225 replies to this topic

[Soulscour]

Streaks are still overpowered. ECM allows one team to use streaks while disallowing the other team. That is a unfair advantage.

[Vlad Ward]

MischiefSC, on 04 February 2013 - 12:34 PM, said:

I get the concept that you're trying to put forward, but here's the thing.

ECM is 1.5 tons. It blocks all information gathering, missile and streak locks. It disrupts all enemy locking and targeting information. Not having it on your team puts you at a huge disadvantage, having 2 or more of them is pretty telling especially in competitive play. How competitive is a team that doesn't use LRMs? Can still be very competitive. How about a team that has no ECM? Not competitive.

It's imbalanced. Clown-shoes style ridiculously imbalanced. You can attempt to justify this in a metagame fashion about how it's not that bad if you're playing on an organized team for competitive play but that's a tiny percentage of the games players. Are you saying that everyone else should just quit?

I suppose I should point out at this point that I regularly drop with 0, sometimes 1 ECM in the 8v8 queue.

You've summarized the effects of ECM without adding the necessary qualifiers that tell you how to counter it.

ECM stifles information gathering at long range, sure, but long range direct fire Mechs should be aiming for center of mass anyways so why do they need to know what sort of weapons the enemy is carrying?

ECM breaks missile locks when you're either <180m or >200m with no spotter/TAG. If you're <180m, your LRMs aren't doing much good anyways. If you're >200m with no spotter/TAG, we go right back to teamwork enabling OP LRM play.

ECM screws with Streaks. Well, that's good. People aren't supposed to rely on streaks anyways. That's what the Devs have been pushing at for a long time. "Streaks are a backup, secondary weapon type and shouldn't be relied on". Working as intended.

ECM may only be 1.5 tons, but it's only mountable on generally substandard Mechs. The AS7-D-DC is absolutely not the pinnacle of Assault Mech technology. Likewise, the RVN-3L, COM-2D, SDR-5D, and CDA-3M are nowhere near as objectively powerful as the JR7-D.

This is what you "give up" to mount ECM. You're forced to use average (or plain bad, looking at COM-2D and SDR-5D) Chassis.

[Orzorn]

Vlad Ward, on 04 February 2013 - 12:26 PM, said:

This doesn't mean that "only bad players use ECM". In competitive play, ECM is part of a complex and interesting balance mechanism involving LRM, TAG, SSRMs, AMS, and ECM. Do you risk taking LRMs without a TAG scout? Do you risk leaving AMS off your builds without ECM? Is it worth dropping your total tonnage to bring TAG/ECCM scouts? Do you risk taking AS7-D-DCs and losing out on the punch/hitboxes of the STK series?

These are all important questions that make the game more interesting.

I see it as very one dimensional. LRMs and TAG or nothing. No LRMs by themselves. No LRMs on Dragons. No LRMs with Catapult C1s. No SSRMs on a mech without ECM. It seems too cut and dry to me to be very interesting.

Not that the old metagame of "They probably have LRMs, so lets hide behind this hill until we gauss snipe enough of them to make a rush" was necessarily any better.

Quote

"Streaks are a backup, secondary weapon type and shouldn't be relied on". Working as intended.

But they still are being relied on. Streaks absolutely dominate the light game right now, and if you don't have ECM, you're out of luck. If streaks were powerful before, they're still powerful now, but limited to ECM mechs.
SSRMs are only a medium laser worth of damage, but they're consistent, and they don't miss unlike a laser. Having a Raven latch on to you, especially if you're a medium mech or even in my Dragon, can be devastating. Just constantly bam bam bam of those SSRMs, especially on your backside. Your speed can't avoid them. The pilot can not miss, no matter how bad he is, and you can't avoid them, no matter how fast you are. The lock-box for SSRMs is almost as large as your screen.

Edited by Orzorn, 04 February 2013 - 01:01 PM.

[Pihb]

This poll is horribly skewed. After the net code fix, ecm is nothing more than an annoyance. If you can't hit a atlas ddc from 700m away you need to work on your marksmanship. They are literally huge walking bulls eyes.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

The thing that annoys me, is that there are still games where I drop, and my team has no ECM. Which is fine and dandy, whatever.

Then we reach whatever point it is where we engage, and the other team seems to have one ECM, but also a metric fudge-ton of LRM's.

Then, all of a sudden my team is dismantled by the rain.

Because LRM's are still broke as hell when ECM is not present. And especially if one team has ECM AND LRM's.

Same goes for groups of Streak Cats. If I drop into a game with no ECM for either team, but they have 4 Streak Cats, it freaking blows.

If we're not going to balance ECM, and just hope less and less people use it, can we at least take a look at Streaks and LRM's?

Edited by Nicholas Carlyle, 04 February 2013 - 12:54 PM.

[Kyone Akashi]

Vlad Ward, on 04 February 2013 - 12:45 PM, said:

ECM screws with Streaks. Well, that's good. People aren't supposed to rely on streaks anyways. That's what the Devs have been pushing at for a long time. "Streaks are a backup, secondary weapon type and shouldn't be relied on". Working as intended.

Well, arguably it is not working as intended if the most prevalent users of ECM still rely on Streaks - and this very weapon is what helps them come out on top in most engagements against other Lights.

ECM did not just reduce Streak usage, it monopolized it.

Vlad Ward, on 04 February 2013 - 12:45 PM, said:

Likewise, the RVN-3L, COM-2D, SDR-5D, and CDA-3M are nowhere near as objectively powerful as the JR7-D.

Unless you fight one.

I suppose it depends on what you attack. I definitively agree that the Jenner is more powerful against heavier 'Mechs, who do not suffer as much from those autohit Streak-volleys thanks to their heavier armor.

[Athena Pryde]

My big issues with PGI's Wonder ECM is for 1.5 tons it really is a Angel ECM + Null Signature System + Stealth Armor. None of which were around in 3050 and all that all took up significantly more tonnage and cost more.

That being said the most annoying thing about ECM is it nerfs your sensors totally so you don't know where your team mates are or the enemies are with out panning around and looking which isn't the easiest with limited torso twisting and inability to turn on a dime like in other shooters. It is very easy to over extend or run into the enemies whole team with the ECM nerfing your sensors.

Guardian ECM really should do what it did in table top and other games and not be this super wonder ecm.

As far as missles, they should require a relock before each salvo. Slows down the rain a bit.

Anti missle system really should be more effective then it is. It should really shoot down more missles then it does rendering streak 2s fairly ineffective unless someone has several and they are fired point blank.

Edited by Athena Pryde, 04 February 2013 - 01:00 PM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Yeah the relative value between non-weapon systems is WAY freaking out of whack right now.

I don't understand how people who think ECM is balanced can disagree with that.

[Vlad Ward]

Kyone Akashi, on 04 February 2013 - 12:54 PM, said:

Well, arguably it is not working as intended if the most prevalent users of ECM still rely on Streaks - and this very weapon is what helps them come out on top in most engagements against other Lights.

ECM did not just reduce Streak usage, it monopolized it.

Unless you fight one.

I suppose it depends on what you attack. I definitively agree that the Jenner is more powerful against heavier 'Mechs, who do not suffer as much from those autohit Streak-volleys thanks to their heavier armor.

Most of these issues were solved when Movement code was updated. A JR7-D pilot should not have issues hitting Ravens with its dual SRM4s.

On that note, though, Lights are the single most difficult weight class to pilot in MWO. Netcode made them easy for a while, but that was never the case in any of the "Working" builds of the game. It is not supposed to be easy to play them well, and it used to be the case in CB that the absolute best pilots on any given team were always given the Light role.

[Coralld]

MischiefSC, on 04 February 2013 - 11:57 AM, said:

ECM works like it does in tabletop.

Really? Because Sarna says other wise.
http://www.sarna.net...rdian_ECM_Suite

Yes ECM jams lock on weapons (LRMs and SSRMs) as well as run interference to spotters, however, ECM DOES NOT hide you from radar or messes with peoples IFF systems, nor does it counter TAG, at any range. So, as long as a mech has TAG and is painting the ECM mech they can still hit the ECM mech with their SSRMs. The only way ECM hides you from radar and protects you from TAG (and Thermal) is if you also have Stealth armor, which I have mentioned in this thread before, and also doesn't show up until 3063.

Oh, also, only mechs with BAP can pick up the jamming signal from ECM mechs, regular radar doesn't.

[Ashnod]

Coralld, on 04 February 2013 - 01:00 PM, said:

Really? Because Sarna says other wise.
http://www.sarna.net...rdian_ECM_Suite

Yes ECM jams lock on weapons (LRMs and SSRMs) as well as run interference to spotters, however, ECM DOES NOT hide you from radar or messes with peoples IFF systems, nor does it counter TAG, at any range. So, as long as a mech has TAG and is painting the ECM mech they can still hit the ECM mech with their SSRMs. The only way ECM hides you from radar and protects you from TAG (and Thermal) is if you also have Stealth armor, which I have mentioned in this thread before, and also doesn't show up until 3063.

Oh, also, only mechs with BAP can pick up the jamming signal from ECM mechs, regular radar doesn't.

In Lore (books etc) ECM can hide a mech from radar as well as screw with other systems, but only angel ECM screws with lock on's... Guardian doesn't affect Streaks or LRM's (granted in lore LRM's are unguided unless running semi guided munitions)

It can also create ghost images of mech's on opposing radar according to TT rules.

Edited by Ashnod, 04 February 2013 - 01:04 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Vlad Ward, on 04 February 2013 - 12:45 PM, said:

I suppose I should point out at this point that I regularly drop with 0, sometimes 1 ECM in the 8v8 queue.

You've summarized the effects of ECM without adding the necessary qualifiers that tell you how to counter it.

ECM stifles information gathering at long range, sure, but long range direct fire Mechs should be aiming for center of mass anyways so why do they need to know what sort of weapons the enemy is carrying?

ECM breaks missile locks when you're either <180m or >200m with no spotter/TAG. If you're <180m, your LRMs aren't doing much good anyways. If you're >200m with no spotter/TAG, we go right back to teamwork enabling OP LRM play.

ECM screws with Streaks. Well, that's good. People aren't supposed to rely on streaks anyways. That's what the Devs have been pushing at for a long time. "Streaks are a backup, secondary weapon type and shouldn't be relied on". Working as intended.

ECM may only be 1.5 tons, but it's only mountable on generally substandard Mechs. The AS7-D-DC is absolutely not the pinnacle of Assault Mech technology. Likewise, the RVN-3L, COM-2D, SDR-5D, and CDA-3M are nowhere near as objectively powerful as the JR7-D.

This is what you "give up" to mount ECM. You're forced to use average (or plain bad, looking at COM-2D and SDR-5D) Chassis.

Also there's going to be a tweak to PPCs that will cause a brief disruption on ECM activity. There will probably be other small tweaks to other things to create holes in ECM performance that well organized teams and experienced players will take advantage of.

I absolutely applaud you and your team for being able to handle top end competitive matches without any ECM. As I don't drop in 8v8 with a team I'll take your word for it, though I'd say it conflicts with what 'everyone else' is saying.

So ECM has to be balanced by putting it only on inferior mechs because.... otherwise almost everyone else would carry it all the time.

Because it's overpowered.

So you have through experience and research learned the specific gaps in ECM performance that experienced individuals can take advantage of to limit the otherwise powerful limitations of ECM.

It's not that I don't understand what you're arguing, Vlad. They are in a narrow perspective very accurate. I could do the same thing with, say, Clan ERPPCs. Yes, 15 points but a lot of heat. Only let them be mounted on the left arm of assault mechs and give them a slightly different blue shade of trail. This would mean that experienced players with a keen eye would identify firing locations of mechs with clan ERPPCs and shoot their left arms off.

None of which changes that fact that these tricks to get around it are just that - tricks to get around a badly imbalanced piece of equipment when compared to all other IS weapons.

Adding complexity is a poor way to balance something. Tabletop games are balanced the way they are for very specific reasons; you want functionality and depth balanced with playability. Players do not just pop fully formed from the forehead of Zeus. Creating a learning curve this steep is bad for the game. Especially F2P games who function effectively by getting people invested for free and then promoting them to spend money to speed up their development. Buying MC isn't going to help any new player deal with a growing learning curve and the work-arounds for imbalanced game items.

Here's a better idea - make ECM block artemis, streak locks, BAP, NARC and TAG, available on any mech that wants to mount it. Have LRMs do 1 point per shot (faster travel time) with about a 70% accuracy. SRMs do 2 points each but with a relatively tight spread. Easy, intuitive, something new players can get into and experienced players can adjust to tactically. It would promote a broader spread of weapons instead of boating missiles.

However, your point is that the game is balanced towards experienced players focused on cooperative play. Is your position that everyone else need not apply so to speak? You need to either be playing with an eye towards joining a team for competitive play or you need to understand that you're going to get stomped, matchmaker or otherwise? That really, you should join a team or just not play?

[Orzorn]

Vlad Ward, on 04 February 2013 - 12:59 PM, said:

On that note, though, Lights are the single most difficult weight class to pilot in MWO. Netcode made them easy for a while, but that was never the case in any of the "Working" builds of the game. It is not supposed to be easy to play them well, and it used to be the case in CB that the absolute best pilots on any given team were always given the Light role.

When collisions return, we'll see another grand culling of awful light pilots out of the chassis. Bad light pilots did not survive more than a few seconds back in closed beta. Good light pilots would deal more damage than most people on their team.

[Coralld]

Ashnod, on 04 February 2013 - 01:02 PM, said:

In Lore (books etc) ECM can hide a mech from radar as well as screw with other systems, but only angel ECM screws with lock on's... Guardian doesn't affect Streaks or LRM's (granted in lore LRM's are unguided unless running semi guided munitions)

It can also create ghost images of mech's on opposing radar according to TT rules.

Then some one screwed up on the lore because that's not what ECM does.

Also, Angels ECM only has increased range, can not have its jamming signal picked up by BAP, and when switched to ECCM can counter two ECM mechs.

You are correct that it can create ghost images though.

[MischiefSC]

Coralld, on 04 February 2013 - 01:00 PM, said:

Really? Because Sarna says other wise.
http://www.sarna.net...rdian_ECM_Suite

Yes ECM jams lock on weapons (LRMs and SSRMs) as well as run interference to spotters, however, ECM DOES NOT hide you from radar or messes with peoples IFF systems, nor does it counter TAG, at any range. So, as long as a mech has TAG and is painting the ECM mech they can still hit the ECM mech with their SSRMs. The only way ECM hides you from radar and protects you from TAG (and Thermal) is if you also have Stealth armor, which I have mentioned in this thread before, and also doesn't show up until 3063.

Oh, also, only mechs with BAP can pick up the jamming signal from ECM mechs, regular radar doesn't.

I'm saying in MWO ECM does NOT work like it did in TT. I wasn't aware that in TT you couldn't shoot LRMs or SSRMs at someone within 180m of an ECM equipped unit? All it does in game mechanics is block Artemis, narc, BAP and C3. It doesn't reduce unit detection range or the ability to shoot LRM at it. SSRMs can be fired at it just as regular SRMs.

[Orzorn]

Coralld, on 04 February 2013 - 01:00 PM, said:

however, ECM DOES NOT hide you from radar or messes with peoples IFF systems

It does in double blind rules.

But if I recall, it never stopped LRMs or SSRMs. The rules say "targetting equipment", but nowhere can you look to find a rule that says that ECM stops those weapons.

[Orzorn]

MischiefSC, on 04 February 2013 - 01:03 PM, said:

I absolutely applaud you and your team for being able to handle top end competitive matches without any ECM. As I don't drop in 8v8 with a team I'll take your word for it, though I'd say it conflicts with what 'everyone else' is saying.

So you have through experience and research learned the specific gaps in ECM performance that experienced individuals can take advantage of to limit the otherwise powerful limitations of ECM.

Its important to note that Vlad and I are in the same merc corp (the Remnant, see my signature), and drop together in the same 8 mans, yet you can tell that both he and I have pulled different conclusions from what we've seen.

And the thing is, I'd say (of course, I'm a biased party here, at least for myself), that they're both very valid conclusions. And that's the rub for the developers, I'm sure.

[Kyone Akashi]

Vlad Ward, on 04 February 2013 - 12:59 PM, said:

Most of these issues were solved when Movement code was updated. A JR7-D pilot should not have issues hitting Ravens with its dual SRM4s.

If that were true, the Commandos and Ravens would boat SRM4s as well rather than Streaks. After all, it would only make them even more efficient?

Coralld, on 04 February 2013 - 01:00 PM, said:

Yes ECM jams lock on weapons (LRMs and SSRMs) as well as run interference to spotters, however, ECM DOES NOT hide you from radar or messes with peoples IFF systems, nor does it counter TAG, at any range. So, as long as a mech has TAG and is painting the ECM mech they can still hit the ECM mech with their SSRMs. The only way ECM hides you from radar and protects you from TAG (and Thermal) is if you also have Stealth armor, which I have mentioned in this thread before, and also doesn't show up until 3063.

As noted in the sarna article, ECM does jam C3, which I think is the IFF we have in the game right now. Think about it - no comms, no sensors .. no way to differentiate between friend or foe other than the pilot using his or her own eyes.

As for LRMs and SSRMs, they can still be used against ECM-protected 'Mechs in the TT, if perhaps only because those weapons are not even guided there but only in MWO. Also, the Guardian suite does mess with radar, etc. Realistically speaking, if a unit shows up on someone's sensor in any way, then you should also be able to target them. You just won't see who it is, or the extent of their damages, or what weapons they carry.

[Vlad Ward]

Kyone Akashi, on 04 February 2013 - 01:16 PM, said:

If that were true, the Commandos and Ravens would boat SRM4s as well rather than Streaks. After all, it would only make them even more efficient?

If they're good Light pilots, yes. Thing is, good Light pilots use Jenners. There's really little point in using anything else if you have the skill to use SRMs at 150kph.

[Coralld]

MischiefSC, on 04 February 2013 - 01:09 PM, said:

I'm saying in MWO ECM does NOT work like it did in TT. I wasn't aware that in TT you couldn't shoot LRMs or SSRMs at someone within 180m of an ECM equipped unit? All it does in game mechanics is block Artemis, narc, BAP and C3. It doesn't reduce unit detection range or the ability to shoot LRM at it. SSRMs can be fired at it just as regular SRMs.

You can still dumb fire LRMs and SSRMs sure, which needs to be implimented in MWO, but I was regarding the missile lock.

Orzorn, on 04 February 2013 - 01:10 PM, said:

It does in double blind rules.

If I am not mistaken Double Blinded rules are a special/optional set of rules out side the standard, MWO, at least to my knowledge, is playing by the standard rules.

EDIT:

Kyone Akashi, on 04 February 2013 - 01:16 PM, said:

As noted in the sarna article, ECM does jam C3, which I think is the IFF we have in the game right now. Think about it - no comms, no sensors .. no way to differentiate between friend or foe other than the pilot using his or her own eyes.

As for LRMs and SSRMs, they can still be used against ECM-protected 'Mechs in the TT, if perhaps only because those weapons are not even guided there but only in MWO. Also, the Guardian suite does mess with radar, etc. Realistically speaking, if a unit shows up on someone's sensor in any way, then you should also be able to target them. You just won't see who it is, or the extent of their damages, or what weapons they carry.

I have thought about it, and I get where you are going with this but the C3 systems allow target shairing between mechs. Say if you have six people in front of you, three friends and three foes, you will be able to see them and easily pick between them, regardless of ECM or not. However, if you take those three enemies and three friends and put them on the other side of a hill, and your friends are spotting for you, if your spotters are in range of the enemies mech ECM then that friendly is unable to share targeting data with you and the rest of your team, but they can still see who is good and who is bad, but sense your are on the other side of the hill you won't see squat because they are not in LOS and the enemies ECM is preventing target sharing.

Edited by Coralld, 04 February 2013 - 01:54 PM.