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Ac2 Alpha Heat Penalty - An Explanation


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#1 daemur

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 03:35 PM

Concerning AC2's and Heat:

Here four cases are shown in which the user is firing multiple AC2's.

Posted Image

In Case 1:
The user fires 2 AC2's in the same group with chain fire. The shots fire in .52 second intervals. No heat penalty occurs.

In Case 2:
The user fires 3 AC's in the same weapon group without chain fire. The shots are fired in .52 second intervals and three at a time. No heat penalty occurs.

In Case 3:
The user fires 2 AC2's in the same group with chain fire as well as a third AC2 without chainfire in a separate weapon group. The shots are fired from Weapons 1 and 2 at a .52 second interval and with Weapon 3 firing .1 seconds after the first AC2 and .42 seconds before the last. Heat penalties begin to occur with the fourth shot (See Heat Penalty below).

In Case 4:
The user fires 3 AC2's in separate groups and in succession all without chain fire. The shots fire .1 seconds after one another and leave a .32 second interval between "volleys."

Heat Penalty (And why this is happening):
Case 1 - The user has generated 11 heat (ignoring dissipation) within 5.72 seconds and fired 12 shots - No heat penalty
Case 2 - The user has generated 33 heat (ignoring dissipation) within 5.72 seconds and fired 36 shots - No heat penalty
Case 3 - The user has generated 72 heat (ignoring dissipation) within 2.7 seconds and fired 12 shots - Heat penalty
Case 4 - The user has generated 72 heat (ignoring dissipation) within 1.76 seconds and fired 12 shots - Heat penalty

WHY IS THIS HAPPENING:
Weapons of the same type, to which heat penalty applies, require .51 seconds between shots in order to avoid being counted toward the total number fired at one time. As shown above, and due to their short cooldown, if the user staggers the firing of AC2's they will continue to fire within the .51 second window causing the total shots fired to increase with each shot. While the multiplier applied to the heat of the AC2 is relatively low, the overall effect of firing a constant stream of bullets can be significant.

TL;DR:
The system is working as intended. In the example s made in comments and videos by these posts users often show AC2's being fired in succession and in separate weapon groups. Similar fire rates may be obtained by grouping the weapons together and firing with their natural cooldown or with chainfire, however attempting to stagger the weapons and fire in a continuous stream will often result in a significant heat penalty.

P.S. According to design, the AC2 Global Heat Multiplier is under revision.

Cheers,
daemur

#2 PEEFsmash

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 07:59 PM

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View Postdaemur, on 03 September 2013 - 03:35 PM, said:


Case 2 - The user has generated 33 heat within 5.72 seconds and fired 36 shots - No heat penalty
Case 4 - The user has generated 72 heat within 2.7 seconds and fired 12 shots - Heat penalty

TL;DR:
The system is working as intended.


laksdjfalskdf....If that is what you call working as intended, where AC2s go from less than 1 Heat Per Shot to 6 Heat Per Shot based purely on the rhythm of the shot, then those are some of the most arbitrary and bizarre intentions known to modern man.

PS: This won't nerf people who are any good at this game. The good players will just macro their way around any ghost heat limitation. Instead, all this kind of stuff accomplishes is that it makes new or low-level players ragequit because they were shooting their little dakkaguns at the enemy robostompy and then BADAM they "randomly" overheat when they did seemingly nothing different except cross some arbitrary, unintuitive line, and they have no idea why it happened.

Edited by PEEFsmash, 03 September 2013 - 08:06 PM.


#3 YueFei

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 08:09 PM

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Just goes to show that ghost heat is confusing and unintuitive. Imagine a new player trying to cope with this, and he doesn't read the forums. Even if you *do* read the forums, look at the amount of information you needed to provide to explain this, with a chart and multiple paragraphs!

If you want to reduce burst damage you just reduce the resource a player has available to dish out damage, which in this case is the heat capacity. That affects all weapons equally without requiring convoluted and silly mechanisms like ghost heat.

If you would just cap heat at 30, and then make double heat sinks true doubles, the game would have *less* burst damage but actually become faster paced, because heat would dissipate faster, allowing a higher rate of fire, without having mechs get gibbed suddenly.

#4 MisterFiveSeven

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 08:16 PM

View PostYueFei, on 03 September 2013 - 08:09 PM, said:

Just goes to show that ghost heat is confusing and unintuitive. Imagine a new player trying to cope with this, and he doesn't read the forums. Even if you *do* read the forums, look at the amount of information you needed to provide to explain this, with a chart and multiple paragraphs!

If you want to reduce burst damage you just reduce the resource a player has available to dish out damage, which in this case is the heat capacity. That affects all weapons equally without requiring convoluted and silly mechanisms like ghost heat.

If you would just cap heat at 30, and then make double heat sinks true doubles, the game would have *less* burst damage but actually become faster paced, because heat would dissipate faster, allowing a higher rate of fire, without having mechs get gibbed suddenly.


I lol'd. This makes way too much sense.

Ghost heat is obviously here to stay. We're just in denial still :(

Edited by MisterFiveSeven, 12 September 2013 - 05:08 PM.


#5 Kanatta Jing

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 08:28 PM

So... PGI actually made a mechanic with the intention of stopping AC-2 Macro's?

I suppose it might reduce server load or something... Please tell me it's to reduce server load and not just to spoil people's fun.

#6 scJazz

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 09:03 PM

View PostKanatta Jing, on 03 September 2013 - 08:28 PM, said:

So... PGI actually made a mechanic with the intention of stopping AC-2 Macro's?

I suppose it might reduce server load or something... Please tell me it's to reduce server load and not just to spoil people's fun.

Too be fair...

mind you I hate how they did it... how it has taken 6 weeks to get this post... how they did the working, bug, working, bug, working dance... that they were even putting AC2s, LL, LPLs, ERLLs in the whole Heat Scaling group...

but still to be fair...
Yeah you do not want a Server Authoritative Architecture to have to deal with tracking collisions on 16 objects (4xAC2 @ 0.25 sec cooldown) moving 2Km/s being generated every second by a single Avatar in a MOBA. Someone will at this point mention LRMs don't. Even ALRM90 moving 120m/s fired every 4.25 sec from a Catapult A1 isn't even remotely close to the Server or Client load.

EDIT: You need to read this post.
http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__2726475

STILL NOT LETTING THE LEAD GAME DESIGNER OFF THE HOOK FOR FORGETTING ABOUT THE FAST FIRE SKILL WHICH PUSHES THE COOLDOWN BACK UNDER THE THRESHOLD!

Edited by scJazz, 13 September 2013 - 04:12 AM.


#7 FupDup

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 09:04 PM

I like how the OP didn't consider the effects of the Fast Fire pilot tree buff, which actually screws up the entire system for the AC/2.

#8 scJazz

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 09:25 PM

View PostFupDup, on 03 September 2013 - 09:04 PM, said:

I like how the OP didn't consider the effects of the Fast Fire pilot tree buff, which actually screws up the entire system for the AC/2.

MAJOR EDIT: You want to read this post...
http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__2726475

Yeah I forgot to add a comment regarding how the Official Explanation doesn't even include the bloody Fast Fire skill which we the vocal minority have only been pointing out for 2 weeks now. After the 0.52 sec cooldown nerf.

How is it possible for Fast Fire to be overlooked in the above chart? While designing the 0.52 sec cool down? Seriously, how is it possible to not pay attention to detail?

Edited by scJazz, 13 September 2013 - 04:12 AM.


#9 Deathlike

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 09:40 PM

This thing called math. Heresy?

.52 (AC2 cooldown) * .95 (fast fire modifier) = .494 (affected by ghost heat)
.53 (AC2 cooldown) * .95 (fast fire modifier) = .5035 (probably still affected by ghost heat).
.54 (AC2 cooldown) * .95 (fast fire modifier) = .513 (unaffected by ghost heat)

Try it. It's amazing!

#10 Tarantoga

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 10:52 PM

with all the doubt to 2nd hand pgi 'fixes" - screw you macro users, do you really need scripts to play the game for you?

#11 Victor Morson

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 11:07 PM

I have a super easy fix that would win the hearts and minds of your playerbase in the process: Get rid of Ghost Heat entirely. You guys are fixing the actual weapons now, so it's pointless. Nobody's ever liked it, so save yourself massive debugging headaches and axe it. Add a few seconds to some ROFs if you feel a need to nerf anything.

#12 SuckyJack

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 11:34 PM

This is why Ghost Heat is completely counter-intuitive and the entire design behind the AC2 is completely borked.

To start with, there is no practical gain to having "Chain Fire" turned on for an AC/2 group. This is because when you fire an AC/2 with Chain Fire the original AC/2 has already cooled off. Putting 2 AC/2s in a group and chain firing them is about the same as having just 1 AC/2 in it's own control group and just holding down the fire button.

What this design for Ghost Heat shows is that depending on how you shoot your AC/2s you can shoot less and get a lot more heat. The most effective way and the only way that really avoids ghost heat is to put those 3 AC/2s in one control group and just hold down the trigger.

So Ghost Heat is rearing it's ugly head by punishing players that do not just Alpha Strike all of their weapons.

Not only that, the AC/2 suffers from a higher Heat Per Second than all other Ballistic and Missile weapons as well as having it higher than the Small, Medium and Large Lasers. It's Damage Per Second Per Ton is less than that of an AC10 while Damage Potential Per Ton remains the same.

Ghost Heat has done nothing but just punish creative use of the weapon. Changing the multiplier will benefit those that put more than 3 AC/2s in their mech as they would be facing less heat overall, the ghost heat trigger resets after 0.5 seconds so they just face the penalty once per shot instead of those that stagger 3 AC/2s and keep the penalty rolling and stacking.

Because of how silly a design Ghost Heat is and how AC/2s work we have a situation where Ghost Heat is promoting the exact style of gameplay it is meant to punish. Where PPC Boats and Laser Boats have to group their weapons separately and fire them in staggered groups because of Ghost Heat, AC/2s are pushed into just outright Alphas as anything else is either punished by Ghost Heat or is wasting the tonnage for the AC/2

Ghost Heat needs to go. In it's place the Heat Scale needs to be tuned and Heatsinks need to have a better function. By adding a Heat Reduction when firing weapons in addition to the Heat Loss over time to heat sinks you can perform the same "Promoting Gameplay" functions of Ghost Heat in a manner that is intuitive and true to the source material.

That is, if instead of Ghost Heat we had "Each SHS will ignore X amount of Heat generated in a heat tick. Each DHS will ignore Y amount of heat generated in a Heat Tick. Heat Ticks are 0.5 seconds." Then you can build a heat scale that pushes people away from high heat alphas and promotes more creative and reactionary play normally seen with things like Missile Boats and Brawling.

This style of gameplay, one that promotes damage over time rather than damage up front, allows players to react and allows skill to spread that damage around (Whether it be a lack of skill in aiming or a greater skill in movement.)

TL:DR?

Ghost heat is just bad and doesn't make any logical sense.

EDIT: Oh, I should also point out that Ghost Heat has led to a nerf of the AC/2's fire rate so that it's pre-nerf RoF without FastFire is about the same as it's post-nerf RoF with Fast Fire. Because Fast Fire was causing it to trigger Ghost Heat under normal use. So, weaken the weapon to that a skill designed to boost RoF is required just to bring it to it's old values?

Not a change that really affects the weapon in a practical sense, just on paper. But it shows the direction used to correct mistakes, when the better option would have been to make the AC/2 exempt from Fast Fire in the first place instead of altering it so that an improvement skill is required to bring it to it's old values because of a problem with Ghost Heat, not the damage or RoF of the AC/2 itself.

Edit2: You know what? I also called out how bad it would be use to Out Of Match Economics to balance In Match Performance of weapons and gear back when Repair and Rearm was just being discussed as a possibility. Just hire me PGI :P

Edited by SuckyJack, 03 September 2013 - 11:49 PM.


#13 Farpenoodle

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 11:49 PM

Just turn it off for AC2s. They're about the farthest thing from being a problem. Unless you bring down the heat, boating them will never be all that effective.

#14 MustrumRidcully

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Posted 04 September 2013 - 12:27 AM

View PostTarantoga, on 03 September 2013 - 10:52 PM, said:

with all the doubt to 2nd hand pgi 'fixes" - screw you macro users, do you really need scripts to play the game for you?

You don't need a macro to stagger AC/2 fire. Just be able to roll your fingers over the number keys.

---

I do not really believe that this is "working as intended", since i doubt it was intended that the AC/2 would explode in heat production like that, or that you could suffer the heat penalty because you use a fast-firing weapon.

It might be working exactly as the system was programmed, but that's not the same as the design intent.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 04 September 2013 - 12:33 AM.


#15 Homeless Bill

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Posted 04 September 2013 - 01:04 AM

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View Postdaemur, on 03 September 2013 - 03:35 PM, said:

The system is working as intended.

Posted Image

So instead of saying, "Yes, it's broken and we'll fix it," you've posted a defense about why it's working. Unbelievable. It's so clearly broken, I can't believe you're actually trying to tell us this is working as intended.

I fire the same weapons two different ways for the same DPS and get massively different results? And that's intended? By design? As in, someone sat down and decided that heat penalties were going to be radically different based on how shots were staggered? No. That's ********.

You're just lazily using a global timer for something that isn't global. What you're doing:
  • Make a timer for each weapon (or weapon combination (PPC/ERPPC, SRM4/SRM6)).
  • When a weapon of that type is fired, reset the timer.
It probably looks something like this: http://pastie.org/8298598

It's lazy, and it doesn't work in all cases. It should function as a queue:
  • Make a queue for each weapon.
  • When a weapon is fired, add a timer starting at 0.5 to its queue.
  • Apply the heat penalty by looping through the queue and seeing how many of the current weapon have been fired recently.
  • Every frame, decrement the time in each timer in the queue and remove ones that reach zero.
It would look like this: http://pastie.org/8299220

Please. Fix it. This took me like 10 minutes.

Edited by Homeless Bill, 05 September 2013 - 10:29 AM.


#16 Kitane

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Posted 04 September 2013 - 02:21 AM

Set the AC2 heat scale multiplier to 0.0 or 0.01. That's all it takes.

Don't nerf AC2s even further to "compensate" for Fast Fire skill, please.

#17 scJazz

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Posted 04 September 2013 - 04:47 AM

View PostTarantoga, on 03 September 2013 - 10:52 PM, said:

with all the doubt to 2nd hand pgi 'fixes" - screw you macro users, do you really need scripts to play the game for you?

Forget about Macros! For the love of god just shut up about Macros already! It isn't about Macros! How about being able to do something that I can do with any other weapon system!?!

Left Mouse fires Left Side weapons... Right Mouse fires Right Side weapons! That way I don't waste ammo firing into a rock/building! Even firing the two weapon groups as groups unless I somehow miraculously manage to hit both mouse buttons at the same time I'm screwed! Don't even think about mentioning using a third weapon group already have lasers on that one.

No the pure sick twisted screwiness of the situation actually dictates that I do use a macro. A toggle to fire Group 1 and Group 2 normally or toggle ON to fire both on Left Mouse! So if this was some ill considered, unthoughtful plan to make me not use a Macro... whelp... totally screwed that up because it forces me to use them.

DOH!

#18 TexAss

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Posted 04 September 2013 - 05:17 AM

please get rid of the ghost heat...this is just nonsense.

it is not helping, especially not with the AC2. It's already brutally hot and now this...

Edited by TexAss, 04 September 2013 - 05:26 AM.


#19 Jammerben87

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Posted 04 September 2013 - 07:39 AM

This is absolute nonsense!

How on earth can you think that this explanation makes sense?

You state that firing more than the allowed weapons within .5 seconds will generate ghost heat right?

Ok so firing 5 AC2's at an interval of less than .5 seconds generates heat because that is more than the allowed number of weapons, ok that makes sense.

So why does firing them AT THE SAME TIME not count as less than .5 seconds?

Thats how it works with PPC's, if you try to alpha you generate ghost heat, i.e. fire them at the same time. Why on earth does this not also apply to AC2's??

So is this an entirely separate mechanic that is only applied to AC2's then?

Great work with the explanations again.....

#20 Levon K

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Posted 04 September 2013 - 08:01 AM

I have a math degree, and even I'm getting a headache with all this ghost heat mumbo jumbo.

Although, I have to hand it to them, if they were aiming at making this a skill based shooter, well, you gotta get real skilled in order to even understand the ghost heat in the first place.





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