24 replies to this topic

[Tor6]

As everyone has sort of begun to notice (and many noticed immediately), streaks aren't nearly as dangerous nor numerous as they used to be due to ECM. At least if you're a heavy mech. Not being able to target lights under cover of ecm without having MORE ecm on your side has turned ecm into an arms race and the devs seem happy with this. I don't agree with it, but who knows if it'll be the norm several months from now.

Light hunting has fallen pretty much universally to the Raven3l and ECM commando, as they're the only ones who can reliably use streaks (as they carry their own ecm for counter). This kills diversity and makes piloting any other light mech a liability because you're extremely likely to be paired against one of those two and if you are your chances of effectively eliminating them are... very low to say the least as their anti-lagshield weapons will work and yours won't.

So how would folks feel about possibly limiting streak and/or ecm use by seperating the two technologies. If ECM is a hard counter to streaks, having it disable the tracking of streaks when mounted on the same mech might be nice from a balance perspective. Because as it is right now being able to equip both makes the raven the be all end all of light mechs. It's pretty much only reliably countered by another raven or a bigger, organized mass of ecm/streak equipped mechs.

Seperating streaks from ECM would force ecm mechs to work in pairs with a streak carrier if they wanted to use these weapons which pretty much decide any fight vs a light mech. It would make folks choose between powerful defense and powerful offense, instead of making both mandatory on the same chassis (choosing just one currently is extremely uncompetitive).

This would also give teams that happen to have less ecm a fighting chance rather than simply losing all their lights to the lights of the enemy team (since a light that can't use its streaks or doesn't have streaks will lose ~99% of the time vs a pilot of roughly equal skill who can still fire his magical always hit missiles).

It might cut down use of both [overused] technologies as teams were forced to choose between them and make folks come up with slightly more varied builds. And yea it didn't work this way in canon, but we've already HEAVILY deviated from canon in both the way SSRMs and ECM work, so.. yea...

Thoughts?

[De La Fresniere]

Well this didn't see any responses... maybe it was a bit too long for the average reader?

It's true that with the current situation (Lights cannot be reliably hit without Streaks), any ECM-equipped Light will obliterate a non-ECM Light with ease. Where Jenners used to be everywhere, I barely see any anymore because they're suddenly harmless fodder against the now-common ECM Lights.

In the case of Ravens it's doubly irritating because, while they can't be hit, they have a 100% hit rate. That's against everyone, not just other Lights.

Indeed, your suggestion happens to be a remarkably elegant solution. It's always best to look for potential issues though, so here's what I see could go wrong:

Once the netcode is fixed (assuming that ever happens), Streaks will not be particularly better at killing Lights. Then ECM-equipped mechs would just have one less weapon option for no reason. I can see 2D variant Commandos suffering since missiles are pretty much all they use, and there's not that many types of missiles out there. They can't really boat LRMs so they'd pretty much have to stick with SRMs only.

The developers might also be wary about starting a precedent. While this particular patch you're bringing happens to be the exact same shape as the wound, it might not always be the case. Arbitrary rules are dangerous and will generally yield a very negative response from the affected playerbase.

Personally I think it would improve the current situation greatly, though. I'd be OK with implementing this as long as it's clearly stated that it's a highly unusual, *temporary* measure to counter a situation serious enough to warrant it.

[w0rm]

The simplest solution would be fixing the netcode.

[Mahws]

Yep. Streaks are only necessary because I can't:
A. Hit a light reliably with any other weapon due to the botched netcode.
B. Smack them to the ground with my Dragon and alpha strike them in the face.

Once those two things are returned to the game SSRM will no longer be a requirement for winning against a light mech.

Edited by Mahws, 22 December 2012 - 05:13 AM.

[QuantumButler]

w0rm, on 22 December 2012 - 04:56 AM, said:

The simplest solution would be fixing the netcode.

The netcode has been like this ever since the game was opened to the first 500 closed beta testers, it's very, very unlikely it can ever be fixed, certainly not anytime soon, should we all just suffer the invulnerable light mechs for a year, maybe two, until netcode is fixed?

[OldGrayDonkey]

What I don't understand is why streaks are affected by ECM in the first place. Streaks should be immune to ECM because they require visual and close range locks, which implies to me a visual tagging system, not something based on passive detection of emissions. As long as they can see the target, they should operate as designed. The only thing that should affect them is environmental effects.

But fix the netcode anyway.

[Aaren Kai]

Net code fix: Yes

Story, fluff, and whatever: ECM jams all locks. Period. Theirs and yours by by blasting out signals on all frequencies messing everyone up. Now streaks won't work and friendly LRMs won't want to stand near you.

[Sarevos]

QuantumButler, on 22 December 2012 - 05:18 AM, said:

The netcode has been like this ever since the game was opened to the first 500 closed beta testers, it's very, very unlikely it can ever be fixed, certainly not anytime soon, should we all just suffer the invulnerable light mechs for a year, maybe two, until netcode is fixed?

fight back to back

[OldGrayDonkey]

Aaren Kai, on 22 December 2012 - 06:00 AM, said:

Net code fix: Yes

Story, fluff, and whatever: ECM jams all locks. Period. Theirs and yours by by blasting out signals on all frequencies messing everyone up. Now streaks won't work and friendly LRMs won't want to stand near you.

Well, for them to blast visual frequencies they'd really only need a massive white light, which sure, is easy to do, but I don't see it in the game. That in itself would reveal the target. Light isn't typically considered an em source. It's why we develop our own weapons to use visual lockons instead of relying on EM. It can't be jammed. If the develop an ECM so powerful to fry the weapons, they'll probably fry their own butts too.

What it boils down to is that the Inner Sphere represents a massive space faring civilization that has mastered interstellar space travel, yet their weapons are based on 20th century Earth technology. This is just beyond my reasoning sometimes, though I'm willing to suspend it for a decent game. I still think streaks should be immune to ECM.

[knight-of-ni]

Interesting idea that I admit I'm not sure where I stand. Pre-ECM, I certainly didn't care for streak boats. Post-ECM, that solved the streak boat problem, but is what we have now any better? I don't know so I'll continue to play the game and read what others are saying.

I do disagree with your premise, however. I'm still piloting my Jenner and having a great time doing it. What ECM has done is cause me to modify my tactics. I now use the terrain much more effectively to break the lock of the SSRM shooter.
I've seen plenty of other Jenner pilots out there so I know I'm not alone.

And lastly yes, I too want the netcode fixed.

[Grand Ayatollah Kerensky]

The netcode is fine, you guys just can't aim. Lights are hard to hit because they are small, fast, and maneuverable, not because of some lag shield delusion. If you guys spent as much time practicing your aim as you do whining on the forums, you might not be so hopelessly bad at aiming.

[Deadoon]

Narcisoldier, on 22 December 2012 - 06:46 AM, said:

The netcode is fine, you guys just can't aim. Lights are hard to hit because they are small, fast, and maneuverable, not because of some lag shield delusion. If you guys spent as much time practicing your aim as you do whining on the forums, you might not be so hopelessly bad at aiming.

2/10

[Rex Budman]

Narcisoldier, on 22 December 2012 - 06:46 AM, said:

The netcode is fine, you guys just can't aim. Lights are hard to hit because they are small, fast, and maneuverable, not because of some lag shield delusion. If you guys spent as much time practicing your aim as you do whining on the forums, you might not be so hopelessly bad at aiming.

Worst post I've ever seen and I think you're a troll...

Calling out whiners when you yourself have no idea of the issue, and refuse to believe there is an issue.

Devs acknowledge the code is horrid - it is consensus amongst players. Why you think this is a non-issue or doesn't exist is way beyond me.

[Grand Ayatollah Kerensky]

If you're not hitting lights, it's because you can't aim. I haven't seen warping lights in months.

[QuantumButler]

Narcisoldier, on 22 December 2012 - 07:21 AM, said:

If you're not hitting lights, it's because you can't aim. I haven't seen warping lights in months.

HAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

[Grand Ayatollah Kerensky]

QuantumButler, on 22 December 2012 - 08:03 AM, said:

HAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Actually, no. Learn to aim.

[Tor6]

In my day people put some effort into their trolls, but I digress.

I can see where some of you are coming from with regards to it being a bandaid solution that might set a bad precedent once (if) netcode is fixed. I guess I'm just so used to it being like this (or slightly worse) that I don't hold too much hope that it'll ever be good enough. I agree that this could lead to other weapons being balanced in weird ways if you make the exception for this piece of tech. Oh well, it was just an idea.

[Corpsecandle]

@Narc

'Gratz netcode isn't an issue for you. It's not an issue for me either. That doesn't make it a non issue for others. Devs have come onto these forums plenty of times and talked about issues with the netcode, so the problem exists and it's being reviewed, so stop it with the blustering.

@Tor6
I like the idea. I've always wondered if making ANYONE under the effects of ECM protection. should also have the their target locks interfered with. I pug exclusively, and its always a bummer when we run up against a premade with 4 ECMs and our side doesn't have any (or more often just the one). That's not a fault of the ECM, that's a fault of the matchmaker so I ditched the idea.

You're idea seems much more reasonable though. The decision for the ECM carrier to be offensive or defensive is one that affects the whole team as a single players desire to make use of their full armament suddenly renders the rest of their team vulnerable. I don't think it would do a whole lot for my particular scenario, but it would definitely make the ECM control more of a conscious decision.

+1 Vote

[Cache]

How about this instead.

[Ascendent]

Would have to test it to see its overall impact on gameplay, but I like it. I think an ECM for lights should have a down side (since its only 1.5T) to balance out electronic warfare lights vs hunter killer lights. Right now ECM is what makes a light a hunter killer which is strange.