Dirus Nigh, 17 December 2012 - 05:25 PM.


#51 Pht

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 06:01 PM

View PostDirus Nigh, on 17 December 2012 - 05:22 PM, said:

Rather said that i am accused of being uncivilized because I do not own a firearm.


The tools are secondary in this case.

This has more to do with how our culture at large is trending more towards being sheep, instead of sheepdogs; and the logical necessary consequences of that trend.

It has nothing at all to do with an obsession about guns - quite frankly, I know a few people with an unhealthy obsession with these tools, and I don't see them as good because of their obsession. Quite the opposite.

Quote

I do not want to always wonder if some random person has a gun.


If you live in the US in a "shall issue" Concealed Carry Weapons permit state, you're around people carrying, every time you're out in public, most likely.

... and you are better off for it.

Quote

I put my trust in people who have the legal and moral authority given to them by society to watch out for the rest of us. They are called Police. They have the training and authority to act.


... and it is a complete impossibility for them to be there to protect the overwhelming majority of the populace. Police usually show up to handle the paperwork, dispose of the cooling body, and notify the next of kin.

In fact, the supreme court has held that the police cannot be sued for not protecting you - yes, the police do not, by law, have to protect you.

I'm not trying to get down on the police here; by and large they are a good deterrent by their presence... but they simply cannot be everywhere.

You are literally gambling with you and your loved one's lives that there will be police near when you need them - and that the police will be able to tell that YOU are not the one that should be stopped; because police also suffer other consequences because they show up after the fact. They literally have to GUESS at who is the unlawul and immoral agressor.

Besides which, we are the ones that have a moral duty to defend our own lives and the lives of others around us from immoral aggression. Indeed, it is immoral to think it right that someone else has to defend your person (if you are reasonably able to defend yourself).

In the case of our police, how is it moral to think our own lives are priceless, but someone making, what, 30K a year should have to defend us? Are the lives of our police something less than priceless?

Quote

I find it rather sad that people want to argue about the right to own a firearm. Instead of having a conversation about what could have been done to reduce the likely hood of violence.


This is a false dicohotomy. Violent criminals are armed with firearms; and the most reasonable way to achieve equal ability in force to defend oneself and others is to have access to a firearm of your own.

Quote

Things like whys to combat poverty that drives people to crime out of desperation. Building a stronger community through creating a stable environment were people have jobs, access to health care, and education. A better system of checks to prevent the ownership of firearms by people who are mentally unstable. Access to self defense training and how to defuse a potential violent situation. A better police force with the resources they need to protect their cities.

All of these are topics that could be discussed.


They could be discussed. But they would not be fruitful at all. The problem that causes these tragedies are the sinful choices of the individuals that commit these acts.

A murderous person will be homicidal if he is poor, rich, smart, stupid, has a great or horrible self image, even if he is mentally ill or not. All of these things make up the secondary context in which people make these sinful and evil choices.

A person bent on murder will use virtually anything, rational or irrational, as an excuse for his act of hate towards people. We can't stop a single murderer by changing the context of their lives. We can attempt to prod their conscience by trying to persuade them that murder is evil, and has endless consequences past the grave; but to stop someone unbendingly comitted to the act of homicide and in the act of carring it out, we can only utilize physical force.

Quote

However the sad thing is even if our society tackles these issue with dedicated passion it will still not prevent an incident like this school shooting to occur, or the shooting at the theater earlier this year, the shooting at the Amish community, the shoot out at a police station, the shootings at the Carolina collage, the shootings from a tower in Texas. These are random events.


It is possible to stop these things as they crop up, by legally allowing people the right to posess the tools that give them equality of force in self defense... and by free society enforcing and reinforcing a culture of mature, considered, defense of one's self and others.

Quote

No I do not want to live in a society that has the need for every one to be armed. Were people's actions are dictatad by an underlying threat of violence, rather than on mutual respect and trust.


We must make our socities and governments supportive of people having an equal chance at self defense, for the simple fact that hate will never leave the minds and emotions of man.

Murder is nothing but hateful thoughts carried out into action.

Quote

I guess that makes me a warped savage barbarian that has no concept of being civilized.


I thnk at worst it might make you simply ... ignorant of the issue. Especially of any well-supported and considered response to the usual line of "give them what they want, your life isn't worth x" and other such ideas.

Good article inside spoiler fold on just this topic:


Spoiler



LINK for spoiler text

Edited by Pht, 17 December 2012 - 06:41 PM.


#52 Corvus Antaka

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 09:41 AM

It's American Culture. Canada has more guns per capita than America, with almost none of the same issues.

Bowling for Columbine explains it all pretty well.

Primarily it's the medias glorification of violence and war in general in American TV that has a heavy influence on the public.

In Europe you can watched naked men & women on normal TV after midnight. There is little sexual frustration and much more liberation, combined with a lot less violence in TV & movies.

vs in America where sex is much more extreme in **** while at the same time limited to the fringe and the internet instead of normalized, while violence is pushed at every corner, and war too.

Fearmongering also is much heavier in american TV than anywhere else. All of this casues heavy disconnects from society in a % of the population, so we start to see that break out in extreme cases like this.

Add to that the psychotropic drugging that 50% of the American population is under with Psychiatrists gone insane, and you have a pretty ugly formula developing. Most drugs like Prozac & Benzos are known to cause psychosis and dangerous symptoms both on them and when withdrawing, so it shouldn't come as a surprise. Unfortunately big pharma is a trillion dollar industry with a vested interest in keeping everyone drugged up via their psychiatric drug dealers, who themselves have a huge vested interest as their livelihood depends on keeping their patients crazy so they keep making money too.

In the entire history of psychiatry no one has ever been cured, and yet every year more people are being drugged & prescribed as psychiatric patients. I think the new DSM-5 manual that just came out makes every single human emotion a psychiatric illness that can be fixed with some pill.

#53 Gaius Quentius Quentii

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 04:01 PM

View PostPht, on 17 December 2012 - 04:37 PM, said:

Yeah, I get it already: after such a terrible tragedy, you class acts will be mad at anyone who dares to think that the people should have been able to be equipped to defend the children given into their care; and hugging your irrational emotionalism; regardless of the consequences of your way of (not really) thinking.

You should be ashamed of yourself.


Oh, so the school folks were to blame. But shame on me.

And shame on me for (not really) thinking that, with the victims not even in the morgue yet, it wasn't the time to have this conversation — because it wasn't about you. Call it emotional; other (mature) people might call it simple decency. Where's that on your manhood checklist, my preening manly man?

Yes, those educators should be lionized, but let's not equivocate. "Force disparity"? They weren't attacked by abstract terms. They faced down a high-powered semi-automatic rifle and a pair of semi-automatic pistols, not a knife or a slingshot or a bow and arrow. Without a prop.

Because they were grownups. Because they had to. Because it wasn't about them.

Narcissism's for shooters and "sheepdogs" who can't see the world for the sheep.

#54 Gattling Fenn

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 04:29 PM

View PostRyft, on 14 December 2012 - 03:23 PM, said:


I don't usually feel moved to make a political statement in the wake of a terrible event like this. It seems like a cheap tactic. However, the real tragedy is deeper than even this sad day. The real tragedy to me is why this keeps happening! When will people learn from the past and guard their futures with common sense?

These horrible things happen because deranged individuals targets places where victims dwell in large numbers.

And by victims, I mean people who can't shoot back. People like children, and people like teachers who can't carry legally at work (because it's a school campus).

There is a reason that you don't hear about mass rampage shootings at police departments or biker rallies. Certain types of individuals are known to carry weapons, and to shoot back when provoked. Terrorists do not target their victims randomly... they are bullies who prey on the weak.

A disarmed population is a vulnerable one. No one seems to get this. Everyone seems afraid of the common sense solution.

My deepest sympathies to anyone involved in this terrible event. Even for those not personally touched by this act of violence, it casts a dark cloud over what should be a happy time of year.


At the risk of sounding political, I'm just going to make one comment here. The boys mother had firearms and no gun safe.

Don't ban firearms, make gun safes mandatory. This little lunatic wouldn't have been able to get those weapons had they been in a safe.

My thoughts are with the families, this is made worse by the fact that it was just prior to Christmas.

#55 Quinn Allard

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 11:46 PM

A sick individual killed and destroyed....not a piece of metal called a gun. I could kill you with a screwdriver or my car just as easy. BTW, I am licensed to carry in 3 states. I carry all the time, so does most of my family INCLUDING my wife. You would never know it, just like the tens of thousands of people we have been around the past years while carrying. All it takes is that ONCE when some guy decides he wants to **** my wife, steal my car, break into my house, or take what isnt his. Just that ONCE can change your life FOREVER. I carry because its my Constitutional right as an American citizen. I honor the memories of the fallen soldiers by excersizing that right, and I'll be damned if a politician or activist group is going to take that away from me. I have sympathy for the families in CT, however I wince at the media backlash against guns AND VIDEOGAMES. Grabbing at straws. They need to talk about the poor parenting, maybe the bullying at school, the TV shows, rap songs, and lack of a friggin moral compass. If the National Gaurd comes a'knockin on my door asking for guns (like they did after Katrina), my answer is "What guns? No guns here..."


edit: BTW training in firearms has nothing to do with preventing voilent crime, just google Police or Military voilent acts/shootings/murders and you will see.

edit2: So what happens when you outlaw guns??? The criminals that get them now will have a change of heart? Obama himself will sweep clean every street in America (when he cant even clean up Chicago)? OR WILL IT BE A BUFFET OF CHEAP AND PLENTIFUL GUNS...know what happens when Supply outweighs demand? INFLATION! The price of the guns will PLUMET! The streets will be flooded with guns, however dont worry, crime will decrease by 300%! Especially crimse involving firearms OR crimes that could have been prevented with a Firearm.....know how long it takes for a fellow to kick your door in, find your daughter, and have his way? Like 10 minutes max. Know how long in the major cities it takes for police to arrive and check out the situation? Almost 20 minutes. Someone tried to kick in my double deadbolted back door years ago, I called 911, told the guy on the line and on the other side of the door I was armed and waited for Police....this was with my wife and a child in the home at roughly 930pm. It took them 14 minutes to find my house and knock on my door. Imagine the things he could have done in 14 minutes if my door wasnt throughly secured and I wasnt armed or worse wasnt home and my wife and 9 year old nephew were.

Edited by Quinn Allard, 18 December 2012 - 11:57 PM.


#56 Mister Blastman

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 10:09 AM

View PostMavairo, on 16 December 2012 - 08:46 AM, said:

Even with incidents like this, we still have less violent crime per 100,000 people than most of our neighbors across the pond.
http://www.dailymail...Africa-U-S.html

So don't try and pull the "no guns solves everything" it doesn't.


Darn right.

The majority of gun crime... well, any crime occurs in areas that have restrictions on self-defense.

We have a local city, Kennesaw, GA, that enacted a law requiring all residents to have a weapon. Guess what happened? Crime went through the Earth.

We should all carry.

An armed society is a polite society.

#57 Mister Blastman

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 10:12 AM

View PostGattling Fenn, on 18 December 2012 - 04:29 PM, said:


At the risk of sounding political, I'm just going to make one comment here. The boys mother had firearms and no gun safe.

Don't ban firearms, make gun safes mandatory. This little lunatic wouldn't have been able to get those weapons had they been in a safe.

My thoughts are with the families, this is made worse by the fact that it was just prior to Christmas.


He was a smart lunatic, though. He'd still have gotten them if he wanted.

No, the real problem was all the hoops his mom had to jump through to get him institutionalized. If it was easier to get him mental health assistance, none of this might have happened.

Liberals, however, would rather see people thrown in prison to rot than put them in an asylum. Why? Cause asylums are evil! They give people shock therapy, thorazine labotomies and other atrocities!

Wait.

When we prolifically used asylums in the 1950's we had far less violent crime... Hmmmmmmmmmm.

Maybe they weren't so bad after all.

#58 Gattling Fenn

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 10:16 AM

View PostMister Blastman, on 20 December 2012 - 10:12 AM, said:


He was a smart lunatic, though. He'd still have gotten them if he wanted.

No, the real problem was all the hoops his mom had to jump through to get him institutionalized. If it was easier to get him mental health assistance, none of this might have happened.

Liberals, however, would rather see people thrown in prison to rot than put them in an asylum. Why? Cause asylums are evil! They give people shock therapy, thorazine labotomies and other atrocities!

Wait.

When we prolifically used asylums in the 1950's we had far less violent crime... Hmmmmmmmmmm.

Maybe they weren't so bad after all.



Actually you are quite right, I learned about this shortly after making this post but never bothered to update my post. The primary reason this kid went on a shooting spree was he found out his mother was attempting to get him institutionalized. He found this out because institutionalizing someone in that state is a ******* nightmare, I live in Illinois, my mother has bipolar disorder, she has gone psychotic numerous times, and it's always a battle with the courts to get her the help she needs.

So in large part, you can thank the ACLU and their willingness to fight anyone on anything for this event.

#59 Pht

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 10:50 AM

View PostColonel Pada Vinson, on 18 December 2012 - 09:41 AM, said:

It's American Culture. Canada has more guns per capita than America, with almost none of the same issues.

Bowling for Columbine explains it all pretty well.


BFC does? How, exactly does it? Details?

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Primarily it's the medias glorification of violence and war in general in American TV that has a heavy influence on the public.


This didn't happen because of the immoral way in which the media handles violence.

This happened because the shooter decided to do it, and he decided to do it because he was a hateful person. Basic human nature + lack of internal moral constraint = problems.

Besides which, the whole media forms culture forms people/people form culture forms media thing is a feedback loop with no stopping point; it can be endlessly argued in both directions and will never resolve the argument.

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In Europe you can watched naked men & women on normal TV after midnight. There is little sexual frustration and much more liberation, combined with a lot less violence in TV & movies.


What you are pushing here - libertinism - Moral anarchy - everyone does whatever they desire, no boundaries - produces misery; always has, always will, wether it be anarchy in sexual mores or other morals.

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vs in America where sex is much more extreme in **** while at the same time limited to the fringe and the internet instead of normalized, while violence is pushed at every corner, and war too.


Your own logic refutes itself - in america you can watch violence on normal TV, there is little destructive frustration and much more liberation.

... so, according to what you've said, we should have LESS violence.


... which is it?

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Add to that the psychotropic drugging that 50% of the American population is under with Psychiatrists gone insane, and you have a pretty ugly formula developing. Most drugs like Prozac & Benzos are known to cause psychosis and dangerous symptoms both on them and when withdrawing, so it shouldn't come as a surprise. Unfortunately big pharma is a trillion dollar industry with a vested interest in keeping everyone drugged up via their psychiatric drug dealers, who themselves have a huge vested interest as their livelihood depends on keeping their patients crazy so they keep making money too.

In the entire history of psychiatry no one has ever been cured, and yet every year more people are being drugged & prescribed as psychiatric patients. I think the new DSM-5 manual that just came out makes every single human emotion a psychiatric illness that can be fixed with some pill.


I pretty much agree with you here. The head-shrinkers are in the buisness of making victims out of everyone, doing a disservice to those who really aren't in need of serious help and really screwing over those who really DO need help.

View PostQuentius, on 18 December 2012 - 04:01 PM, said:


Oh, so the school folks were to blame.


View PostPht, on 17 December 2012 - 04:18 PM, said:


His supposed mental illness is not to blame.

He (the shooter) harbored hate in his thoughts and emotions, and than made the sinful choice - himself - to carry out this act. He is the one that caused this, he is the one that is responsible for it.

...
If there is anything else for others to be blamed for,


I couldn't have more clearly posted that the shooter bears the blame for the shooting, and that what followed was discussion of blame for things OTHER than the responsiblity for the shootings.


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But shame on me.

And shame on me for (not really) thinking that, with the victims not even in the morgue yet, it wasn't the time to have this conversation —


The time-tested tactic of appealing to people's emotions instead of their minds to try and squash an argument. :D

Don't show how what you think is right - just make the other side shut up and go away.

...


When is it the appropriate time to discuss this? When this happens four more times, in four more places where people are forced to be unable to defend themselves with equality?

At what point will this argument have to be based on a somehow less painful reality? When will this NOT bring up painful emotions for those who were the victims of these things?

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"Force disparity"? They weren't attacked by abstract terms.


Which you than follow up with ... abstract symobols, glowing on a computer screen, that you expect everyone to understand represent physical realities.

You attack me for using language and than you use language. :(


View PostGattling Fenn, on 18 December 2012 - 04:29 PM, said:


At the risk of sounding political, I'm just going to make one comment here. The boys mother had firearms and no gun safe.

Don't ban firearms, make gun safes mandatory. This little lunatic wouldn't have been able to get those weapons had they been in a safe.


... if they had been locked away in her safe, he would have been able to have gotten them elsewhere. For that matter, he could have easily made one. Or just picked up any of a number of gardening implements from any of a vast number of carports... etc, etc, etc.

Besides which, even if it were possible to remove his ability to get *any* force multiplier (impossible) he still could have killed people. "But he probably couldn't have kiled as many..." ... since when was one human life worth less than more than one? All human life is of incalculable value.

Make reasonable attempts to keep criminals from getting guns? Sure. Force everyone else by law backed up by the power of the state to bear hardship based on the standard that "some criminal moron did this, now we are forcing you to suffer for it, even though you had not part in it" ... no

Edited by Pht, 20 December 2012 - 11:02 AM.


#60 superbob

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 12:05 PM

So how exactly did the guy smuggle an assault rifle into an elementary school? Or for that matter, how come killers sneak guns into gun-free zones? What's the point of making those if you're not really going to enforce the disarmament to any meaningful extent?

I know that a determined freak will eventually crack the security, devise a plan, obtain an illegal gun and make the news with a new high score, but this last case doesn't sound like someone who had the time or the motivation to do that. In my foreign opinion, if gun-free zones were taken seriously enough, as fortresses from a security standpoint (ones with locked doors and security cameras, not with guard towers), some shootings might have been prevented.

This sounds to me like it's not really a matter of reevaluating whether or not the people can safely carry arms, but can their lawgivers provide them safety where they are forbidden from carrying arms.





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