95 replies to this topic

[SuomiWarder]

With Clan mechs coming, many of which have multiple Streak Launchers of greater than 2 missiles, things are going to get very ECM reliant.

In the original rules streaks didn't fire on a missed die roll. They were not weapons that always hit. As the game engine has to determine if a hit would occur anyway (as it does for an SRM launch), why can't streaks work the same way? If your aim point would result in a miss when you fire, nothing happens. If it hit would have been recorded the missiles launch and hit.

Six Streak 6 Timberwolves with lasers to back them up are going to cause much nashing of teeth and whining of OPness.

[Cache]

SuomiWarder, on 18 February 2013 - 12:21 PM, said:

With Clan mechs coming, many of which have multiple Streak Launchers of greater than 2 missiles, things are going to get very ECM reliant.

Why worry about little-ol' Streak launchers when Clan LRMs have no minimum range. They lock on nearly the same.

[Broceratops]

SuomiWarder, on 18 February 2013 - 12:21 PM, said:

As the game engine has to determine if a hit would occur anyway (as it does for an SRM launch), why can't streaks work the same way? If your aim point would result in a miss when you fire, nothing happens. If it hit would have been recorded the missiles launch and hit.

because at the moment of firing, it has yet to be determined 100% if you're going to hit or miss. it depends still on the movement of the target. also what does 'hit' mean. if i fire 18 srms and 3 hits, thats basically a miss to me.

[Jman5]

This is one of those things where we can cross that bridge when we get there. There is no point nerfing existing weapons because some time in the murky future there will be better versions out there. If Streak SRM 6s are released with clan invasion, then SSRMs should be balanced in tandem with that release.

I think Streak SRM 2s are fine at the moment. Purposefully weakening them for weapons that aren't even in the game yet would be a bad move.

Edited by Jman5, 18 February 2013 - 12:41 PM.

[Khobai]

Not that hard to implement.

1) when you pull trigger, streak launchers fire an invisible dummy missile that tracks the target but has a chance of missing.
2) if the dummy missile hits, the streaks fire, and all the streaks automatically hit.
3) if the dummy missile misses, the streaks simply dont fire, but the cooldown is still expended as if you had fired.

There would be an odd firing delay between when you pull the trigger and the missiles actually fire... but that delay shouldnt affect accuracy much since at that point it wouldve already been determined if the missiles will hit or not (I suppose a friendly mech could step in the way though, but that can happen now).

Edited by Khobai, 18 February 2013 - 12:44 PM.

[Cache]

Khobai, on 18 February 2013 - 12:41 PM, said:

Not that hard to implement.

1) when you pull trigger, streak launchers fire an invisible dummy missile that tracks the target but has a chance of missing.
2) if the dummy missile hits, the streaks fire, and all the streaks automatically hit.
3) if the dummy missile misses, the streaks simply dont fire, but the cooldown is still expended as if you had fired.

Why not leave lock acquisition as it is and just break the lock after every shot?

Edited by Cache, 18 February 2013 - 12:43 PM.

[GrimlockONE]

When maps become larger builds will have to become more diverse. Without prior knowledge of map size a pilot can be his/her own worst enemy.

Ex. Drop with AC-20 K2 on Alpine, supposed to be large map, and mechs with range will have a fun time picking apart the K2 trying to close the gap to get in effective range.

Same with streaks and srms, To use them you must be within 200m, if not more depending on style. These cheese or one trick pony builds are nice within current map limitations but when the playing fields grow, their appearances will shrink.

[Khobai]

Quote

Why not leave lock acquisition as it is and just break the lock after every shot?

Because that makes the weapon useless. It takes like 2 seconds to lockon. Thats basically increasing the weapons cooldown by 50%. Streaks would do so little dps they wouldnt be worth it.

[shadevarr]

Cache, on 18 February 2013 - 12:43 PM, said:

Why not leave lock acquisition as it is and just break the lock after every shot?

Because its too simple and effective of a solution.

[Cache]

Khobai, on 18 February 2013 - 12:46 PM, said:

Because that makes the weapon useless. It takes like 2 seconds to lockon. Thats basically increasing the weapons cooldown by 50%. Streaks would do so little dps they wouldnt be worth it.

The usefulness of DPS is greatly exaggerated. DPS does nothing if you're not hitting.

shadevarr, on 18 February 2013 - 12:46 PM, said:

Because its too simple and effective of a solution.

Much more complicated actually. They would have to have a different lock-on mechanic than LRMs. With LRM flight time, you couldn't just lose lock after firing.

Edited by Cache, 18 February 2013 - 12:50 PM.

[Corpsecandle]

Khobai, on 18 February 2013 - 12:41 PM, said:

Not that hard to implement.

1) when you pull trigger, streak launchers fire an invisible dummy missile that tracks the target but has a chance of missing.
2) if the dummy missile hits, the streaks fire, and all the streaks automatically hit.
3) if the dummy missile misses, the streaks simply dont fire, but the cooldown is still expended as if you had fired.

There would be an odd firing delay between when you pull the trigger and the missiles actually fire... but that delay shouldnt affect accuracy much since at that point it wouldve already been determined if the missiles will hit or not (I suppose a friendly mech could step in the way though, but that can happen now).

That would most likely lead to odd clipping issues with missiles shooting through buildings though. I don't think the devs would intentionally implement something like that (especially since they've made game functionality changes specifically for clipping issues, namely cataphract torso twist).

[Dukarriope]

Don't, like, almost all clan mechs carry some ECM?

[SpiralRazor]

SuomiWarder, on 18 February 2013 - 12:21 PM, said:

With Clan mechs coming, many of which have multiple Streak Launchers of greater than 2 missiles, things are going to get very ECM reliant.

In the original rules streaks didn't fire on a missed die roll. They were not weapons that always hit. As the game engine has to determine if a hit would occur anyway (as it does for an SRM launch), why can't streaks work the same way? If your aim point would result in a miss when you fire, nothing happens. If it hit would have been recorded the missiles launch and hit.

Six Streak 6 Timberwolves with lasers to back them up are going to cause much nashing of teeth and whining of OPness.

Theres no way to model die rolls in real time sims...... If you made your "to hit roll", which is basically your guy succeeding(aiming) in getting a target lock on the enemy, they fired, and all the missiles hit.

I fail to see what you dont understand about that?

[Orzorn]

They could make the lock on box smaller so you would actually have to be more accurate with your aiming. Currently you can look pretty far away and still keep it.

@ Cache
They could always create two lock on reticules. One for streak weapons and one for lrms. That would also let them do my idea and make different lock on box sizes. Right now they are the same size because they share a reticule.

[Monkey Bone]

How about that ½ of the launched streaks have poor homing, thus will miss for sure if the target is moving?

[Rofl]

Dukarriope, on 18 February 2013 - 12:50 PM, said:

Don't, like, almost all clan mechs carry some ECM?

No, ECM is kinda shunned in the clans. Goes against their 1 v 1 duke it out honorable style of combat

[Cache]

Orzorn, on 18 February 2013 - 12:54 PM, said:

@ Cache
They could always create two lock on reticules. One for streak weapons and one for lrms. That would also let them do my idea and make different lock on box sizes. Right now they are the same size because they share a reticule.

I thought about that, but the HUD is pretty busy already. I'm not convinced that's a good idea. In Closed Beta there was a feature where a thin circle around your reticule flashed when your shots hit your opponent (instead of the reticule itself flashing red as it does now). It was very distracting and received poor feedback, hence the change.

[Ashnod]

What should happen is you loose lock integrity when it would miss, and it should require a new lock for each volley fired, like in TT you would have to roll to see if you would achieve lock, and when you did all the missiles hit

[SuomiWarder]

I'm not saying add a die roll to MWO, I am sayng that the computer aleady decides if you scored a hit or not with all other weapons.

And if the devs don't anticipate issues and design to avoid future problems, we will be in beta forever as they change things to adjust for new issues every month.

And I have heard many srm boat Cat pilots and Streak hogs bark about how they have to get in close to use their weapons. Maybe there will be a map that makes that difficult some day, but right now it is not difficult at all. You just hide behind your allies and sooner or later a base cap or brawl will allow you to waddle into range. It's not a terrible hard skill to develope.

[Rofl]

2 cents: The streak lock on and track mechanism is fine. They just need to add a counter to it (aside from ECM)... some piece of equipment maybe already in the game... that people don't use much.... hmmm...that almost all mechs can carry.... what could we use?