84 replies to this topic

[Spaceghost]

Just wanted to chime in my $.02 here, first, please remember the game is still in beta and is a type of MMO (meaning always in beta) and things will always be adjusted.

Second, the greatest weapon on any battlefield, is information. If you know your enemies' weaknesses, you exploit them to your advantage for maximum effect. So I suggest to you, master a light 'mech, learn their weakness (they have many, more than any other class) so that you can better exploit those weaknesses when playing your preferred class.

My preferred class is light, yet I have mastered at least one 'mech in the other classes just so I know how to better pick them apart, and I use that info to devastating effect. Often accused of exploiting game mechanics or botting but in reality I am just exploiting their 'mechs weaknesses. However, when not piloting a light, I kill many lights as I am intimately aware of their weaknesses.

Light 'mechs are high risk high reward. One alpha blast from any 'mech other than a light will cripple or destroy a light outright. However, if a competent pilot, you can wreak havoc to the opposing team.

Inertia: Inertia grows exponentially with mass, without getting into the mathematics of it, think of it this way, Lights are the Ferraris and Assualts are the Tractor Trailers; a Ferrari does turn on a dime compared to a tractor-trailer.

To whomever above stated that they spectated a light solo 3 assault 'mechs in one match; the only way this can be done is hitting them from behind, repeatedly. Hitting them in the front, it would take the entire 15 min match to do this assuming the light is carrying sufficient ammo (not likely given weight limitations). Most assaults have 80 to 100+ center torso armor with 40 to 80+ side torsos. Assaults will be rotating constantly trying to hit you, you will not be able to single out one section, and given your roughly 20 pt alpha strike, you would run out of time and certainly be out of ammo long before you could do this. Plus, you are a dumb light pilot if you are attacking the front of a 'mech unless you are just trying to get it's attention.

[Fred013]

Spaceghost, on 01 January 2013 - 02:55 PM, said:

Second, the greatest weapon on any battlefield, is information. If you know your enemies' weaknesses, you exploit them to your advantage for maximum effect. So I suggest to you, master a light 'mech, learn their weakness (they have many, more than any other class) so that you can better exploit those weaknesses when playing your preferred class.

Change the raven 3L to something other than streaks and MLAS then change your mind.

Edited by Fred013, 01 January 2013 - 03:12 PM.

[Snib]

Spaceghost, on 01 January 2013 - 02:55 PM, said:

To whomever above stated that they spectated a light solo 3 assault 'mechs in one match; the only way this can be done is hitting them from behind, repeatedly. Hitting them in the front, it would take the entire 15 min match to do this assuming the light is carrying sufficient ammo (not likely given weight limitations). Most assaults have 80 to 100+ center torso armor with 40 to 80+ side torsos. Assaults will be rotating constantly trying to hit you, you will not be able to single out one section, and given your roughly 20 pt alpha strike, you would run out of time and certainly be out of ammo long before you could do this. Plus, you are a dumb light pilot if you are attacking the front of a 'mech unless you are just trying to get it's attention.

Are we playing the same game?

First, only a Commando does that little damage, everything else does more if half reasonably fit (6 flamer Jenners or dual TAG Ravens don't count). A ML Jenner hits for 30 and everybody's favorite ECM Raven will do at least 25.

Then I find myself regularly attacking enemy assaults from the front in a light because my team will typically have softened the front up already and unless the enemy assault runs LBX or SRM weapons (or maybe a bunch of AC/2) he won't ever hit me anyway. Of course, if the enemy is full health then you'll typically attack them from the rear unless you have the armament to go for a headshot (missiles are obviously bad for this).

Further, I'm always concentrating fire on specific sections and have no trouble at all doing so. I can move my arms much faster than an assault can turn.

Finally, if you boat missiles on a light and lose your offensive capability when you run out of ammo then you're doing it wrong. There's no light mech without at least one energy hardpoint.

[Spaceghost]

Snib, on 01 January 2013 - 04:30 PM, said:

Are we playing the same game?

First, only a Commando does that little damage, everything else does more if half reasonably fit (6 flamer Jenners or dual TAG Ravens don't count). A ML Jenner hits for 30 and everybody's favorite ECM Raven will do at least 25.

Then I find myself regularly attacking enemy assaults from the front in a light because my team will typically have softened the front up already and unless the enemy assault runs LBX or SRM weapons (or maybe a bunch of AC/2) he won't ever hit me anyway. Of course, if the enemy is full health then you'll typically attack them from the rear unless you have the armament to go for a headshot (missiles are obviously bad for this).

Further, I'm always concentrating fire on specific sections and have no trouble at all doing so. I can move my arms much faster than an assault can turn.

Finally, if you boat missiles on a light and lose your offensive capability when you run out of ammo then you're doing it wrong. There's no light mech without at least one energy hardpoint.

First, he stated the assaults had taken little to no damage when the light engaged them and the light engaged them head on. Second, missiles regardless of type, cannot be targeted to a single hit location.
What I was trying to get at is the exaggeration used.
The only games I have been able to deliver 900+ dmg in a match are in PUG games (8v8 the damage will be more even across all teammates), and my PUGmates must be having an epic fail. I have long run out of missiles and am relying on lasers (MPL FTW) with the match running at least 12+ minutes and I am on the verge of overheating the entire time. And these are rare games with me the last 'mech standing.

[Selfish]

Spaceghost, on 01 January 2013 - 06:41 PM, said:

Second, missiles regardless of type, cannot be targeted to a single hit location.

Yes, both SRMs and LRMs can target one specific component. SSRMs target three components. SRMs require convergence, while LRMs target the CT but require tightness of spread and a clear shot to hit it. One requires lock, the other aim, the other line of sight for the spread control.

[Snib]

Spaceghost, on 01 January 2013 - 06:41 PM, said:

The only games I have been able to deliver 900+ dmg in a match are in PUG games (8v8 the damage will be more even across all teammates), and my PUGmates must be having an epic fail. I have long run out of missiles and am relying on lasers (MPL FTW) with the match running at least 12+ minutes and I am on the verge of overheating the entire time. And these are rare games with me the last 'mech standing.

You do realize that 8v8 is a fringe game mode and most of the discussion on these forums is based on PUGs? Naturally with a skilled team you'll do far less damage since you'll focus fire.

Selfish, on 02 January 2013 - 01:03 AM, said:

Yes, both SRMs and LRMs can target one specific component. SSRMs target three components. SRMs require convergence, while LRMs target the CT but require tightness of spread and a clear shot to hit it. One requires lock, the other aim, the other line of sight for the spread control.

To be fair he was probably talking about streaks on a light. It's true they spread but they don't hit 3 components as you said - it's only 2 missiles per launcher - and if you fire from close enough they won't spread enough to hit more than a single component when fighting big targets like an assault.

Many people consider streaks fire and forget weapons, but they are not, the location and angle they are fired from is vital. You can do headshots with a Streak Cat if you know what you're doing.

[Selfish]

Snib, on 02 January 2013 - 04:22 AM, said:

To be fair he was probably talking about streaks on a light. It's true they spread but they don't hit 3 components as you said - it's only 2 missiles per launcher - and if you fire from close enough they won't spread enough to hit more than a single component when fighting big targets like an assault.

Many people consider streaks fire and forget weapons, but they are not, the location and angle they are fired from is vital. You can do headshots with a Streak Cat if you know what you're doing.

I saw "missiles, regardless of type" and went for it. My bad. As for aim, I'm talking about initial aiming point. It's my knowledge, which could be wrong, that LRMs target CT. SSRMs target either the CT, the LT, or the RT. SRMs target where you fire them with convergence.

From what I can recall, an SSRM2 will only fire at one, or two (max) components. It just means there's one component that can't be struck by virtue of ammo limit, but could've been included in the shooting process. If I read it wrong then I'd think it would mean that each SSRM2 launcher would target 1/3 components. This makes SSRM2 boating more difficult in both cases, as it potentially averages damage over a larger area.

[Nash]

Oh come on...would you really prefer light mechs if you shoot 1 med laser at them and they would fall apart?

Sure, the lag shield is sometimes a bit annoying but even if there is a lagshield you should know how you could encounter it.

I love light mechs as opponents (in a single one-on-one show) as long as they don't swarm you ^^ but only as long as I'm not driving my light mech.

You think for sure what crap is he talking about? But as it is most times I either have lasers or srms at my mechs and those weapons are imho the best things you should have to deal with a light (yes...ssrm are much better but i don't like them very much so i prefer normal srm's ^^ )

Every light has advanteges and disadvantages and you should know how you could use these things for your benefit.

[Tolkien]

Nash, on 02 January 2013 - 05:09 AM, said:

Oh come on...would you really prefer light mechs if you shoot 1 med laser at them and they would fall apart?

Sure, the lag shield is sometimes a bit annoying but even if there is a lagshield you should know how you could encounter it.

I love light mechs as opponents (in a single one-on-one show) as long as they don't swarm you ^^ but only as long as I'm not driving my light mech.

You think for sure what crap is he talking about? But as it is most times I either have lasers or srms at my mechs and those weapons are imho the best things you should have to deal with a light (yes...ssrm are much better but i don't like them very much so i prefer normal srm's ^^ )

Every light has advanteges and disadvantages and you should know how you could use these things for your benefit.

Lights were like this in MPBT:3025 - they followed tabletop armor and damage except for the cockpit which had minimum 20 armor on any mech (IIRC) just so headshot kills wouldn't be rampant. This is personal opinion but I found light combat in that game much more exciting since one slip up meant you were done for.

Granted in that game they weren't trying to square the circle with role warfare, so an assault mech was actually scary rather than being a dopey slow kid to be punched in the back of the head repeatedly by a trollmando.

[Stone Wall]

Void Angel, on 29 December 2012 - 10:00 PM, said:

The complaints are justified; troll elsewhere.

All the problems with the Lights are related to the netcode - which the devs hope to have fixed sometime in January. Justice is coming, scrubs; justice is coming...

I can hit light mechs fine. Click on my signature to find out how.

[Pan Damonium]

Spaceghost, on 01 January 2013 - 02:55 PM, said:

Inertia: Inertia grows exponentially with mass, without getting into the mathematics of it, think of it this way, Lights are the Ferraris and Assualts are the Tractor Trailers; a Ferrari does turn on a dime compared to a tractor-trailer.

Really? This is your argument for the ability of a light mech to stop almost instantly?

For your own sake, you better get into the mathematics of it. Even better, the physics of it.

Edited by Pan Damonium, 02 January 2013 - 06:01 AM.

[Tolkien]

Stone Wall, on 02 January 2013 - 05:47 AM, said:

I can hit light mechs fine. Click on my signature to find out how.

Your guide explains the process very well, and I recommend all who are having trouble hitting lights to read it.

I submit though that the 'difficulty' to do that properly is very low for low latency (zero extra compensation difficulty at zero latency for lasers since you just need to point at the target ) and then rises in a non-linear fashion as latency goes up, and also as latency becomes less stable.

The first part of this is that it linearizes the targets motion over the player-server-player trip, which is a very good assumption below some threshold depending on how fast the mech can change direction, while the second is that instability in your ping or their ping results in the 'spear' as you put it having a random noise component on the length.

For example if playing from europe with a connection jitter of 35ms against another in the same situation, sqrt((your ping instability)^2+(their ping instability)^2)) is 50ms. A light mech moving at 100km/hr will then take on a 1.4m standard deviation of position along the vector. While you can rake a little to make sure lasers hit, this makes ACs and PPCs a real crap shoot since they are not very wide (I don't know if they count as rays traced to the target, or if they have a hit box around them).

I've read about some people claiming to abuse this by loading up their connection with torrents to increase latency variation which apparently makes them ungodly hard to hit.

YMMV, but again, the post in your sig is well worth the read.

[Snib]

Selfish, on 02 January 2013 - 05:01 AM, said:

I saw "missiles, regardless of type" and went for it. My bad. As for aim, I'm talking about initial aiming point. It's my knowledge, which could be wrong, that LRMs target CT. SSRMs target either the CT, the LT, or the RT. SRMs target where you fire them with convergence.

From what I can recall, an SSRM2 will only fire at one, or two (max) components. It just means there's one component that can't be struck by virtue of ammo limit, but could've been included in the shooting process. If I read it wrong then I'd think it would mean that each SSRM2 launcher would target 1/3 components. This makes SSRM2 boating more difficult in both cases, as it potentially averages damage over a larger area.

Oh ok if you're talking the guidance system then fair enough, you're probably right (I don't actually know). But regardless of where they aim for they do have a certain spread (which for LRMs and SRMs depends on TAG, NARC or Artemis usage and for SSRMs is always the same). It's that X pattern they spread into which you can see best on LRM 20 volleys.

So if you boat SSRM2 (streak cat) and fire from max range you'll indeed spread damage over the entire enemy mech. That's why you need to get up close and personal with streaks to make sure they hit before they even begin to spread (edit: of course the same goes for SRMs but if you have Artemis they'll be tighter than streaks so you can be further out).

Edited by Snib, 02 January 2013 - 06:25 AM.

[Void Angel]

Av3nGer, on 01 January 2013 - 06:41 AM, said:

Why is it that you people have to open the same topics over and over again? Let me make this short: If netcode is fixed and collisions reapplied, everything will be okay for you... lights are just fine as they are. Though I have to admit, I grow impatient with PGI. It's been quite some time now, since they removed collisions...

It's because this is a post by a new player; let me make this short: stop trolling the new player and go away. Your dismissal of his valid opinion rehashes points made in the thread you obviously haven't even read, and actually serves as an explanation of why the OP is right.

Spaceghost, on 01 January 2013 - 02:55 PM, said:

To whomever above stated that they spectated a light solo 3 assault 'mechs in one match; the only way this can be done is hitting them from behind, repeatedly. Hitting them in the front, it would take the entire 15 min match to do this assuming the light is carrying sufficient ammo (not likely given weight limitations). Most assaults have 80 to 100+ center torso armor with 40 to 80+ side torsos. Assaults will be rotating constantly trying to hit you, you will not be able to single out one section, and given your roughly 20 pt alpha strike, you would run out of time and certainly be out of ammo long before you could do this. Plus, you are a dumb light pilot if you are attacking the front of a 'mech unless you are just trying to get it's attention.

Edit before the stupid starts: to be crystal clear, I have less trouble with my Atlas killing another Atlas that is actively fighting me than I have killing a light mech who is ignoring me to zip around my team. The only time I can really hit them is if they're doing the newbie hammer circle strafe around a single target so I can line up on the sides of the circle for a low/zero-deflection shot.

Denial is a sad thing to watch. Your math is totally wrong - which is unsurprising since it's not based on any of those... oh, what did they call them in school...? Oh yeah! Numbers. It's hard to do math without numbers (or placeholders for numbers) - and any light 'mech with energy armaments (which is a lot of them) most certainly can put out enough damage numbers to kill 3 assault 'mechs if the assault 'mech can't fight back - a real possibility with lag shields. A light 'mech with a hypothetical 20 point alpha strike who only lines up a shot ever 5 seconds will still burn through your typical Atlas's center torso in under 30 seconds. Pointing out that the fast, maneuverable 'mech running circles around an assault probably shot it in the back armor is obvious to the point of being painful. It is perfectly possible to put most of your alpha damage on the same location in any case - and even if your accuracy on target is only 50%, you'll still burn down that armor in under 60 seconds.

Nash, on 02 January 2013 - 05:09 AM, said:

Oh come on...would you really prefer light mechs if you shoot 1 med laser at them and they would fall apart?

Sure, the lag shield is sometimes a bit annoying but even if there is a lagshield you should know how you could encounter it.

I love light mechs as opponents (in a single one-on-one show) as long as they don't swarm you ^^ but only as long as I'm not driving my light mech.

You think for sure what crap is he talking about? But as it is most times I either have lasers or srms at my mechs and those weapons are imho the best things you should have to deal with a light (yes...ssrm are much better but i don't like them very much so i prefer normal srm's ^^ )

Every light has advanteges and disadvantages and you should know how you could use these things for your benefit.

"Come on, that thing no one asked for is perfectly silly, so you're wrong! What? I'm not putting words in your mouth, I'm just overstating for the sake of emphasis! No, really!" Lasers are indeed the primary means of having a snowball's chance in hell of hitting a light with any given shot. But since the shield varies (and there are other exploits related to the code as well) with latency as well as speed, it's very difficult to actually get in good hits.

Stone Wall, on 02 January 2013 - 05:47 AM, said:

I can hit light mechs fine. Click on my signature to find out how.

I'm quite able to hit light 'mechs as well, but "just fine" does not cover any situation where I have to play "guess where the invisible Battlemech is" in order to damage lights - and that's if they're not deliberately manipulating the game code and/or their connection to teleport around the screen and cause rubberbanding for both of us.

Lights with lag shields are particularly unfair when they charge your fire support 'mechs or snipers and it takes half your team to drive them off; the disproportionate difficulty of killing the 'mech (it is MUCH easier for me to kill another Atlas) means that if even if they eventually die, the distraction makes their team win.

Edit before someone says something stupid: To be clear, I have less trouble killing an Atlas who is actively fighting me than I have killing a light ECM 'mech who is concentrating on weaving around my fire support 'mechs like Billy from the Family Circus on his way home. The only time I have a decent chance of scoring a solid hit is if he's doing the newbie strafe and just walking in a circle.

Edited by Void Angel, 07 January 2013 - 02:51 PM.

[bantapoo]

the main issue with light is that the netcode can't handle the speed of those light.
It is easier to reduce the speed of all mechs proportionally than fix the netcode.
I estimate that the lag shield start to take effect around 100kph.
make light max speed (with speed tweak) 100kph, medium 80, heavy 60, assault 50.

[SectionZ]

I opened this thread hoping somebody had discovered how to get that "Cockpit Light" button to work right. Light MECHS are so far from my mind from Godmode that I didn't even realize the connection until I opened the thread.

If a light is giving you trouble, attempt to apply teamwork. MORE LASERS is the solution to many problems, even legs protected by supposed voodoo and internet magic.

Not sure if your full laser salvo will hit? CHAINFIRE. I've had Raven pilots compliment my aim after killing them, when all I did was spam infinite duration Medium laser chainfire (you need four, for an ubroken perma beam), adding ballistics or SRMs to taste. That's not skill, that's having the ability to move a mouse.

If half your team can't hit one light that never runs away as some claim within effective laser range, the problem likely is not the light mech.

[Von Claussen]

Chainfire is an inefficient solution for people who can't land their shots consistently. All chainfire does is increase the amount of time you have to hold your laser on the opponent. If you are truly accurate with your lasers then the weighted damage of firing them at once will prove much more beneficial since you will also be able to torso-twist and deflect damage in the meantime. Furthermore, there is no way that a larger mech will be able to turn fast enough to keep a PROPERLY outfitted light in their sight at all times. This is why you want to take the openings that you can make, land your damage, and then turn the other way to catch them coming around again. Lasers do tend to work well, but SRMs and even ballistics can work as long as you LEAD your target.

[Kattspya]

Pariah Devalis, on 31 December 2012 - 01:15 PM, said:

To be fair to PGI, and completely circumventing the beta is beta argument which is true to a certain extent, one must also realize they have a very small development team at the moment. Very small. What, 50 people? Most modern games have closer to 100 people working on them. They are also being funded primarily through those of us who give them money in game. If we do not pay, they cannot afford to hire the staff they need to improve on the game. It creates two paths: One where nobody pays because it is broken and the game never gets fixed and dies completely, or one where people pay, fund PGI's efforts to make the game, and it gets worked out down the road with the game thriving.

This game has a code quality that falls way below the beta releases of several of the more polished mods for various games. And that is with a slower release cycle and poorer testing to boot. These mods have much smaller teams working on their spare time and you're defending PGI?

The current state of the game is indefensible

[Void Angel]

Nothing beats Galaxies. Everything else is a step up. The code issues are an incidental product of a valid security measure, and are related to the core game engine - not a mod. Mods don't have to worry about creating their own netcode, since they are an overlay of a finished game. Comparing the development of an addon directly to the development of a core game is invalid logic. Similarly, your complaint is internally inconsistent: you take a shot at them coming; for having the netcode issue - and going; for not putting out m0ar Contentz while a portion of their team is dedicated to fixing the first issue you complained about. Pick one; I'm getting whiplash.

Your whine is indefensible. Please go away.

[sycocys]

I didn't read all the posts - but in my lights I usually die when I encounter someone that can shoot if I make so much as one wrong move. People that just decide the match is over when they see a light or have no ability to lead me get chewed up whether I solo or run with another mech.

I mention poor shooting skills because I see a lot of people with very poor skills even against heavys and assaults which in turn would make it quite impossible for them to kill a light mech. If you can't hold your shots on a lumbering house, how can you expect to even have a chance at hitting the motorcycle whizzing around it?

That being said there are issues with the netcode that can make it tougher than it should be for good players as well, but the grand majority of those guys are quite good at compensating for the netcode already.