53 replies to this topic

[Mahws]

Why are ECM light mechs the only viable option? Is it because they block LRMs? Nope, LRMs don't pose a huge threat to any fast moving light. Is it because they prevent radar ping at long range? Nope, Light mechs move too fast to be vulnerable at long range anyway. Is it because they block the use of SSRM, which are ridiculously unbalanced? Yeah, I'd say that's about right.

Problems with SSRM:

• Can be fired from any angle successfully. This is the largest issue, as it makes them dominant in Light Vs. Light combat, being able to reliably hit an enemy that's currently behind you with streaks removes much of the element of skill and artificially increases their effectiveness.

• Better than SRM + Artemis. At half the weight of Artemis not only do SSRM outperform, being much more accurate, but they also won't miss a moving target. Not so much a problem now as they're limited to SSRM2, but when Clan weapons show up for most mechs SRM, Artemis or not, simply won't be worth considering.

• Makes ECM more powerful than it should be. Not getting into any other balance problems that ECM may have, but the current state of streaks is inflated by their interaction with ECM. Any light mech without ECM is massively handicapped, not because they don't have the long range stealth, or the protection from LRMs, but because they'll be fighting a mech that can use streaks. Streaks make ECM unbalanced, rather than the other way around.

• Will be TOO effective against light mechs. Right now with network issues, the lack of collision/knockdown and ECM+SSRM combos SSRM is simply the best Light mech killer. Arguably as it is even a SSRM2 is too effective. A single SSRM6 would be utterly devastating, imagine a raven equipping the equivalent of 6xSSRM2 and I think you'll understand why this will be an issue.

TL;DR: Streaks are super effective against lights and better than SRM+Artemis of the same size against everything. This isn't super great now, but will be a mahooosive problem when we get clan weapons.









Proposed Solution:
SSRM have a minimum range of 80 metres and fly in a straight line for that period. Their turn rate would also be much reduced once they start tracking (i.e. not the 180 degree instant turn they're currently capable of). Like LRM's they only arm after a minimum distance, but unlike LRMs they don't begin to track immediately.

This solves all of the above issues.

Light Mechs:
Although still effective against lights it will now be unable to hit targets that are directly behind you, so will at least require you to be aiming in the general direction of an enemy. This means that a non-SSRM equipped mech will be able to counter an enemy using them by trying to remain behind them, or avoiding being in the range window. It will still be useful as an opening volley, if you have the speed/skill to keep your enemy in range, or for chasing an enemy that tries to disengage, but will no longer dominate at knife fighting range. It also means that a light mech can avoid instant destruction at the hands of a 3xSSRM6 Atlas D-DC by either keeping in close, moving between cover or flanking.

Artemis/SRM:
SSRM still have a significant advantage in accuracy, but now when you're equipping that SSRM6 you'll actually have to stop and think and ask yourself, 'is that advantage worth the minimum range?'. I'd say most people would say yes, but at least it's a question now.

ECM:
A balanced SSRM means that ECM isn't needed for light mechs. We might actually see Jenners and non ECM ravens on the battlefield again. I'd argue that at this point ECM could just increase lock on times for streaks rather than jam them completely and remain balanced.



TL;DR: Streaks are poorly balanced. Streaks will be super poorly balanced once we get clan weapons. Give them a minimum range and a turn rate to fix.


Credit to TungstenWall for the original idea.

Other ideas:

M4rtyr, on 14 January 2013 - 01:44 AM, said:

It's true that Streaks lock and thats how they are better then base SRMs, but being able to keep the lock by keeping the target in view. Make the lock more strick so they have to be near the crosshairs. That would make it more in keeping with the TT concept of needing to be able to hit to fire the streaks.

Chou Senwan, on 15 January 2013 - 09:50 PM, said:

When you pull the trigger on a streak SRM, if the server authenticates that you're within 270 meters and that your cursor is on the target, the missiles fly and turn unerringly to hit it. Basically it determines at the instant you fire whether you're aiming in the right place. If you are, you get a target lock and they all hit. If you aren't, you hear a bzzt, and they don't fire.

Sears, on 16 January 2013 - 02:55 AM, said:

I like the possible nerf that Paul wrote in the weapon balance thread about streaks. That they could lock on to CT, arms and legs randomly spreading out the damage. Would still be effective against lights albeit with more salvos needed. Plus it makes it more of a decision to take srms which can be aimed manually. So it would become a choice between guaranteed hit but damage spread or chance of a miss but more focused damage.

Karl Split, on 16 January 2013 - 06:26 AM, said:

SSRM turn rate was buffed in early beta, before that they couldnt hit lights for squat. Sadly they were over buffed, i think when tracking a light 1/2 the missiles should messup and miss if the target is going at a high transversal.

Bobzilla, on 16 January 2013 - 06:56 AM, said:

Take out the always hit, and just play with the speed that they travel and their turning speed so altho it will take skill they can be dodged.
Or allow them super turning and terran awareness with always hit, but slower 100kph or less, and after it travels 270m it explodes so it can be dodged or out run. Would help bring back AMS that i don't see anymore.
I'm not a fan of the min range idea.

Kargarok, on 16 January 2013 - 07:14 AM, said:

I think Streaks should do 1.0 dmg per missile. At least this should be a start point for testing. 1.1 or 1.2 might be acceptable as well. Especially when the Streaks start locking onto arms and legs instead of ALWAYS hitting the torso, like the devs have promised would eventually happen. This way when Clan tech eventually comes into the game, you will almost always get a guaranteed 2 or 4 or 6 dmg per missle slot but you will not be overpowered.

moneyBURNER, on 16 January 2013 - 10:17 AM, said:

As others have said, streaks should be fixed by:

- limiting their currently extreme maneuverability to allow a reasonable possibility of evasion
- spreading out the damage a bit more and/or reducing target lock retention

That should be enough to balance them with direct-fire weapons, especially when combined with better netcode.

Ashnod, on 16 January 2013 - 05:58 PM, said:

Easy fix for a streak would be to make it require a new lock for every volley (1 lock = 1 shot)

Edited by Mahws, 17 January 2013 - 12:19 AM.

[Mahws]

Shameless nighttime bump, should probably learn not to post in the middle of the Japanese day when no one from US/EU is on.

[XSerjo]

Agree. It'll be usefull for ECM-SSRM pilots too: new streaks will require some skills).

And Mahws, what do you mean by "minimum range of 80 metres".
No damadge inside this area or only "straight flight"?

[Daora Wing]

Sounds very nice: SSRMs would require at least some skills, ECM would no longer be that overpowered and we will see some Jenners and other non-ECM-Lights back on the battlefield what is one of the most important changes we need at the moment.
So to sum it up:
Best idea to balance SSRMs and ECM I've read so far, +1 for this

[focuspark]

The way lock-on has been done in MW:O is just terrible.

LRM and SSRM should not require lock-on to fire. LRMs should fire at which ever target is selected, no lock-on required. If you lose LOS or indirect LOS to the target, the missiles should just go wide. Allow ECM to reduce the number of LRM missiles that connect with the target, but not lock out LRM completely. SSRM should fire where you point your reticle and if one hits, make them all hit.

[Asmudius Heng]

Sounds reasonable.

Another thing to throw into the mix is that SSRMs have a huge DPS because in reality as long as you can hold a lock you can fire straight away. With SRMs you often need to jostle to a good position to get a decent shot.

Perhaps these changes could mean that you will need to reposition before firing which would be good.

[Mahws]

focuspark, on 13 January 2013 - 02:34 PM, said:

SSRM should fire where you point your reticle and if one hits, make them all hit.

How would that be handled? Would the missiles swing back around if one of them hits and the others go past?

XSerjo, on 13 January 2013 - 08:21 AM, said:

And Mahws, what do you mean by "minimum range of 80 metres".
No damadge inside this area or only "straight flight"?

Same as with the LRM's minimum range, they don't arm under 80 metres and just plonk harmlessly off whatever they hit. The exact distance would probably need some playtesting, but the general idea is to give them a real disadvantage against SRM to counterbalance all of the advantages they have (all hit, much lower spread, tracks moving target and as Asmudius pointed out, higher real DPS) and to make them less of a "hold left click to apply damage" weapon in Light V. Light knife fights.

[White Bear 84]

Bring back re-arm costs. There needs to be a downside to using streaks. Lasers and PPC have heat to contend, Gauss has fragility and ammo weight, LBX is just terrible, LRM's have ECM and ams, streaks have.....

????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

NB: I make this point for the valid reason - anyone that has come up against an LRM or SSRM boating stalker can get the point..

Edited by White Bear 84, 13 January 2013 - 06:38 PM.

[focuspark]

Mahws, on 13 January 2013 - 05:27 PM, said:

How would that be handled? Would the missiles swing back around if one of them hits and the others go past?


Same as with the LRM's minimum range, they don't arm under 80 metres and just plonk harmlessly off whatever they hit. The exact distance would probably need some playtesting, but the general idea is to give them a real disadvantage against SRM to counterbalance all of the advantages they have.

It would just work. Fire a swarm of SSRM, just like you do for SRM and if one connects, have them all connect. Don't worry about the art. This way they're slightly better than SRM but not game breakingly so. AND this is how LRMs work today, they do zero damage until they've travelled at least 180 meters.

[Mahws]

Don't worry about the art isn't very convincing, people won't be happy with magically vanishing SRM killing them when only one hit. Not sure what you mean by the LRM comment though? That's what I was saying...

White Bear 84, on 13 January 2013 - 06:37 PM, said:

Bring back re-arm costs. There needs to be a downside to using streaks. Lasers and PPC have heat to contend, Gauss has fragility and ammo weight, LBX is just terrible, LRM's have ECM and ams, streaks have.....

????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

NB: I make this point for the valid reason - anyone that has come up against an LRM or SSRM boating stalker can get the point..

I don't think that would work as a system of balance, it'd just bring up the issue of Pay2Win. Balancing a strong weapon by making it expensive to use just makes a bigger balance issue in that it puts it out of the cost range of non-paying customers. Making LRM/SSRM boats rarer won't make them any less powerful, it'd just make them more frustrating.

[M4rtyr]

Easy to balance SSRM... make SRM's do the damage they are supposed to do.

[Mahws]

Not sure a 20% damage nerf would do it to be honest. All that would achieve is one or two more SSRM2 volleys to kill a light and wouldn't stop the impending issue of a 3xSSRM6 mech destroying a light mech in a single salvo. Better to have six 2 damage missiles that hit the enemies torso and chase a moving target than six 2.5 damage missiles that miss half the time and spread damage.

[focuspark]

@Mahws

The art currently has no impact on which missile connect and which don't because the physics for the art are handled locally and the "to hit" is measured on the server which are up to a full second apart in time. So, since it's already "the art doesn't matter" how is my suggestion bad?

[M4rtyr]

Just realized the best way to handle streaks. Don't allow they to use the same lockon mechanic as LRMs.

It's true that Streaks lock and thats how they are better then base SRMs, but being able to keep the lock by keeping the target in view. Make the lock more strick so they have to be near the crosshairs. That would make it more in keeping with the TT concept of needing to be able to hit to fire the streaks.

But that being said, they only have that advantage for lights. And just changing the SRM damage back to its base (which should be done anyway) would play more then enough role and is much easier to impliment.

[Roadbuster]

Mahws, on 12 January 2013 - 08:22 PM, said:

Proposed Solution:
SSRM have a minimum range of 80 metres and fly in a straight line for that period. Their turn rate would also be much reduced once they start tracking (i.e. not the 180 degree instant turn they're currently capable of). Like LRM's they only arm after a minimum distance, but unlike LRMs they don't begin to track immediately.

Nothing to add to this.
I fully support the idea of a minimum range for SSRM.

Another bonus of this minimum range would be the longer flight time, allowing AMS to shoot some of the missiles down and therefore make AMS more valuable again.

[M4rtyr]

Roadbuster, on 14 January 2013 - 03:17 AM, said:

Nothing to add to this.
I fully support the idea of a minimum range for SSRM.

Another bonus of this minimum range would be the longer flight time, allowing AMS to shoot some of the missiles down and therefore make AMS more valuable again.

How do you justify a minimum range on a short range weapon? Makes for a small effective window. Bad idea if you ask me.

[Roadbuster]

M4rtyr, on 14 January 2013 - 03:30 AM, said:

How do you justify a minimum range on a short range weapon? Makes for a small effective window. Bad idea if you ask me.

That's easy. These are guided missiles like LRMs. Usually guided weapons fly a short range before the guidance system kicks in and the warhead is armed.

You could also ask why you don't blow up yourself if you fire SRMs at another mech at point blank range.

[Mahws]

M4rtyr, on 14 January 2013 - 03:30 AM, said:

How do you justify a minimum range on a short range weapon? Makes for a small effective window. Bad idea if you ask me.

Makes for a small effective window is the point. The SSRM are extremely effective, giving them a penalty makes them balanced. It means that if you get into a brawl your weapons aren't insta-win hold-left-click-to-damage weapons, they still require you to keep distance and positioning to be effective.

Try to look at it like this:
A Jenner 4xML Jenner is scouting on River City, all of a sudden he rounds the corner and there's an up-engined Raven with 2xSSRM2. Currently he only has one option, fight and most likely lose with his massive weaponry disadvantage, or try to run and most likely die. With min-range streaks he now has a real option, try to keep the fight at point blank range to negate his enemies advantage. He's still going to get hit as he closes to fight, and the enemy Raven is going to be doing his best to keep the fight at range where he has the advantage, but now the Jenner actually stands a good chance of coming out on top if he's more skilled.

Now think of the future, when we get clans. if it's an unfair fight with only 2SSRM, how would that Jenner be able to fight back if the Raven was packing two SSRM6? Unless the Jenner has a way of negating that advantage it can't come within 270 meters of the enemy without being instantly destroyed. Even if you nerfed the damage or made lock on time higher a 2xSSRM6 is still going to knock out most lights in one or two hits, it has to have some kind of disadvantage.

And that's before we even go into the situation of two Assault mechs going head to head and the one not packing SSRM6 realizing that he has no chance of winning because his SRM have no where near the effective damage of his enemies streaks. At TT values he'd be hitting your torso with 36 damage every volley for 9 tonnes + ammo. Even if Streaks did HALF the tabletop damage value you'd still be giving any mech that can equip three a 9 tonne 18 damage weapon that always hits the enemies torso. Without some kind of disadvantage the enemy can try to exploit it's a no contest on which is the better weapon to take.

[Mahws]

Logged in to try the new patch. The amount of 3Ls and 2Ds farming Spiders with streaks at the moment are a nice reminder of just how ridiculous SSRM are. The only reason ECM is compulsory on a light mech is because it removes them from play, make an actual effort to balance SSRM and ECM would no longer be the be all and end all of light mechs.

[DocBach]

ECM and the SSRM-2s are both broken and need to be fixed individually.