23 replies to this topic

[nimrodusmaximus]

Did they get stealth buffed in the last patch or wut...

doing that is really lame... but seems like PGI thinks its cool...

[Serapth]

They seem no different to me. If anything I would say they are doing slightly less damage.

What you are seeing is the ECM effect. Finally ECM is starting to winnow out again, so people are bringing LRM boats back into play. All the people that developed crappy habits from the ECMfest we've been having are getting stomped as a result.


In other words, get out of the damned water!

[nimrodusmaximus]

Fair enuff. I've been out of it for a month on vacation...

Serapth, on 11 January 2013 - 09:24 AM, said:

They seem no different to me. If anything I would say they are doing slightly less damage.

What you are seeing is the ECM effect. Finally ECM is starting to winnow out again, so people are bringing LRM boats back into play. All the people that developed crappy habits from the ECMfest we've been having are getting stomped as a result.


In other words, get out of the damned water!

[Kousagi]

Ya can't really say its crappy habbits since ECM has been in, cause ya know, Direct fire weapons still mess you up if you are in the open. Thing is LRM's have always been pretty OP, ECM is what kept them at bay, now that ECM is waning LRM's are making a return as the go to weapon for people that can't aim, and don't want to bother learning too much. I mean, LRM's are the easiest weapon to use in the game and the hardest hitting for its weight/crit/heat.

Also, do not preach that Cover is the counter to LRM's, as Cover counters every weapon, cause ya can't shoot what ya can't see... Thing is LRM's go over stuff... so cover is not always a something one can have, especially when you are engaged vs another mech, since sitting still behind cover means you die super fast cause they cockpit you for sitting still trying to take cover from LRM's.

[Serapth]

Kousagi, on 11 January 2013 - 09:32 AM, said:

I mean, LRM's are the easiest weapon to use in the game and the hardest hitting for its weight/crit/heat.

I disagree with this, depending on how you are playing. In a good premade, with a dedicated tag'er/spoter, yeah, LRMs are pretty easy. You find good cover and nuke the crap out of the designated targets.

In a pug game with no coordination, running an LRM boat is one of the hardest mechs to play, especially with ECM. PUGs dont body guard LRM mechs, and they are dead meat in < 200m, so a lot of it is position. Another thing people dont realize if they dont LRM, is how easy it is to dump 5 tons of LRMs into the mountain side.

Frankly I would say there is more skill in being successful with LRMs than with any other weapon. Although I would agree, LRMs are the easiest weapon system to get a 100+ damage with. You can be a horrid LRM pilot and still get a few lucky shots in before being taken down, but you certainly wont be an efficient pilot.

[Noth]

Kousagi, on 11 January 2013 - 09:32 AM, said:

Ya can't really say its crappy habbits since ECM has been in, cause ya know, Direct fire weapons still mess you up if you are in the open. Thing is LRM's have always been pretty OP, ECM is what kept them at bay, now that ECM is waning LRM's are making a return as the go to weapon for people that can't aim, and don't want to bother learning too much. I mean, LRM's are the easiest weapon to use in the game and the hardest hitting for its weight/crit/heat.

Also, do not preach that Cover is the counter to LRM's, as Cover counters every weapon, cause ya can't shoot what ya can't see... Thing is LRM's go over stuff... so cover is not always a something one can have, especially when you are engaged vs another mech, since sitting still behind cover means you die super fast cause they cockpit you for sitting still trying to take cover from LRM's.

LRMs were the only weapon in teh game you could actively move to cover to avoid while they were in flight. I never had trouble with LRMs before ECM. In fact I saw less LRMs without ECM than I do now in pugs. Yes it took some effort to avoid them, but you could. Also ECM doesn't keep them in check, it just makes the team with the most ECM able to use them while the team with less ECM is unable to. That actually makes them stronger than they were previously since the power gap between teams that use them can be drastically larger.

[Bad Karma 308]

Kousagi, on 11 January 2013 - 09:32 AM, said:

Ya can't really say its crappy habbits since ECM has been in, cause ya know, Direct fire weapons still mess you up if you are in the open. Thing is LRM's have always been pretty OP, ECM is what kept them at bay, now that ECM is waning LRM's are making a return as the go to weapon for people that can't aim, and don't want to bother learning too much. I mean, LRM's are the easiest weapon to use in the game and the hardest hitting for its weight/crit/heat.

yeah.......because current day use of heavy artillery and MLRS support using radar, GPS, and direct fire support is so OP. I mean all they do is receive fire coordinates and push the button. We shouldn't have something like that on a battlefield!

/sarcasm

Since its inception, artillery has always been the heavy weight on the battlefield. Even main battle tanks button up and try to hide when arty is inbound. They don't call artillery the king of the battlefield for nothing.......

[Volthorne]

Kousagi, on 11 January 2013 - 09:32 AM, said:

Ya can't really say its crappy habbits since ECM has been in, cause ya know, Direct fire weapons still mess you up if you are in the open. Thing is LRM's have always been pretty OP, ECM is what kept them at bay, now that ECM is waning LRM's are making a return as the go to weapon for people that can't aim, and don't want to bother learning too much. I mean, LRM's are the easiest weapon to use in the game and the hardest hitting for its weight/crit/.

What about those people who would willingly choose a fire-support role? A 1.5 ton piece of equipment essentially turns my 65 ton Catapult into a slow, up-armoured Jenner. My previously effective (I define "effective" as high damage but low kill count) build is now rendered useless for anything except capturing bases and such. LRMs were only ever "OP" when 2-3 'Mechs were working in conjunction with a spotter (you know, how fire support /should/ be played). Your unimaginative cookie-cutter argument marks you as one of those who would rather that LRMs be a non-factor in the bigger scheme of things. YOU LOSE. GOOD DAY, SIR.

[GODzillaGSPB]

Volthorne, on 11 January 2013 - 09:54 AM, said:

What about those people who would willingly choose a fire-support role? A 1.5 ton piece of equipment essentially turns my 65 ton Catapult into a slow, up-armoured Jenner. My previously effective (I define "effective" as high damage but low kill count) build is now rendered useless for anything except capturing bases and such. LRMs were only ever "OP" when 2-3 'Mechs were working in conjunction with a spotter (you know, how fire support /should/ be played). Your unimaginative cookie-cutter argument marks you as one of those who would rather that LRMs be a non-factor in the bigger scheme of things. YOU LOSE. GOOD DAY, SIR.

Isn't another part of the definition of a supporter that he's not the direct-fire-killer, but rather...a supporter? If the team wants LRM support (I know I do), I mark enemies for them...with TAG. Some of my mechs use it. The only problem is that currently, most LRM-supporter seem to be blind. In 9 of 10 matches, enemies I tag are not fired upon. I've seen my team fire LRMs, but they're not looking out for tagged enemies. Argh!

[Kousagi]

Bad Karma 308, on 11 January 2013 - 09:53 AM, said:

yeah.......because current day use of heavy artillery and MLRS support using radar, GPS, and direct fire support is so OP. I mean all they do is receive fire coordinates and push the button. We shouldn't have something like that on a battlefield!

/sarcasm

Since its inception, artillery has always been the heavy weight on the battlefield. Even main battle tanks button up and try to hide when arty is inbound. They don't call artillery the king of the battlefield for nothing.......

Hmm, last I knew heavy artillery and MLRS support do not track on to a Target, They track to a point on the ground, if its a GPS round. You need a Good FO to hit moving targets. Oh, and god forbid they program the GPS round wrong..... we had someone do that once, round landed 10 miles off target.... was kinda funny, lucky for them is was out in the middle of the desert. Oh, and for artillery, we never really used GPS rounds, Cost way way too much for that little bit of extra precision. Its better just to have 3 triple 7's pound a grid, sure the rounds spread a tad bit, but its not enough to not nail what you are aiming at.

for everyone else, LRM's are still the easiest weapon to use, hands down. Direct firing them when you have LOS is the best way to use them, you don't need a spotter 90% of the time if you have half a brain. Having Tag on your LRM boat also makes it that much more deadly... Plus you should have back up weapons, so any boat caught out can defend itself.

Thing is, a Single LRM 20 can do 36 damage per shot, if all its missiles hit, Sure its not perfectly aimed like other weapons, but its 36 damage for a single weapon system, even if only half of them hit thats still pretty damn nice damage for its weight/crit/heat/range and ease of use.

edit: seems a S with a space then hit is censored....

Edited by Kousagi, 11 January 2013 - 10:20 AM.

[Orzorn]

Kousagi, on 11 January 2013 - 10:18 AM, said:

for everyone else, LRM's are still the easiest weapon to use, hands down. Direct firing them when you have LOS is the best way to use them

Seems like a contradiction in logic to me. If direct firing them is the best way to use them, then they aren't the easiest weapon because their slow projectile speed means you can still miss or have them blocked by a mountain. If I have LOS, my gauss or UAC/5 rounds do not get blocked by a mountain, nor do they slam into the ground (if I lead properly) due to a fast mech out running them. You can't really lead with LRMs, so there isn't a whole lot you can do to ensure they hit faster mechs.

I mean, it isn't any harder to put my mouse on (or slightly ahead of) a target and left click with a ballistic weapon. Laser weapons are even easier. So where does this idea that LRMs are so easy to use come from, especially in the world of ECM reducing indirect fire solutions?

Quote

Thing is, a Single LRM 20 can do 36 damage per shot, if all its missiles hit, Sure its not perfectly aimed like other weapons, but its 36 damage for a single weapon system, even if only half of them hit thats still pretty damn nice damage for its weight/crit/heat/range and ease of use.

Now this, is definitely true. LRMs do pretty ridiculous damage. LRM boating Stalkers are a sight to behold as they can easily one or two shot targets. 80 or so LRMs hitting home on a TAGed target is scary.

Edited by Orzorn, 11 January 2013 - 10:26 AM.

[Volthorne]

GODzillaGSPB, on 11 January 2013 - 10:18 AM, said:

Isn't another part of the definition of a supporter that he's not the direct-fire-killer, but rather...a supporter? If the team wants LRM support (I know I do), I mark enemies for them...with TAG. Some of my mechs use it. The only problem is that currently, most LRM-supporter seem to be blind. &lt;_&lt; In 9 of 10 matches, enemies I tag are not fired upon. I've seen my team fire LRMs, but they're not looking out for tagged enemies. Argh!

Could be a number of reasons for that, one of which is that you're standing in the ECM envelope, which nullifies your TAG. Another reason could be that your teammates just have a case of the derps (personally, I always try and fire on TAGed/NARC'd targets, out of thanks and respect that someone gave up some of their own payload to increase my effectiveness, which indirectly increases THEIR combat effectiveness by about 65 tons).

[Skyfaller]

Kousagi, on 11 January 2013 - 09:32 AM, said:

Ya can't really say its crappy habbits since ECM has been in, cause ya know, Direct fire weapons still mess you up if you are in the open. Thing is LRM's have always been pretty OP, ECM is what kept them at bay, now that ECM is waning LRM's are making a return as the go to weapon for people that can't aim, and don't want to bother learning too much.

I'd say LRM's are there to remove those who can't drive and dont bother to learn about this thing called 'terrain'.

Quote

Also, do not preach that Cover is the counter to LRM's, as Cover counters every weapon, cause ya can't shoot what ya can't see... Thing is LRM's go over stuff... so cover is not always a something one can have, especially when you are engaged vs another mech, since sitting still behind cover means you die super fast cause they cockpit you for sitting still trying to take cover from LRM's.

Fire direct weapon. Target has 0.05 seconds to do something before it hits it.
Fire missiles. Target gets a 10 second warning (@1km) that missiles are incoming and can hide behind cover which will neutralize the entirety of the missile damage.

If you're whining that you die to LRMs while you fighting another mech then grow a pair and a brain since you'd die from a direct fire mech even quicker if he was shooting AT you while you were fighting someone else. I know this for a fact since my quad PPC stalker detonates enemy mechs faster than my 4 LRM20 stalker. Much, much faster.

LRMs are easily avoided. Learn how to do it.

[Mycrus]

If you are an LRM boat, bring a TAG laser for yourself...

I agree though that pilots have developed an over reliance on ECM, i personally took out a DDC via my own TAG.

Once the DDC was down the heavies came tumbling after (and most did not even bother to take cover, so TAG was on them as well)...

CPLT-C4
4LRM15 + Artemis
TAG
XL260

[Joseph Mallan]

GODzillaGSPB, on 11 January 2013 - 10:18 AM, said:

Isn't another part of the definition of a supporter that he's not the direct-fire-killer, but rather...a supporter? If the team wants LRM support (I know I do), I mark enemies for them...with TAG. Some of my mechs use it. The only problem is that currently, most LRM-supporter seem to be blind. In 9 of 10 matches, enemies I tag are not fired upon. I've seen my team fire LRMs, but they're not looking out for tagged enemies. Argh!

Is it because they may be to far away from your TAGged target? I have seen enemies being TAGged 1100M away... K I'll just have to shoot this guy 450M out!

That could be why they didn't fire on your target. Were you on Coms?

[Kousagi]

Skyfaller, on 11 January 2013 - 10:49 AM, said:

I'd say LRM's are there to remove those who can't drive and dont bother to learn about this thing called 'terrain'.



Fire direct weapon. Target has 0.05 seconds to do something before it hits it.
Fire missiles. Target gets a 10 second warning (@1km) that missiles are incoming and can hide behind cover which will neutralize the entirety of the missile damage.

If you're whining that you die to LRMs while you fighting another mech then grow a pair and a brain since you'd die from a direct fire mech even quicker if he was shooting AT you while you were fighting someone else. I know this for a fact since my quad PPC stalker detonates enemy mechs faster than my 4 LRM20 stalker. Much, much faster.

LRMs are easily avoided. Learn how to do it.

Once again, I'll say it.. Cover, is cover, it blocks EVERYTHING. So its kinda a moot point to say people don't know what cover is... since, it blocks everything... not just LRM's...

If your LRM boat is firing missiles at 1,000 meters, then they need to drop the LRM boat, since they will never hit anything at that range, unless their target is brain dead. Now sure direct weapon could hit targets that far, but not for much damage, so its a trade off, no damage fall off at all, for a lower max range.

I'd fight 2 direct fire mechs before I ever dreamed of being able to take on 1 direct fire and 1 LRM boat. As theres tactics I can use to minimize the damage from 1 mech while getting him to hopefully shoot his team mate in the process. LRM boat? no worrys, I just shoot Over my team mate. Aiming? HA! no need for aiming, I just track the red box and nuke you.

Cover from LRMs is not something you can have all the time, If the LRM boat has have a brain they will also be standing about 300-500 meters from the main brawl, so you don't have much time to react, much less any options for cover. They don't have to worry at all for LOS through friendlys either, arcing shots! Though I made a LRM boat stalker for testing, after all these posts, and my god was it rapeage. I even 3 shot a centurion at 400 meters with tag on him as he attempted to close in on me, was kinda sad.... Not that closing in would do him much good, as I do have backups to keep in the fight even at 180m.

[Kell Commander]

Going back to the original topic made by the OP, sometimes Betty's voice bugs and she won't say "Warning. Incoming missile." Happened to me a lot since last patch where I will be too focused on the person I am brawling with and I suddenly find myself pounded by missiles wondering why I did't get a warning. I am learning to pay more attention to the bright red warning indicator again. Betty made me complacent.

As for the ongoing ECM vs LRM argument, LRM's are fine now that:
1)their damage has been massively tweaked
2)their flight paths have been fixed
3)they no longer fly through terrain (those were BAD times...)

ECM still needs a minor tweak. It is needed to prevent complete a stomping via streak boats. However, it does too much for cost, weight, and critical slots. I have played a few games where the other team had a combination of 4 Commandos and Ravens all with streaks and ECMs. A team with that makeup has won every time I have seen it.

[Bad Karma 308]

Kousagi, on 11 January 2013 - 10:18 AM, said:

Hmm, last I knew heavy artillery and MLRS support do not track on to a Target, They track to a point on the ground, if its a GPS round. You need a Good FO to hit moving targets. Oh, and god forbid they program the GPS round wrong..... we had someone do that once, round landed 10 miles off target.... was kinda funny, lucky for them is was out in the middle of the desert. Oh, and for artillery, we never really used GPS rounds, Cost way way too much for that little bit of extra precision. Its better just to have 3 triple 7's pound a grid, sure the rounds spread a tad bit, but its not enough to not nail what you are aiming at.

I've witnessed plenty of M712 round being used in OIF, and it's a 155. So yes heavy artillery can be used to precision engage targets, even moving ones. And while GPS rounds may have been too expensive, I pretty much guarantee you that the artillery FCS are using GPS to fix not only where they are but use it to plot the trajectories to the target coordinates. Maps and charts are still practiced with but rarely only used when the FSC isn't functioning.

I did see a trip7 that was modified with an autoloader. The guys down at Hurlbert were monkeying around with it in the AC-130 to see if it could replace the 105.

But from my time in the Buff the best way to level the area was for us to open the bomb bay doors and just carpet bomb the hell out of the place. Worked every time!

Edited by Bad Karma 308, 11 January 2013 - 11:51 AM.

[Skyfaller]

Kousagi, on 11 January 2013 - 11:23 AM, said:

Once again, I'll say it.. Cover, is cover, it blocks EVERYTHING. So its kinda a moot point to say people don't know what cover is... since, it blocks everything... not just LRM's...

Think about this one more time:

LRM: Warning system + up to 10 seconds warning = you can REACH cover.
DFire: No warning, barely a split second to try and reach cover.

You choose NOT to go into cover. You choose TO stray from proximity to cover.

Quote

If your LRM boat is firing missiles at 1,000 meters, then they need to drop the LRM boat, since they will never hit anything at that range, unless their target is brain dead. Now sure direct weapon could hit targets that far, but not for much damage, so its a trade off, no damage fall off at all, for a lower max range.

You have NO idea how many people get clobbered out to ~800m range LRMs precisely because they strayed from cover and somehow, ignore the 8 second warning they have that pain is on the way. Direct fire weapons actually do a lot of damage past 1km. My AC sniper boat takes down atlases at 1500m. He wasnt in cover or near cover either.

Quote

I'd fight 2 direct fire mechs before I ever dreamed of being able to take on 1 direct fire and 1 LRM boat. As theres tactics I can use to minimize the damage from 1 mech while getting him to hopefully shoot his team mate in the process. LRM boat? no worrys, I just shoot Over my team mate. Aiming? HA! no need for aiming, I just track the red box and nuke you.

If the LRM is inside 500m theres a very high chance the LRMs will hit the friendly mech turnfighting you. The missiles have no time to reach high altitude before heading down...hence they strike at chest level. This is why under 500m LRMs become very deadly...the spread hits the entire torso whereas at longer range it hits from above and roughly 30% of the missiles will miss the mech entirely.

The tactic to make the LRM support not hurt you much is to either rush the LRM boat inside 200m or disengage and head to cover and fight the Dfire mech there. Most LRM boats will not follow you behind cover (duh). If you think you can kill the Dfire mech and then the LRM boat then no wonder you're dying like a nooblet. Prioritize the highest threat first. LRM at medium range is a very high threat.

Quote

Cover from LRMs is not something you can have all the time, If the LRM boat has have a brain they will also be standing about 300-500 meters from the main brawl, so you don't have much time to react, much less any options for cover. They don't have to worry at all for LOS through friendlys either, arcing shots! Though I made a LRM boat stalker for testing, after all these posts, and my god was it rapeage. I even 3 shot a centurion at 400 meters with tag on him as he attempted to close in on me, was kinda sad.... Not that closing in would do him much good, as I do have backups to keep in the fight even at 180m.

Yes, you can and do have cover from LRMs in every map. Every 10 to 20m in fact. Rushing around without staying near cover is why you're dying. I play both brawlers, snipers and LRM mechs...some of them are so heavy they barely run at 30kph and I die very rarely to LRM fire. I keep cover close... and I know how to because I do play an LRM mech and I know what/when/where LRMs can and cannot hit me.

You on the other hand, just whine about it & will keep dying to them since you refuse to learn to avoid LRMs.

[Zerethon]

Orzorn, on 11 January 2013 - 10:25 AM, said:

Now this, is definitely true. LRMs do pretty ridiculous damage. LRM boating Stalkers are a sight to behold as they can easily one or two shot targets. 80 or so LRMs hitting home on a TAGed target is scary.

My cata C1(F) has 2x LRM15+Artemis and TAG (@1.8 per missle, that's 54 damage) which can -INSTANTLY- kill almost any mech if i have LOS. (TAG/artemis missles have much improved grouping, fire them from high by jumpjetting, and it's a nearly-guarenteed 35+ damage headshot)

Or, if you're good, fire them locked, lose your lock, wait until you have just enough time, then re-TAG and lock, all missles suddenly Sharp-curve along the ground and smash into your target in one tight shotgun blast of pain. Great on assault backsides.

LRM's aren't dead, Bad LRM users are though.