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Regarding Abusive Builds....


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#1 Hex Pallett

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 08:44 PM

Update: Extremely situational builds and current map design.


Yeah, you know what I'm talking about. Hexa-SRM6 Catapult A1, dual AC20 K2 - the builds that performs exceptionally well under very specific circumstances; the builds that you run with the thought of "BECAUSE I CAN" in mind; the builds that you swear under your breath when you encounter.

Isn't there something wrong with it?

Because when you have a build that can two-shot kill an Atlas in the face, and you see those loadouts appear every match or two, you probably should think about it.

(I'm not including things like supermassive LRM Stalkers or hexa-PPC Stalkers. ECM, heat cap and minimum range are all very severe drawbacks to sustainable damage output. The two Cat builds mentioned above, however, would always be effective as long as you have patience and maintain basic wolfpack tactic.)

I'm not blaming PGI for being "bad" or whatever - because that's not the fact, we're seeing them improving the game step by step - but when certain rules are exploited, we probably should change them.

Words.

UPDATE: Here's a video of Splatcat courtesy of Indoorsman. I think it explains a lot of things.

View PostIndoorsman, on 03 February 2013 - 09:15 AM, said:


Edited by Helmstif, 06 February 2013 - 09:53 PM.


#2 slayerkdm

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 09:22 PM

The Srm build is tough if you get hit by it, so is the AC20 build. But neither of them make me cringe too much. I cringe over getting LRMed to death without ever seeing the enemy. Those two Cat builds I get to see before they get to try and kill me. Sure they do, they are killers, but you can beat them. I like the Srm least, as I think it may be a touch OP. The AC20 build, well, while I havent piloted one, I know AC20's are not that easy to use effectively. Sure they hit like a truck, but its not like you just point in a general direction and say I win.

I dont pilot Cats, so I have no dog in the fight. Actually, I can of like them, as it is a challenge fighting them with my Dragon. Any of what I consider my good mechs can fight them and have a chance to win, my 4sp, 4p, Illya or my 1n all can fight them. That doesnt mean I would always win, or maybe even break even, but I have a good chance.

Im not sure any build in the game really bothers me at the moment. Though Im sure someone will find one that does.

#3 Indoorsman

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 10:33 PM

Playing an OP build, if it is in fact OP, is excellent feedback. I they see tons of people playing the same variant with the same exact load out more than other variants of ANY load out well that could be a sign to them that something is unbalanced. My feedback on the spider was buying one, playing a single round with it and then selling it. That's the best feedback I can think of to give them. Posting helps, but get out there and play an OP mech for awhile :)

#4 UnseenFury

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 10:53 PM

There is a counter to any build. Find it in your brain. If you are able to.

#5 nostra

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 11:35 PM

Technically good tactics or a skillful pilot can get around any opponents' uber-build BS like the Gaussapult or Streakcat (anyone else notice that they all seem to be on the Catapult?). Unfortunately the issue lies in player mentality vs. Battletech canon... You'd never meet a Dual AC/20 Catapult K2 in the Battletech universe, some 'mechs are usually given a set role to perform, and are rarely used outside of that role. Conversely, other 'mechs are meant for a balanced configuration to meet combat at all ranges. But you get a Stalker, for example, meant to be the latter type, as all the stock builds would show you, able to mount weapons with overlapping range profiles.....but then some jackhole on the internet trolls up a 6-PPC build "just because he can" aaaaaaand the game is temporarily ruined because it dominates the field in a way that it was never meant to do.

#6 Hex Pallett

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 11:56 PM

View PostParan01ac, on 01 February 2013 - 10:53 PM, said:

There is a counter to any build. Find it in your brain. If you are able to.


Thanks to your extremely constructive sarcasm, though I'd like to see you counter a 2-alpha kill enemy at point-blank range. I could duel an Atlas, with some effort, with my 7xSL HBK4P - hell, a skillful pilot could do that with a Jenner. Can I kill a hexa-SRM6 Cat with that? Short answer no, long answer F**K NO.

The only counter to these troll builds is a flock of ECM Raven. Unfortunately the matchmaking is mostly tonnage balanced.

#7 Indoorsman

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 11:59 PM

View Postnostra, on 01 February 2013 - 11:35 PM, said:

Technically good tactics or a skillful pilot can get around any opponents' uber-build BS like the Gaussapult or Streakcat (anyone else notice that they all seem to be on the Catapult?).


Technically no, "technically BETTER tactics or a MORE skillful pilot" is how that should read.

#8 Hex Pallett

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 12:07 AM

Oh and I forgot to mention, it's technically IMPOSSIBLE to get AROUND an Catapult. That thing has a head of an owl that turns to all sorts of creepy directions. Why the **** would they make a long-range support 'Mech turn like that?

#9 CECILOFS

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 01:35 AM

View PostHelmstif, on 01 February 2013 - 08:44 PM, said:

(I'm not including things like supermassive LRM Stalkers or hexa-PPC Stalkers. ECM, heat cap and minimum range are all very severe drawbacks to sustainable damage output.


Ok, well heat and maximum range affect the two builds you are complaining about, so why do the other mechs get a free pass? Why are you fine with "cheese" builds that use range but not the close-up ones? FYI the ranged builds have a huge advantage, i.e. RANGE.

Btw neither of those mechs can 2 shot an atlas...unless they literally get it in the cockpit (face)....which is something that is not unique to those 2 loadouts. Maybe if they can shoot it twice directly in the rear CT without the Atlas turning around? hmmm seems legit.

Edited by CECILOFS, 02 February 2013 - 01:42 AM.


#10 CECILOFS

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 01:40 AM

View PostHelmstif, on 01 February 2013 - 11:56 PM, said:

Thanks to your extremely constructive sarcasm, though I'd like to see you counter a 2-alpha kill enemy at point-blank range.


Its called tactics. As in: Don't let the point-blank range killer get into point-blank range.

As for getting behind the Catapult, that's what team mates are for. Not that you need to get behind it when you can just shoot it in the face. Or the massive, massive ears.

#11 apostateCourier

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 02:00 AM

As to the idea that SRM boats require no skill, they actually require some careful maneuvering. The problem with getting into knife-fight range is that you're extremely vulnerable there. Unless, of course, you're hunting PPC or LRM boats, in which case congratulations on your easy kill! Not to mention the tons and tons of extremely damaging ammunition you have to carry to sustain three to six SRM6 racks. We're talking anywhere from four to eight tons of I'm-dead-now ammunition.

Ambushes, dashing from cover to cover, and being VERY careful about positioning are all really important to SRM boats. If you're not paying enough attention, once you get into the brawl you'll find yourself cored through the back/losing your firepower/legged REAL quick. Centurions have it a little easier than the Catapults do, though, because their missiles are in the torso rather than the gigantic box-arms that are just begging to get shot off from 450-540m.

My point is that boats have their downsides, in this case it's their limited range, and having to be more careful in terms of routes and their level of situational awareness.

Edited by apostateCourier, 02 February 2013 - 02:02 AM.


#12 Indoorsman

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 02:03 AM

View PostCECILOFS, on 02 February 2013 - 01:40 AM, said:


Its called tactics. As in: Don't let the point-blank range killer get into point-blank range.

As for getting behind the Catapult, that's what team mates are for. Not that you need to get behind it when you can just shoot it in the face. Or the massive, massive ears.


But the OP catapult is using tactics too, his tactic is to get into point-blank range. As for team mates, he has them too. Saying you can out-tactic or out teamwork a lone mech is not really saying anything when that mech can do the same exact things as you. Being OP doesn't come at the cost of a team or tactics ;)

#13 Cyote13

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 02:07 AM

For those dual ac 20 builds...just take out their legs while staying at a distance. They have to pay for the weight somewhere, and the leg armor is usually it.


View PostHelmstif, on 01 February 2013 - 11:56 PM, said:


Thanks to your extremely constructive sarcasm, though I'd like to see you counter a 2-alpha kill enemy at point-blank range. I could duel an Atlas, with some effort, with my 7xSL HBK4P - hell, a skillful pilot could do that with a Jenner. Can I kill a hexa-SRM6 Cat with that? Short answer no, long answer F**K NO.

The only counter to these troll builds is a flock of ECM Raven. Unfortunately the matchmaking is mostly tonnage balanced.


so you are saying that your boat isn't as good as their boat....if you bring a couple derringers to a close in point blank fight, because that is all the weapons you have, against someone with a couple shotguns....what do you expect to happen?

Edited by Cyote13, 02 February 2013 - 02:35 AM.


#14 Stringburka

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 02:52 AM

The SRM cat seems to be best countered by sniping at it's ears. Loads of mechs carry UAC-5, LL or Gauss. Use the range to your advantage.

#15 DegeneratePervert

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 03:00 AM

The 6x SRM6 cat is pretty much the only blatantly unbalanced build that comes to mind in this game at the moment. The AC/20 cat is extremely slow, so just go around it. Gauss cat is a little better, but shoot it's torsos.

#16 Peter von Danzig

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 03:05 AM

View PostHelmstif, on 01 February 2013 - 08:44 PM, said:

Yeah, you know what I'm talking about. Hexa-SRM6 Catapult A1, dual AC20 K2 - the builds that performs exceptionally well under very specific circumstances; the builds that you run with the thought of "BECAUSE I CAN" in mind; the builds that you swear under your breath when you encounter.

Isn't there something wrong with it?

Because when you have a build that can two-shot kill an Atlas in the face, and you see those loadouts appear every match or two, you probably should think about it.

(I'm not including things like supermassive LRM Stalkers or hexa-PPC Stalkers. ECM, heat cap and minimum range are all very severe drawbacks to sustainable damage output. The two Cat builds mentioned above, however, would always be effective as long as you have patience and maintain basic wolfpack tactic.)

I'm not blaming PGI for being "bad" or whatever - because that's not the fact, we're seeing them improving the game step by step - but when certain rules are exploited, we probably should change them.

Words.


The double AC20 build has also its weaknesses. The Catapults have to come within a certain range to be dangerous. And yesterday I had some matches where those cats died even before coming into this range.

However, 2xAC20, 6xPPC or even 9XML builds are not something what I expect from MW Universe, if you understand what I mean. Though I am running an OP-Build myself (5xsrm6) - my shame.

#17 CECILOFS

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 03:05 AM

View PostIndoorsman, on 02 February 2013 - 02:03 AM, said:


But the OP catapult is using tactics too, his tactic is to get into point-blank range. As for team mates, he has them too. Saying you can out-tactic or out teamwork a lone mech is not really saying anything when that mech can do the same exact things as you. Being OP doesn't come at the cost of a team or tactics ;)


So then it comes down to who is the better team and who is the better pilot. If they can get themselves unharmed into your back arc without you noticing, they are doing something right.

Or they are paired with an ECM Atlas...and I will fully admit that ECM gives a massive advantage to mechs like this and think that it should be changed.

Anecdotally, I am an average pilot and I generally don't do very well with the SRM6 A1. Some games I can get 3 kills or so, but usually I get owned before getting into range, or surprise 1 person and then get horribly owned by their friends.I can sometimes get lucky and take out a light, but usually lights can just plink away with immunity till they take off my ears.

Seriously, just try it, you will see that there are massive drawbacks that balance it out, just like any mech or weapon:

- can't take jumpjets (not enough weight/slots)
- has a range of ~150m
- can only fit max of around 6t of ammo - enough for 16-17 shots
- attrocious heat efficiency
- XL engine
- exploding ammo
- 100% of weapons in the arms, which are massive targets
- dumbfire weapons with slow travel time = hard to hit fast/small targets

Edited by CECILOFS, 02 February 2013 - 03:12 AM.


#18 Irvine

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 03:07 AM

View PostHelmstif, on 02 February 2013 - 12:07 AM, said:

Oh and I forgot to mention, it's technically IMPOSSIBLE to get AROUND an Catapult. That thing has a head of an owl that turns to all sorts of creepy directions. Why the **** would they make a long-range support 'Mech turn like that?


Because there is 0(zero) degrees of side to side travel in the arms?

#19 BaronofBeanDip

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 03:25 AM

Shoot the pods. Make fun of him after.

#20 MasterBLB

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 03:26 AM

I have all Catapults (though I don't like 6xSRM6 build on A1,I'm using it as LRM boat with 4 streaks for self-defense) and I can assure you,each of them can be defeated.
It's true they have great torso twist,so it's extremely hard to go behind a Cat.But their arms are unable to move in horizontal direction,so it's possible for fast mechs to avoid a Cat's firezone.

Regarding SRM Cats,max 270 range and big "ears" are the weaknesses you should to exploit.Medium lasers are capable to reach targets far outside theirs optimal range,but SRMs aren't.So,the next time you'll encounter a SRM Cat don't fight it alone at close range.Instead,inform your mates about the threat and flee,meanwhile your mates should focus fire on the Cat's ear.Believe me,Cat with 3 SRM6 is not so fearsome.
But,this build is not overpowered,just dangerous if used under appropriate circumstances.But that can be said about any other build.





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