12 replies to this topic

[Saarna]

The suggestion:

Make the Night Vision (and of course Eye Ball Mk1) the only mode standard to all mechs, with the option to pick either Zoom, Advanced Zoom or Heat Vision as an additional module.

A less extreme, but also less consequential solution could be making the thermals incompatible with either Zoom mode, any magnification cancelling Heat Vision and vice versa.

The reasoning:

The Heat Vision is currently all too powerful and prevalent, to the point that there is practically no reason to ever switch it off save maybe the occasional visual ID in heavy ECM environments in 8vs8. To name a few specific problems at the moment:

• Spotting and sniping are down to noticing the bright blue dot appear in the distance, and it is practically the same wether the target presents a minimal profile or sits out in the open
  
• Concealed positions for firing, spotting etc. are non-existent
  
• Tactical manoeuvres are easily observed, since the tiniest flicker of blue is enough to give away your position
  
• NVG's are especially useless, since thermals have a longer range and conveniently highlight any enemies

Addendum:

A friend of mine had an interesting idea to complement the less prevalent thermals, by making the TAG highlight a painted target's outline to all teammates. This would in effect turn long range sniping from God eye lonewolfing to sniper/spotter teamwork, at least in cluttered environments, like River City, Frozen City (day) and Forest Colony.

Any discussion, arguments and critique are welcome, but please don't base them solely on such limitation being unrealistic in a 31st century war machine - after all, we are talking about hulking giants weighing the same or little more than main battle tanks of today, firing at each other an arsenal with an effective range of mere hundreds of meters.

[WiCkEd]

Sounds like you're making good use of the thermal feature. Ever used it IRL? It's that effective. I'm happy with it. It's much less effective on the Caustic Map. As far as optics do go. I think it would be much more aesthetic and easy on the eyes if the Thermal/NV only occupied the glass on the cockpit as opposed to the entire screen. I find myself wondering if I am viewing this through the Neurohelmet which feeds me NV/Thermal. Could it be the actual Glass of the individual cockpits that revealed thermal. I.E. the rest of the cockpit is still visible in the ambient spectrum? Would make much easier for me to handle as I find staying in thermal mode a bit blinding.

[Critical Fumble]

I think thermal is still useful in caustic, bright objects against a less bright surface draw my attention better than dark objects against a midtone surface.

Interesting idea, and one that makes be realize I want a thermal cancelling hull. It would probably lead to people choosing thermal for the most part, though, as both frozen city day and river city night make zoom useless without thermal vision.

I like your friend's idea about adding a highlight feature to TAG, seeing as the poor thing is still less than useful on most mechs that are actually supposed to carry it. Apply it to NARC while you're at it; it needs love, and we desperately need more non-vocal communication.

For the record, this is the first "nerf thermal vision" thread I've seen.

Joking
Mostly

[Tracy Scoggins]

I'd like to see Thermal as an unlockable module as well - and possibly have it work less efficiently at longer ranges.
It's a bit silly that I can spot a Raven's knee poking from behind a tree at way further ranges than I can actually shoot..
Would be interesting to see Night Vision get some augments as well - better range for one.
As it is, thermal does the exact same thing NV does except it highlights the enemy for me..
Maybe make it a high-cost unlockable module?
I know it would cause a massive shitstorm of complaints from people who've grown accustomed to having every enemy highlighted in pretty bright blue, but it would probably also give people a reason to use NV or *gasp* non-augmented vision
Might be a good idea to give it some other downside aswell, other than it using up a module slot.
I also like the idea of thermal-absorbing hulls that'd cost more and take more space (like endo and ferro) but make you less like a blue Rudolph the Raindeer

TL;DR:
-Thermal needs to be much less effective at extreme ranges
-Thermal needs a downside (other than module slot taken)
-Thermal should be a high-cost unlockable module
-There should be a thermal-absorbing hull (expensive and takes more space/tons)
-TAG and NARC should show as bright "pings" on thermal and NV (just as existing military target markers do)
-Night Vision needs a buff (range + TAG/NARC pings?

[Saarna]

WiCkEd, on 22 December 2012 - 04:15 AM, said:

Sounds like you're making good use of the thermal feature. Ever used it IRL? It's that effective.

Well, that's kinda the point; I'm not making good use, I just press the button and leave it on like everyone else. And sure, IRL thermals are effective enough, but that really doesn't matter - after all any contemporary tank would outrange any Mech by four to ten times. The only consideration should be gameplay, to which thermals are a detriment at the moment. Think how many player actions or features and effects already in game have little or no impact on how the game is played:

Target profile, distance, or movement make no difference. The enemy could be stealthily peeking over/around cover or sitting out in the open, thermals will see them regardless. They could be right next to you or two clicks away on the other side of the map, thermals see them bright as day. Or they could be absolutely still, blazing at a 150 kph or perhaps dastardly flanking you under ECM, if they're not covered by some terrain feature down to the last pixel, they might as well be carrying neon blue billboards announcing their exact location to anyone looking in their general direction.

Weather makes no difference either, clear day, thick fog or a raging blizzard? Thermal sees through all. Same applies to time of day, sunshine or pitch black, thermal blue is all you'll see. This not only makes all alternate maps a waste of manhours, but also makes maps differ from each other only in geography (even if Caustic is more green than blue). Heck, even the climate (texturing, visual effects, anything that makes maps stand apart) is rendered neutral by the fact that in the end you're gonna be staring at different shades of blue. And frankly, after several thousand matches, this is starting to matter more and more.

I would like to list some positive effects of thermals as well, but I'm pretty hard pressed to find any. Maybe seeing that irritating sniper out there somewhere is worth it to some? For me at least they just make the game less diverse on nearly all accounts. While you could argue that one could just refrain from using the heat vision, in practical terms this would translate to playing any other shooter blindfolded.

Critical Fumble, on 22 December 2012 - 04:36 AM, said:

It would probably lead to people choosing thermal for the most part, though, as both frozen city day and river city night make zoom useless without thermal vision.

I like your friend's idea about adding a highlight feature to TAG, seeing as the poor thing is still less than useful on most mechs that are actually supposed to carry it. Apply it to NARC while you're at it; it needs love, and we desperately need more non-vocal communication.

You actually had the solution in the very next paragraph
Instead of trusting all-powerful thermals, you could paint targets out to 750 meters yourself, or rely on teammates lasing them for you. Or you could pick the unmagnified thermals, which would allow you to see more clearly, but not spot or hit the smallest hints of heat accurately at medium to long distances.

Edited by Saarna, 22 December 2012 - 08:18 AM.

[Critical Fumble]

Saarna, on 22 December 2012 - 08:15 AM, said:

Spoiler

Well, that's kinda the point; I'm not making good use, I just press the button and leave it on like everyone else. And sure, IRL thermals are effective enough, but that really doesn't matter - after all any contemporary tank would outrange any Mech by four to ten times. The only consideration should be gameplay, to which thermals are a detriment at the moment. Think how many player actions or features and effects already in game have little or no impact on how the game is played:
Target profile, distance, or movement make no difference. The enemy could be stealthily peeking over/around cover or sitting out in the open, thermals will see them regardless. They could be right next to you or two clicks away on the other side of the map, thermals see them bright as day. Or they could be absolutely still, blazing at a 150 kph or perhaps dastardly flanking you under ECM, if they're not covered by some terrain feature down to the last pixel, they might as well be carrying neon blue billboards announcing their exact location to anyone looking in their general direction.
Weather makes no difference either, clear day, thick fog or a raging blizzard? Thermal sees through all. Same applies to time of day, sunshine or pitch black, thermal blue is all you'll see. This not only makes all alternate maps a waste of manhours, but also makes maps differ from each other only in geography (even if Caustic is more green than blue). Heck, even the climate (texturing, visual effects, anything that makes maps stand apart) is rendered neutral by the fact that in the end you're gonna be staring at different shades of blue. And frankly, after several thousand matches, this is starting to matter more and more.
I would like to list some positive effects of thermals as well, but I'm pretty hard pressed to find any. Maybe seeing that irritating sniper out there somewhere is worth it to some? For me at least they just make the game less diverse on nearly all accounts. While you could argue that one could just refrain from using the heat vision, in practical terms this would translate to playing any other shooter blindfolded.

You actually had the solution in the very next paragraph
Instead of trusting all-powerful thermals, you could paint targets out to 750 meters yourself, or rely on teammates lasing them for you. Or you could pick the unmagnified thermals, which would allow you to see more clearly, but not spot or hit the smallest hints of heat accurately at medium to long distances.

Oooh, clever, I like you. I was thinking of sniper builds a focused on burst damage, and TAG does zero. But if you need self-reliance, that's a great option.

[ReguIus]

+1

Few points:

Thermal as a unlockable module wouldn't be a good idea for several reasons.

• New players would have absolutely no chance against guys with "all the purples" in some maps such as Frozen City. They would be seriously gimped in all others too.
  
• Try to compare "Heat Vision" with any of the other available modules at the moment. How often do you think people will take 360 degree target thingy over Heat? Serious internal balance issues are guaranteed.
  
• Given enough time, you're essentially back at square one because any sane person would simply unlock the module ASAP

For the gameplay's sake, I agree with the OP 100%. While thermals don't necessarily require nerf themselves, Devs ought to limit their availability somehow. So far, this is the most logical solution I've seen. Yet on the plus side, you might actually start seeing more TAGs. All in all, teamworking Mechs are teamworking.

Keep floating this boat, dear community!

[Mudslinger]

Quote

TL;DR:
-Thermal needs to be much less effective at extreme ranges
-Thermal needs a downside (other than module slot taken)
-Thermal should be a high-cost unlockable module
-There should be a thermal-absorbing hull (expensive and takes more space/tons)
-TAG and NARC should show as bright "pings" on thermal and NV (just as existing military target markers do)
-Night Vision needs a buff (range + TAG/NARC pings?

I have been finding myself playing exclusively in heat mode more and more often (save caustic). Heat signatures are by far the easiest way to pick out pinpoint mechs all the way across the map - no challenge or trick to it. I pretty much only turn off heat mode when I remember the game actually has nice graphics I want to enjoy.

I don't feel like I can enjoy the graphics competitively during a battle most of the time with heat mode off because it is too advantageous to have it on (most of the time).

The OP is right IMO. It needs to be changed up a bit. I agree the OP on the following:

-Thermal needs to be much less effective at extreme ranges
-TAG and NARC should show as bright "pings" on thermal and NV (just as existing military target markers do)

The other ideas are great but get a little too complex; and heat mode has always been a standard for all mechs and their variants. Maybe have a module that increases it's range a bit...maybe.

Reducing its effectiveness at long ranges would go long way in making sniping more challenging and much more interesting. One could actually use the terrain to blend in at long distances effectively. Additionally when ZOOM mode is fixed (and not blurred), snipers would have the challenge of scanning the terrain via ZOOM to discover a target a extreme ranges...much more fun.

Anyhoos...2.5 cents and a lollipop for ya...

[Voidcrafter]

As I stated in the similar topic, don't exactly see making thermal vision module as solution - sooner or later all the players will get it(presuming nothing "changes" in the mechanic).
As for the "change" - to be honest, I've thought alot about it and nothing comes around as good solution.
Picking either zoom, or thermal, or adv. zoom would end up exactly as is now, but with the difference, that you'll be crippled cause of throwing any zoom out of the picture - that would happen since the heat vision is the most versatile choice - you can use it in night, snow, daylight, even it's useful on the volcano map - while the other ones are very good situational choices, try to imagine to hit the river city night without taking the thermal vision, but taking some zoom instead...
Canceling it(the thermal vision) while zooming is not a bad idea, but still will lower the usage of it from ~70-80% to about 50-60% of the time. Any sane person in my shoes(tho those two are kinda opposite ) using the vision the way I do will be 80% of the time not zooming stuff with the vision turned on, just to spot targets more effectively.
Tweaking it's visuals is still making no sense - the way it currently is, with the terrible visuals and all, people use it alot, can't imagine that changes in the right direction if the vision get better graphics
And I completely agree that in it's current state is very effective against ECM enemies tho it probably wasnt intendet to play that role...
I haven't got a clue how this can be fixed, the only thing I complain about is that I can't feel the joy from this game wonderful visuals as often I feel I should...
Or maybe - I dunno - if the vision is expensive module, which turned on displays only the the very-hot-spots, without changing the rest of the visuals, that gets canceled on any sort of zooming(as sugested), and making the night vision a bit more useful and/or clear would be something?
Brawling aint that good with the thermal vision, so prolly alotta people(me included) will evade it in close-combat situations and nights still force us to switch between night and thermal(since it wont change the whole gamma, but it'll show us the targets in the long range).
Yea it counterweights most of the stuff I started with for which I apologize - I have my doubts since I can't imagine the game without it, but still I want to
Sorry for the wall of text and thanks for the attention again.

[ReguIus]

I guess the easiest "fix" would be to make 'Mechs with 0-1% heat significantly less visible in Thermals. (Shut down 'Mechs don't highlight at all, for instance.)

If you're careful, you will be able to "sneak" by moving slowly. If your heat builds up, (say, 5% and up) you're starting to glow blue. This sounds like a natural mechanic to me, and light scouts with camo paints + ECM effectievly gain the ability to infiltrate "behind enemy lines" and TAG targets for LRMs.

Even better, there are a plethora of natural counters to this mechanic already in the game, such as

• Firing a weapon, which builds up heat and you light yourself up (I think even TAG should count as firing a weapon for this purpose. TAGging should always put you at some risk.
  
• Moving too fast, so that your heat increases. This will make you glow. (Many of you must have noticed by now that the more heat you build up, the more bright you'll get in Thermal)
  
• Getting shot. When your armor starts to melt and glow white, you'll light up like a Christmas tree no matter what.

You guys think this could be the little balancing touch we are looking for?

[Bobzilla]

I like the idea to limit it's affective range and maybe a small increase range module, or just take the stealth off of ecm would help too.

[Praeses]

What about using TAG or something new to "blind" the HV, you could point that weapon to a mech that's using HV and the "HV system" would then get "blinded", the effect should last some time (the HV system have to reboot, the sensors need a "cooldown", etc) even if you turn the HV off.

For example

you are using HV and a mech "shoots" this weapons (could be TAG) at your cockpit, then you would be blinded
from here there could be two options

1 - only the HV gets blinded, you can turn it off until the blinding effect goes away
2 - all vision modes gets blinded, you just can't see s**t for some seconds (much like a flashbang)

[ReguIus]

PPC's should make a mess of your electronics. Maybe they could be expanded to vision modes too? Good idea though.