53 replies to this topic

[Joseph Mallan]

Serapth, on 25 January 2013 - 05:20 PM, said:

No, this is exactly what I mean.

See, you ( as you admit, I dont know how you play ) are being carried by better players on your team. Therefore your stats are from when you play in a team environment being supported by your teammates. Therefore when you PUG under ELO, your stats will show you as a more capable player than you actually are, so you will get match against PUGs of a higher calibre than you actually are.


I am just using as an example btw...




Full circle, but no they arent. Nothing about the matchmaker changes or ELO that has been announced factors in the advantages premades get.

It wont be as bad as it is now, as you wont be partnered with players vastly above or below your talent level, so this should keep absolute beginners together, etc... But there is nothing in the upcoming changes about balancing premades across each side.

I didn't say I was carried, I just said there Are better players than me, But I pull my weight, and fairly well.

[Chowda]

I PUG at least half the time because of my work schedules. Grouping with my Corps gives an advantage (everyone knows). The biggest negative to PUGs are the griefers. The best part of PUGs is it's more of a challenge.

[anonymous175]

[Bguk]

Livebait, on 25 January 2013 - 05:20 PM, said:

The REAL advantage to a pre-made 4 man drop, you have less of a chance getting stuck with an asshat team killer or griefer. That really is it.

Quoted the post that I liked. Thread was well on it's way to crapdom before this one.

Serapth, on 25 January 2013 - 05:46 PM, said:

No, I feel no need to take it down. You may notice the thread was quite civil until someone turned it toxic... hint, it wasnt me, it wasnt Grey and you liked his post.

Then again, you always like the one sides posts, then try to take moral high ground on the other side... the side that, unlike you, is currently getting screwed.

So no.

I like the posts that have common sense. The ones that show this who premade thing is being blown out of proportion before the next phase in even in. You forget that we agreed about the one pre on each side would be a decent idea. So keep stoking the flame with veiled attempts at insulting people who just want to have a good time together once in awhile. I'd like what's balanced for all. Won't be perfect. Let's give the next phase a try has what I've been saying all along. Yeah, I get frustrated at times and post crap posts. But this stuff is just silly now.

[Abivard]

Serapth, what is your excuse for continuing to pug? You say you are a longtime pug player... doesn't that mean the newb is your bread and butter and your biggest threat is a pre made?

Sounds like the wolf standing up for sheep's rights by banning sheep dogs for being mean to the sheep.

[Serapth]

Abivard, on 25 January 2013 - 06:00 PM, said:

Serapth, what is your excuse for continuing to pug? You say you are a longtime pug player... doesn't that mean the newb is your bread and butter and your biggest threat is a pre made?

Sounds like the wolf standing up for sheep's rights by banning sheep dogs for being mean to the sheep.

My personal reasons Ive given many times, as have dozens of other pugs.

First off, I found premade really really really dull, in some ways its worse than getting pugstomped, as pugging I still see a number of good matches in between. When the stars lined up and I could play with friends, it was win, win, win, win, win, win, win, win...

More than that, I play at all times of the day, when people I know cant. During the day, pugging is great fun, its only evenings that the premade problem becomes the strongest.
On top of that, I am primary caregiver of an autistic 5 year old. If my daughter needs me, I drop everything at the drop of a hat. That doesn't fit well with grouping. This is why I love MWO though, it can be played in 10 minute chunks, which fits my life incredible well.
I could of course join groups with complete strangers... but frankly, I dont want banal often racist/sexist and generally horrifically immature conversation that comes from voice chatting with complete strangers... I've had enough of that on Xbox live to last me a lifetime.
Finally, I could play late at night, but that would be unfair to the people sleeping.


Those are my reasons, tons of people have different ones. At the end of the day, none of us need to justify why we want to PUG instead of premade. All we are asking for is a fair and balanced game.

Calling me a wolf in sheeps clothing is daft, as ELO does address exactly this. If I was of the wolf mentality... I would be pug stomping, wouldn't I?

Edited by Serapth, 25 January 2013 - 06:09 PM.

[Serapth]

Bguk, on 25 January 2013 - 05:56 PM, said:

Quoted the post that I liked. Thread was well on it's way to crapdom before this one.



I like the posts that have common sense. The ones that show this who premade thing is being blown out of proportion before the next phase in even in. You forget that we agreed about the one pre on each side would be a decent idea. So keep stoking the flame with veiled attempts at insulting people who just want to have a good time together once in awhile. I'd like what's balanced for all. Won't be perfect. Let's give the next phase a try has what I've been saying all along. Yeah, I get frustrated at times and post crap posts. But this stuff is just silly now.

Again... look back through the history at when this thread went toxic.... I'll wait here.

I also dont think its a decent idea, I think its a manditory requirement for the success of this game and should be the highest priority item on their list now that netcode isn't so terrible... especially given how trivial it is. See the difference in our perspective.

And yes, I judge you by your like history, and it is very obvious you are about as far from impartial on this as anyone can get, so dont bother get sanctimonious on this. When you endorse the post of someone being a ****, you are being a **** in my eyes.


In some ways I respect the guy being outright about it, far less weasely.

Edited by Serapth, 25 January 2013 - 06:16 PM.

[MischiefSC]

So all I do is PUG. After my last match I'm at 112 wins/152 losses and have clawed my way back to 114kills/126deaths (0.90K/D) after some truly abortive attempts at making a Centurion build that worked for me (bottomed out at 0.42). I'm a long ways from a stellar player but I'm not horrible.

Avoid prime time and you'll rarely find premades. Every single match I play for at LEAST the last 200 I've started with 'Any premades who want to take the lead?' If nobody answers by the time we launch I offer a general suggestion and some take it, some don't.

If I play in primetime then about 1/4 of the games there's a premade on my team. If I play any other time it's about 1 in 6 or 1 in 8.

Even when there is a premade that doesn't guarantee a stomp. The only rare times that truly comes up is when it's an organized missileboat group or a lance of ECM lights. In the last 112 games I've run into 3, exactly 3, occurances of being on a group of pugs against 2 premades. Admittedly I've avoided primetime play but still.

Having a premade on your side doesn't guarantee victory. Having 3 or more people on your side either disconnect, afk or go rambo does however just about guarantee a defeat. I think it's very well put that playing in a premade changes your odds of having at least 3 other organized players on your side from probably 1 in 3 or 1 in 5 to being 1 in 1. This is going to effectively double or tripple your odds of having a victory over just pugging 100% of the time. It's human perception to remember bad experiences disproportionately to good ones. Pug-stomp games

The biggest contributor in 8-0 or 8-1 games is your side following a plan. Sometimes you'll follow a plan, premade or not, and get rolled. Some of the best victories I've had were playing with a pure pug team who just had their heads on straight.

The difference the ELO will make is less about balancing pugs/premades and more about balancing people of your skill level. Being on a solid pug team is amazing. I will say that man for man the very skilled pug players are like the first of an angry god - they're not counting on their own team, they're just really good at stuffing death down some other SOBs throat. The times that I've had 5 or more people like that on my team I can absolutely believe the other side thought they got rolled by 2x4 premades in voice-chat, calling targets and the like.

TL/DR;

I call out for premades every single game I play for the last 200+ games. Premades just are not that common, at most 1/2 the time in prime hours. Cheesy premades even less so. Being on a team full of people at your own approximate skill level will count for 10x more than balancing premades on each side. Having a team full of people who know how to avoid buik LRM fire or how to take down a light with ACs will change your game more than how many folks on the other side are using voice chat.

[Bguk]

Serapth, on 25 January 2013 - 06:14 PM, said:

Again... look back through the history at when this thread went toxic.... I'll wait here.

I also dont think its a decent idea, I think its a manditory requirement for the success of this game and should be the highest priority item on their list now that netcode isn't so terrible... especially given how trivial it is. See the difference in our perspective.

And yes, I judge you by your like history, and it is very obvious you are about as far from impartial on this as anyone can get, so dont bother get sanctimonious on this. When you endorse the post of someone being a ****, you are being a **** in my eyes.


In some ways I respect the guy being outright about it, far less weasely.

I see. Enjoy your life.

[Serapth]

MischiefSC, on 25 January 2013 - 06:18 PM, said:

Admittedly I've avoided primetime play but still.

This... this is absolutely true. You play off primetime, the game is a heck of a lot more fun. You hear this as a solution in threads all the time... want to have fun, avoid primetime.

Instead, I would rather the game was just fixed, so everyone could enjoy it all the time.

Bguk, on 25 January 2013 - 06:21 PM, said:

I see. Enjoy your life.

Ditto.

[Joseph Mallan]

Bguk, on 25 January 2013 - 05:42 PM, said:

Both sides have been doing it so take a step down please.

The original question was whether something was being done about balancing. It is. Your score will determine who you are pitted against. If you strictly premade and you "stomp", as they say, they should be matched against other "stompers". Just like "window lickers", as they say, will be matched with other "window lickers". Any system will eventually be gamed by some so it will not be perfect. Life is not perfect.

Bguk. There are few things that get me cross. But you sir have hit on one of them. I have friends with challenged children. Those 'Window Lickers' are a thousand time better people than anyone who would use their personal challenge as an insult. I have never met a one of those 'window lickers' who would stoop to insult another human being. Find a better insult, but don't be so low as to think those people are less than any of us.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 25 January 2013 - 06:23 PM.

[MischiefSC]

@Serapth;

The problem with premades though is largely skill-based. That's 4 people who are less likely to run off alone, AFK or disconnect. Having been really numerically attentive to it (how often premades on my side equate to a victory and how those victories are achieved) it really and truely is driven by individual competence more than intra-team communication - beyond a certain point. Skilled puggers work together. Unskilled ones run off and die.

Well, sometimes even skilled ones run off and die. Between my last post and this one I ended up seperated from my group and killed due to my own mistake of assuming people were going to stay with me and not chase their own 4 heavies after a Jenner into low town, but I digress.

Balancing you with people of a similar skill range, premade or pug, will go a long ways towards fixing it. There are not enough premades to always have 1 premade per side save a couple or 3 hours a day on weekdays. The rest of the time I'd say it's great if they're just weighted a tad heavy in skill matchups. You put avreage skilled 4xpremade + 4 average/low average pugs vs 8x skilled pugs and teamspeak is going to suddenly be less significant.

You watch. It's going to be like the sudden quiet shift in light mech tactics and forum complaints after the recent lagshield reduction. Most premades are going to suddenly find that they are not that good when they're playing against universally skilled teams - PUG or premade.

[Serapth]

MischiefSC, on 25 January 2013 - 06:31 PM, said:

@Serapth;

The problem with premades though is largely skill-based. That's 4 people who are less likely to run off alone, AFK or disconnect. Having been really numerically attentive to it (how often premades on my side equate to a victory and how those victories are achieved) it really and truely is driven by individual competence more than intra-team communication - beyond a certain point. Skilled puggers work together. Unskilled ones run off and die.

Well, sometimes even skilled ones run off and die. Between my last post and this one I ended up seperated from my group and killed due to my own mistake of assuming people were going to stay with me and not chase their own 4 heavies after a Jenner into low town, but I digress.

Balancing you with people of a similar skill range, premade or pug, will go a long ways towards fixing it. There are not enough premades to always have 1 premade per side save a couple or 3 hours a day on weekdays. The rest of the time I'd say it's great if they're just weighted a tad heavy in skill matchups. You put avreage skilled 4xpremade + 4 average/low average pugs vs 8x skilled pugs and teamspeak is going to suddenly be less significant.

You watch. It's going to be like the sudden quiet shift in light mech tactics and forum complaints after the recent lagshield reduction. Most premades are going to suddenly find that they are not that good when they're playing against universally skilled teams - PUG or premade.

Oh, I think ELO will go a long way towards making things better. RIght now, a PUG gets grouped with whatever, from trial mechs to TKers, while the premade at least know that 3 of their lancemates arent any of these things. ELO will get rid of this mismatch. It will be a big help.

However, it doesnt get rid of all the advantages, just one of the biggest ones.

If there arent a ton of premades in the queue, its a self solving problem. No premades to balanced against other premades, means no need to balance premades in the first place. Come evening though, when the premade population goes up, the matchmaker matching them should be no problem at all.

[Prophet of Entropy]

you cant claim voice and calling targets is why premades all do so well, for some this is the case i'll grant that.

in my experience over the last 3 months is that if i have 1 or even 2 good players with me there is a 95 % chance that were going to stomp the other side flat.

why is voice and target calling not the cause of our success? simple i did about 100 games with a guy who didnt use voice at all, just the 2 of us, our average combined damage was about 1600-2200 and combined we'd have 5-8 kills a match when we won. we only lost 1 in 9 or so games the games we won neither of us was likely to have died.

why premades stomp pugs so readily is alot of the better players have started playing together most of the time. if 4 players who are likely to be able to kill 2-3 other players play together it doesnt really matter if the other 4 just sit there and do nothing all game. 99% of my premade voice communication is "ha! you see that guy come apart?" or "man that guy couldnt aim for cr@p" or " i was thinking about running blah mech with blah blah" or " you see blah blah post of the forums?"

the elo system will help with this putting better players againt better players. but i imagine there will still be some stomping happening if people co-ordinate builds and actualy try to run planned tactics.

Edited by Prophet of Entropy, 25 January 2013 - 07:05 PM.