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So Why Do People Dislike The Clans?


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#1 Gammanoob

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 09:47 AM

So Why Do People Dislike The Clans?

Thanks to Wolf no. 983,597 for providing the impetus for this thread! I am hoping we can have an objective and bias free discussion of why exactly many people have come to dislike the clans.

Remember to avoid personal attacks and when/if possible provide proper citation of sources used.

Regards,
Gammanoob, Zulu, Pirate of the Inner Sphere and Liberator of Clan Tech.

View PostDamion Wolf, on 31 January 2013 - 09:32 PM, said:

I always wonder why people aruge with trolls.

This thread is about why people like the Clans. This thread is not about why people do not like the Clans. If you want to debate disliking the Clans or the strength and flaws of the Clans then I am sure you can easily go and find a thread to accomodate you. They do exist.

Edited by Gammanoob, 02 February 2013 - 09:49 AM.


#2 qultar

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 10:22 AM

There are 3 main anti clan camps i have seen

1: Old battletech players mad that clans wrecked there game
Be this from the new tech or from the min-max players

2: Players that dislike the lore of the Clans
Never mind if they are being a hypocrite about there side

3: Then there are the the ones that hate the Clans for attack
there faction FRR are a big part of this do to bad luck

Edited by qultar, 02 February 2013 - 10:23 AM.


#3 CG Oglethorpe Kerensky

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 12:10 PM

Why would someone dislike the clans, I can't imagine why. I try to use the clan culture in all aspects of my life.

Like a few days ago I asked this girl out and she said "no ur creepy" so I told her that I wanted a trial of refusal. [redacted] So we are going out now and I couldn't be happier.

I can't imagine why people would dislike the clans.

[/sarcasm]

Edited by miSs, 31 May 2013 - 03:41 PM.
violence.


#4 dal10

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 09:42 PM

i just hate how all the clan fanboys say that oh, we have tech, we are invincible. but a freaking 3000 to one (assuming roughly 2 billion clannies and 6 trillion IS with the numbers comeing from jade falcon having 116 million people and me balancing it out at 100 million since most clans are smaller and that i have seen the IS pop estimate thrown around numerous times) disadvantage is near insurmountable.

the clan military is at best in the tens of thousand ranges. you can't have a mech only force in the millions, it is just not feasible to maintain. and since the clans have limited numbers of infantry, due to them hating anything short of elementals, their military might is solely limited to high tech units, which all require manpower to maintain and produce.

so thousands of warriors followed by hundreds of thousands of support personnel then have to be transported something like 1500 light years (if i remember right) that is 50 jumps. at 1 week a piece that runs you nearly a year to get those troops from the cluster to the inner sphere, during this time they must be fed and kept in shape due to zero-g affecting their muscles and bones. on top of the this you are carrying unique munitions and parts (little to no possibility of salvaging enough material to sustain yourself, and if you take heavy losses you have to hope some nearby unit can cover you or you have to order those parts and supplies from a supply base a year away (which is why planets like Wayside V showed up, you would need closer depot worlds or things would get messy...)) then you hit your target, they aren't waiting for you due to the fact that you are attacking a non-border area. So the initial strikes succeed with overwhelming victories. however here and their you still get your nose bloodied by the smarter opponents. hopefully you just lost the machines, the warriors are much harder to replace (20 years to train a new one) even so for every unit you lose initially you will take out 5-6 enemy machines to potentially 10. this continues for several waves as redirecting the number of troops necessary to stop you takes time.

here is where my strategy varies from canon

instead of contesting the next wave i would seed my troops 2 waves ahead of the next assault. i would then have spec ops units form resistance cells on planets about to be occupied (not recruiting civilians til later, the units primary purpose is to force the invaders to sink resources into pacifying the population. i would have them set up large explosive devices into the primary spaceport, moment the dropships set down you light them off destroying the propulsion gear, which would take a while to rebuild, and if done right could also set off their hydrogen tanks tearing the whole ship asunder and killing everyone inside. however this plan leaves the warships, which is arguably the clans greatest asset, untouched. roughly 500 clan warships exist to comstars probably 20.(if done right you could probably kill 50 or so clan ships before those 20 went down) simplest way to stop them is a combination of diplomatic shuttles with nukes, tactical insertion ships with nukes, and dropships with nukes. pack 15-20 nukes into the missile tubes of a leopard, then claim to be a diplomat, get close, fire nukes. you may lose the dropship, but that warship is gone. do this simultaneously with hidden stealthships and other things (such as orbitting missiles (aka you have them in the jump point and you send a signal that lights off the drives), a group of meteors along the simplest path to the planet, and other methods, significant loss of warships and clan life can be done. 40-50 warships at least would be gone before the clans figure out what happened. at that point you just lay some dropships which are set up as the dropship version of lrm carriers and pack them with massive numbers of missile tubes (i would have these anyways, they can't hope to stop all the missiles, so it is actually a pretty effective tactic) and punch out a combination of nukes and normal missiles (obviously you can't have an ungodly large barrage of nukes as that would be bankrupting, so have a few dozen and have the rest be decoys, odds of the nuke getting hit are low, but possible, a direct hit probably wouldn't set it off as the it would disrupt the shaped charge (depends on the nuke type) used to start the reaction) which would wipe the warship off the map. before long, they will be unwilling to use warships as all (things are bloody expensive and a drain on manpower) depriving them of their greatest advantage.

will post more later, but basically with tactics, no amount of your beloved clan tech would save you. it all really comes down to how far the IS commander is willing to go to win.

#5 OfTheDark

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 09:53 PM

View PostCG Oglethorpe Kerensky, on 02 February 2013 - 12:10 PM, said:

Why would someone dislike the clans, I can't imagine why. I try to use the clan culture in all aspects of my life. Like a few days ago I asked this girl out and she said "no ur creepy" so I told her that I wanted a trial of refusal.[redacted]. So we are going out now and I couldn't be happier. I can't imagine why people would dislike the clans.


Of course...Much better is the I.S. way...

"Want to go on a date with me?"

"No"

"Okay" *Launches nukes at her house* "How about now?"

#6 Vanguard319

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 10:25 PM

Found this in the ruined forever page on tvtropes:

Quote

  • The Clan Invasion (despite it being planned by the original authors from the very beginning, and very clearly foreshadowed)
  • The "timejump" of the Twenty-Year Update (mostly in retrospect, and despite new material being produced for that time period)
  • The Fourth Succession War (though it was the lead-off storyline)
  • The rebranding of the game from "Battledroids" to "BattleTech" (despite that it only existed as the former for about six months, and the threat of legal action from George Lucas)
  • Most perplexing, some fans decry events that only occurred in the off-screen backstory, such as the destruction of Clan Mongoose or even the Amaris Civil War, even though the latter is the entire foundation of the universe.


I find it particularly amusing that ppl claim the clans ruined battletech, even though they were planned from the beginning. Oh yeah, did you know MW:O has an entry in the games section of this trope?

Edited by Vanguard319, 02 February 2013 - 10:30 PM.


#7 OfTheDark

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 11:12 PM

View PostRannos, on 02 February 2013 - 10:53 PM, said:

Nukes have been against Space Geneva Conventions for centuries.


Why yes...yes they have...

#8 Mr Mantis

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 11:25 PM

There is such a post apocalyptic feel about the inner sphere, there is something about fighting over the nothing that is left.
Then the clans come with their shiny tech and honor ruining everything.

Well I like the clans, mainly because the Kit Fox was my favorite mech for years (now the MWO flea :) ). i think most people like the clans, if not for the wrong reasons, and i can understand that no one likes pretentious people.

Dang clanners!

#9 Ashla Mason

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 12:03 AM

Give me some time and I'll have some answers for this one.

#10 IrrelevantFish

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 12:44 AM

As a gamer, I don't like the Clans because I think Clan tech will make MWO more about twitch and less about tactics. With two-crit DHS's, more powerful weapons, and no increase in armor maximums, mechs will end up moving, shooting, and dying a lot faster, leaving less time for deliberation.

(Having said that, I was also concerned about the pace-change brought on by the addition of upgrades, and my concerns turned out to be unwarranted.)

As a fan of the BT universe, I hate the Clans because I find it impossible to suspend my disbelief when it comes to Clan social structure. I only have a cursory knowledge of psychology and my Battletech lore is extremely rusty, but from what I remember, the Clan ruling class consists almost entirely of brave, honor-bound psychopaths (good luck finding even one of those IRL) reared in a manner almost guaranteed to give a child complex PTSD, who are also chest-pounding warmongers with a deep love of science. :)

(Having said that, I quite liked the addition of the Clans to the lore. I just wish their inner workings had been left a mystery and the history told solely from the perspective of the Inner Sphere. IMO, the more the Clans were explained, the sillier they got.)

#11 Ragor

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 02:42 AM

My general issues with the clans:
other thread


My issues gameplay wise:
Me is a teamplayer.
Following the lore, no clan mech could be allowed to join a premade team, clan mechs must be forced to play PUG only.

Why?
Clanners look for the 'honorable' one on one combat.
Helping a teammate or even focus fire is dishonorable.
Following the lore a 'clan player' should get not reward and XP if he dared to play team orientated.

That is the strengths of the IS:
Ok, our actual gear is obsolete, our individual pilot skills are no on clan level.
But... we work together. We help each other on the battlefield.
... and if that MadCat gets too close to me I gonna hammer my barrel into his cockpit.
Oh, poor clanner, melee is dishonrable as well? Who cares, you are dead now and me is alive.
That is what counts.
And not these premature lies about honour and glory which are helpful to condition a teenager, to make him think killing others is anything good. Or that he is superior because he is part of the killer caste in his society.

As IS our behaviour is not much better than the clans - with one huge exception:
We don't believe that what we are doing is is good. We know that it is bad. And we don't like it. But someone has to do it at some point.
And when I am that someone, ok, my duty then.
But still nothing I am proud one or gives me the feel being superior.
More the opposite.

We know we are tools.
But we have respect.

This is was the Clans lack the most:
Repect regarding others.
Lifestyle, attitude, freedom - meaningless words for a clanner of the killer caste.



Sidenote:
Me is really curious how the 'MWO clanners' will act on the battlefield.
There'll be lots of chatting pointing out how superior they are - but will they follow their own rules they claim for themselves?
I doubt it. They will grab the Clan gear and then using IS tactics & doctrins.
They will add more ammo to their mechs (clan mechs are build for ONE duel -> no need for spare ammo), they will focus fire, they will use all the so dishonorable stuff. They will grab the most efficient from both cultures - and this makes me wanna puke about the individual clan player with a loud voice in the forums.

Bigotery ftw.

Edited by Ragor, 03 February 2013 - 02:42 AM.


#12 Stormwolf

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 03:32 AM

View PostRagor, on 03 February 2013 - 02:42 AM, said:

My general issues with the clans:
other thread


The same can be said for any of the Inner Sphere houses, why don't you hate them?


Quote

My issues gameplay wise:


Me is a teamplayer.
Following the lore, no clan mech could be allowed to join a premade team, clan mechs must be forced to play PUG only.

Why?
Clanners look for the 'honorable' one on one combat.
Helping a teammate or even focus fire is dishonorable.
Following the lore a 'clan player' should get not reward and XP if he dared to play team orientated.


Posted Image

Read a book with the Clans, any book about them would help you.

Quote

That is the strengths of the IS:


Ok, our actual gear is obsolete, our individual pilot skills are no on clan level.
But... we work together. We help each other on the battlefield.
... and if that MadCat gets too close to me I gonna hammer my barrel into his cockpit.
Oh, poor clanner, melee is dishonrable as well? Who cares, you are dead now and me is alive.
That is what counts.


Contrary to what people generally believe, melee is not dishonorable. The Clans merely find it distasteful.

The Thor marched forward like a butcher at a slaughterhouse. It raised the PPC that made up its right forearm for a blow that would crush the Hatchetman, but Kai sidestepped the attack. He brought the hatchet up into the Thor's right armpit. For. a half-second, Kai thought the resulting shower of sparks merely the reflection of those filling the rear of the cockpit, but armor raining down showed how much damage he had truly done. Son of a *****, this thing really works.

Instantly, a hollow voice reminded him of how inappropriate self-confidence had doomed him in the Academy's La Manchia scenario. Behind him, Deirdre shouted "Clear!" and a wave of heat turned the closed cockpit into a blast furnace. His right hand slammed down on the blue button, then he crossed his fingers and prayed.

The Thor had raised both its arms and clapped them together to crush the Hatchetman's head between them like some bloated mosquito. Argent fire encircled the 'Mech's neck before the Thor's heavy limbs could converge, then the whole cockpit assembly popped upward like a springloaded piece from a child's toy. Secondary rockets ignited, their golden spear of flame impaling the Thor's squat head, and shot the Hatchetman's head halfway to the shoulders of the Great Gash.

Quote

And not these premature lies about honour and glory which are helpful to condition a teenager, to make him think killing others is anything good. Or that he is superior because he is part of the killer caste in his society.


How is this generally better then let's say the Draconis Combine?

Quote

As IS our behaviour is not much better than the clans - with one huge exception:


We don't believe that what we are doing is is good. We know that it is bad. And we don't like it. But someone has to do it at some point.
And when I am that someone, ok, my duty then.
But still nothing I am proud one or gives me the feel being superior.
More the opposite.

We know we are tools.
But we have respect.

This is was the Clans lack the most:
Repect regarding others.
Lifestyle, attitude, freedom - meaningless words for a clanner of the killer caste.


You look at the Inner Sphere through rose-coloured glasses my friend.
There are no good or bad guys in Battletech, most factions are shades of gray.

The closest we have to Bad guys are probably the Word of Blake.

Quote



Sidenote:
Me is really curious how the 'MWO clanners' will act on the battlefield.
There'll be lots of chatting pointing out how superior they are - but will they follow their own rules they claim for themselves?
I doubt it. They will grab the Clan gear and then using IS tactics & doctrins.
They will add more ammo to their mechs (clan mechs are build for ONE duel -> no need for spare ammo), they will focus fire, they will use all the so dishonorable stuff. They will grab the most efficient from both cultures - and this makes me wanna puke about the individual clan player with a loud voice in the forums.

Bigotery ftw.


:)

#13 Gammanoob

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 03:44 AM

View PostAshla Mason, on 03 February 2013 - 12:03 AM, said:

Give me some time and I'll have some answers for this one.


Great, I look forward to seeing some good and objective discussion in this thread.

----------------------

View PostStormwolf, on 03 February 2013 - 03:32 AM, said:

The same can be said for any of the Inner Sphere houses, why don't you hate them?


I know it's not really directed at me but personally I dislike both the IS and the Clans, however, before the IS can be reformed and improved it is necessary to stop the warmongering of the clans, which when they arrive presents a greater threat to the average civilian.

Granted the WoB becomes the greater foe later in the canon and then it's back to Great Houses being the worse evil because the Clans are no longer a major threat post Jihad.

Of course as a pirate and self professed lover of Freedom™, I tend to find many enemies in BT lore.

Edited by Gammanoob, 03 February 2013 - 03:50 AM.


#14 Ragor

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 03:47 AM

View PostStormwolf, on 03 February 2013 - 03:32 AM, said:

(stuff)




To make it short: 3050.




Sidenote:
And being a clan-fanboy from being 8 - 20/21 (now 33) I maybe read too many of the source books and novels.
What was really harsh for me was when I understood, that the all stuff (sourcebooks & TROs, novels, no matter if for IS or for Clan) are always written biased, favouring the displayed faction. But with getting older some people tend to read between the lines and some even get the ability to combine informations from various sides to form a new picture.

The 'bad' thing about the clans is just the warrior caste being the superior caste. Especially the Crusader clans are a moral issue for me.

The civil society of the clans still gets my total approval.


Edit:
This was my 'short answer', the sidenote just to explain myself.
If you are looking for a well founded discussion feel free to hop on TS. :)

Edited by Ragor, 03 February 2013 - 03:50 AM.


#15 Stormwolf

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 03:52 AM

View PostGammanoob, on 03 February 2013 - 03:44 AM, said:

I know it's not really directed at me but personally I dislike both the IS and the Clans, however, before the IS can be reformed and improved it is necessary to stop the warmongering of the clans, which when they arrive presents a greater threat to the average civilian.


The Clans are actually less of a threat to the civilians since they fight away from civilian targets. The entire aspect of Clan warfare revolves around keeping them alive so they may serve the Clan that conquered them.

The Inner Sphere is far less forgiving, they have been known to massacre entire populations. Guys like Hanse Davion are the worst of the lot, he gleefully announced that he'd invade the Capellan Confederation at his wedding. Quite a number of people had to die or get crippled for life for his wedding present.

--edit


View PostRagor, on 03 February 2013 - 03:47 AM, said:


To make it short: 3050.

Sidenote:
And being a clan-fanboy from being 8 - 20/21 (now 33) I maybe read too many of the source books and novels.
What was really harsh for me was when I understood, that the all stuff (sourcebooks & TROs, novels, no matter if for IS or for Clan) are always written biased, favouring the displayed faction. But with getting older some people tend to read between the lines and some even get the ability to combine informations from various sides to form a new picture.


Most books are written from the Comstar POV, you can't really trust them when it comes to handing out information.

Quote

The 'bad' thing about the clans is just the warrior caste being the superior caste. Especially the Crusader clans are a moral issue for me.



The civil society of the clans still gets my total approval.


The feudal societies of the Inner Sphere have people who are born into positions of power. They view themselves as a better type of breeding. The Clans on the other hand test people the second are born to see how they can serve the Clans.

Trust me, in the BT universe it pays to have the biggest badass for a leader.

Quote

Edit:


This was my 'short answer', the sidenote just to explain myself.
If you are looking for a well founded discussion feel free to hop on TS. :)


TS isn't going to help since I need to buy a new mic. My cheap bargain bin mic surprisingly died on me.

Edited by Stormwolf, 03 February 2013 - 04:00 AM.


#16 Gammanoob

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 04:02 AM

In theory the Clans are not a threat to civilians, however, they too have been known to act malisouly to civilians both those of IS and their own. Of course as you aptly point out the IS are known to do the same.

However, the Clans Invasions create a virtually faction wide war, which is still going to cause more casualties than the usual skirmish between houses. Major wars are after all not the norm, since eventually the Houses must spend some decades recovering their losses.

Finally, the scariest part of the clans is how they view any and all dissenters, certainly I cannot in good faith accept something akin to Soviet Russia invading my home and then claiming they are bringing me a better life.

The way I look at it, ideally for the IS the following would(and sometimes did occur):

1. Clans are defeat and reduced to minor players
2. WoB are defeated and Comstar loses influence
3. Great Houses lose power and are either wiped out or reduced in scope

Hopefully, they would be replaced by more reasonable governments and there would be less "Superpowers" willing or able to engage in lengthy and needless warfare.

Edited by Gammanoob, 03 February 2013 - 04:12 AM.


#17 Ragor

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 04:17 AM

View PostStormwolf, on 03 February 2013 - 03:52 AM, said:

(stuff)



Erm... I don't break the clans down their battle behaviour. ("The Clans are actually less of a threat to the civilians since they fight away from civilian targets.")

I judge them by their behaviour in 'peaceful times'.
And by their reasons why they end 'peaceful times'.

And regarding IS:
Yes, the IS has the burden of a monarchy system.
If you intend to claim more power:
Ok, nice for people born 'right', not nice for people born 'wrong'.

But what is more important for me are the masses of 'normal' people.
Which in the IS can live their life as they want. Which can choose to change their path of life on their own, on the fly.

Huge problem:
The majority of the source books and the novels are written from the military background.
They are not focusses on the masses of ordinary people.
This counts for clan and IS background info.

You really have to dig out the few sentences from here and there to try to from a complete picture which is not just displaying 2.68% of the total.

And in the end we all add the stuff which is missing in our favor. :)
-> Clan sucks. ^^

And pointing out the Draconis Combine as a bad example of the IS might not be the cleverest choice as a 'Clanner' since the DC is the closest to the Clans regarding the society & theory.

#18 Stormwolf

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 04:36 AM

View PostRagor, on 03 February 2013 - 04:17 AM, said:



Erm... I don't break the clans down their battle behaviour. ("The Clans are actually less of a threat to the civilians since they fight away from civilian targets.")

I judge them by their behaviour in 'peaceful times'.
And by their reasons why they end 'peaceful times'.

And regarding IS:
Yes, the IS has the burden of a monarchy system.
If you intend to claim more power:
Ok, nice for people born 'right', not nice for people born 'wrong'.

But what is more important for me are the masses of 'normal' people.
Which in the IS can live their life as they want. Which can choose to change their path of life on their own, on the fly.


I somehow doubt that farmer Steve living on a backwater planet could get a career change or send his kids to college. Sure, it's possible on the more developed worlds like Tamar, but generally those people can't live a life they want.

Quote



Huge problem:
The majority of the source books and the novels are written from the military background.
They are not focusses on the masses of ordinary people.
This counts for clan and IS background info.

You really have to dig out the few sentences from here and there to try to from a complete picture which is not just displaying 2.68% of the total.


Most of that can be seen in the novels, and it isn't pretty.

Quote

And in the end we all add the stuff which is missing in our favor. :)


-> Clan sucks. ^^

And pointing out the Draconis Combine as a bad example of the IS might not be the cleverest choice as a 'Clanner' since the DC is the closest to the Clans regarding the society & theory.


You can swap the Draconis Combine around with any other faction, the difference here is that the DC isn't pretending to be anything else then how they are depicted. The Free World League for instance also doesn't think anything of slaughtering a entire population like they did on Helm (as seen in The Price of Glory).

#19 Ragor

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 04:42 AM

View PostStormwolf, on 03 February 2013 - 04:36 AM, said:

(...)


Why not keep it simple?
My stance is my stance, yours is yours. :)

I'd prefer to live my life in the IS, you would be happy to be among the Clan sphere.

In the end we both could come together and drink a couple of beers together - but for sure I won't pay your bill in the end. :lol:

#20 Stormwolf

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 04:50 AM

View PostRagor, on 03 February 2013 - 04:42 AM, said:


Why not keep it simple?
My stance is my stance, yours is yours. :)

I'd prefer to live my life in the IS, you would be happy to be among the Clan sphere.

In the end we both could come together and drink a couple of beers together - but for sure I won't pay your bill in the end. :lol:


Don't get me wrong here, I didn't mean to attack your opion or anything.

My entire view here is that the Inner Sphere can be a pretty horrible place to live, the Clans to me are pretty much the lesser evil here (except for the Smoke Jaguars that is).

I think that it was best described here:

http://tvtropes.org/...Main.Battletech
http://tvtropes.org/...d/TabletopGames
Just search for Crapsack World and Battletech

Edited by Stormwolf, 03 February 2013 - 04:52 AM.






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