16 replies to this topic

[Ansgar Odinson]

I am suggesting a new mechanic for jump jets in opposition to the recent changes.

I would like to see JJ be more jumpy than blimpy. What I suggest is giving JJ a charge meter. You hold down your jump button then release, the more you charge the more fuel is consumed and the closer to your max altitude you will jump. Once release the JJ would burn the amount of fuel charged all in one blast propelling the mech through the air in a forward arc rather quickly. Instead of hovering up you would jump. Once in the air jump jets would work a lot like they do now, any conserved fuel could be used to slow your fall. This change would have to be coupled with undoing the recent changes to jump jets.

Aside from making the jump jets more jumpy It would add the necessity for piloting skill to use them effectively and while it would not eliminate jump sniping it would keep it mostly in the hands of very skilled pilots.

Edited by Ansgar Odinson, 19 July 2014 - 12:40 PM.

[Aleksandr Sergeyevich Kerensky]

I love this idea, but 1 thing I want, is more forced forward moment. Jump jets don't move a mech forward enough, they are a form of local motion, so I believe they should force you to transverse the map more. Other then that, I absolutely love your idea.

I know this isn't table top, but I'd like to throw this out there. A mech with 3 jump jets moves 3 hexes without taking landing damage. So using all your Jump jet fuel should move you that far without hurting your legs. That means there should be enough fuel to land safely. Currently you can't jump as far forward as you should be able to. Jump jets in game currently only really push you upwards, but you bearly go anywhere, basically meaning you can get on top of a cliff instead of being able to go past it.

[Ansgar Odinson]

Absolutely, it should be a forward arc not strait up.

[Deimir]

Been throwing some spare brain-cycles at this myself recently. My thought was, in addition to angling the thrust to provide more forward movement and kicking it up a few newtons, adding a "minimum burn time" to the jets. Split the current jump meter into, say, four equal parts. Tapping the jump key would initiate a burn that continues to fire until the current segment is depleted. Holding the jump key would keep the jets going through multiple segments, and once the key is released the jets turn off after consuming whichever fuel segment was active at the time.

This gives jumpers more control over how much fuel they burn, so they can keep enough back to cushion their landing. The added mandatory burn time and forward movement means jump snipers can still do their thing but they have to be mindful of when their jets will turn off to give them a more accurate shot, as well as the orientation of their 'mech before takeoff, so they don't fling themselves in front of their cover.

[Koniving]

There's been two complete reworks to jumpjets I've been wanting to see.

Both would involve a 30 meter forward thrust per jumpjet over its duration of burn time. 12 meters max height (which is 6 meters safe height and landing) per jumpjet (treating the JJs as rechargeable fuel pods more than the actual thrusters).

The first idea was we cut off the initial boost altogether. No bunny hop or jump. Literally thrust from the ground. The more JJs you have not only do you move farther but you get there faster. Enforcing a minimum thrust time also makes some good sense.

Lets say the jumpjets accomplish their goal in 5 seconds. You jump, it starts taking off and with one jumpjet you get 12 meters in the air and 30 meters forward in 5 seconds (probably to land on a higher platform).

Now lets say you have 4 jumpjets. That's 48 meters up (but we want a safe landing again at an even height so only 24 up) and 120 meters forward in 5 seconds. That's everything from lift off in a stationary position to accelerating into the air to landing 120 meters away.

And if you had 7, you'd take off at 84 meters max height (again if you do that you have no safe way to come back down so 42 meters safe height) and 210 meters forward if you were stationary when you took off.

Ideally, these would be universal values at the lowest ends of each weight class per JJ class. 20 tons (thru 35 is class 1), 40 tons (thru 55 is class 2), 60 tons (thru 85 is class 3), and 90 tons (thru 100 is class 4). The heavier you are beyond where your class starts, the less you'll get out of it.

• So a 20 ton mech would get the full 12 meters up with a half ton JJ. A 35 ton mech wouldn't get as much.
  
• The 40 ton mech with a class 2 JJ has a 1 ton jumpjet that'll get it up on par with that 20 ton mech with a class 1. The 45 ton blackjack would get a little less, and the 55 ton mediums would get the least.
  
• At 60 tons, the quickdraw would be among the best jumpers, again at 1 ton per JJ but it's a class 3. The 70 through 80 ton jumpers would have vastly inferior jumping performance however with the same weight of jumpjet requiring more.
  
• At 90 tons, the Class 4 JJ at 2 tons each would allow the Highlander to fulfill the DFA attacks with maximum thrust; but even with 3 JJs that's 6 tons lost just to get 18 meters safe (36 max) height and 90 meters minimum forward movement when jumping from a stationary position. Again, weakening as you get to 95 ton jumping Banshees and 100 ton jumping assaults.

The other idea (which would use the JJ system as above but a different style) is similar to what was proposed here. Pre-charging (gives HSR time to communicate this to others for better hit detection on jumping mechs) at least half of the jump and making it literally a forward and upward launch with only the ability to use the other half to soften the landing, turn (and while thrusting be able to slightly shift your inertia). The more you have the higher and farther you'll go, but given this style you'd never get the maximum thrust I mentioned so you'd only get half. 6 meters height per JJ.

To make a poptart manuever you'll need at least 4 so you can get 24 meters in the air and you'd best make your shot quick because if you don't start thrusting real quick after you're in the air you'll hit the ground hard.

Either way it'd put a lot more skill in the idea and make them more maneuverable.

[Bloodweaver]

Koniving, on 20 July 2014 - 11:34 AM, said:

The first idea was we cut off the initial boost altogether. No bunny hop or jump. Literally thrust from the ground.

Just so you're aware, the latest patch seems to have gotten rid of this. From first-person there's certainly no initial boost. Just a steady (and painfully slow, now more so than before...) lift-off, from start to finish.

In third-person, you do SEE an animation for the bunny hop, but if you release the spacebar quickly enough(i.e., before the jets fire), the mech's body teleports back onto the ground. Not drops, not floats, but teleports, instantaneously. This suggests the "bunny hop" animation is in fact just an animation and no longer correlates to any actual movement of the mech's model, which is what first-person view shows as well.

Could use testing to confirm, of course

Oh, and I forgot: I love the idea of making each class of jump jet provide the most thrust for the lowest applicable 'mech chassis weight. Would certainly help breathe much-needed new life into the unfortunate mechs that are stuck at the low end of their weight category (40, 60, and 80 tonners, which have always suffered from the way engine weights/speeds and JJ weights are calculated in TT)

Edited by Bloodweaver, 20 July 2014 - 10:29 PM.

[Thunder Child]

I would love to see Jumpjets back to being useful for something other than poptarting. With a significant forward boost, they'd allow you to hop over things without needing a running start. I always imagined Jumpjets being much like the Arc of LRMs.
They'd basically LAUNCH you over whatever was in front of you. Not sure about "charging" them, or having fixed burst amounts, because I like being able to feather them as needed, or go for a full burn.

One thing I would like to see though, is the Crosshair hitting your toes on the upward thrust, and then hitting the ceiling on the downward plummet. It would mean that the Poptart would HAVE to take the shot at the apex of their flight, that 0.5 secs when the crosshair floats before freefall. This would put Jump "Sniping" into an ACTUAL Skill bracket, instead of into the hands of players like myself, who are terrible, but can still pull 500+ damage in a poptart.

[zortesh]

God yes, jumpjets as they stand are terrible, you can use them for maneuvering, barely... but you'll never jump over something to run away in a medium like i used to at times.

I hate how my griffin struggles and takes forever to get onto the radio-tower in forest colony...

But my poptart 3d can still poptart, given its even more boring then it used to be, but it still works, i managed 600 dmg and 3 kills first match after the nerf. (which was a pointless nerf since everyones too busy playing clanmechs to poptart anyway, and timbertarts are simply bleh compared to 3d poptarts, so they don't count... even if there is quite a few of them at times.)

I wish they'd gone the other way, higher faster jumps which are harder to control, if a poptart cant land behind the same cover they started behind, or has to walk 100 meters back to position before jumping again they just wont be as effective.

I'd love to be able to jump 100 meters forward, that'd be great for mobility, either for running away for closing into pointblank range.

I dont know if adding more jumpjets makes you rise faster, but it definitely should, and it defiantely doesent feel like it makes a difference in any way other then longer hovertimes.

Given they did nerf jumpsniping a fair bit, made it painful playstyle to use... I just iwsh they'd done it without killing the fun of jumpjets.

Edited by zortesh, 21 July 2014 - 12:48 AM.

[ErikModi]

Reading the BattleTech novels again recently, it's really starting to occur to me that jump jets are just not implemented correctly in MWO, or most MechWarrior games for that matter.

Jump jets are primarily used for mobility. They inflict tremendous accuracy penalties, and also provide some added difficulty to be hit while jumping, but they still aren't wholly effective as an offensive strategy. In tabletop, and often in the novels, they are used to bypass difficult terrain or reach areas a 'Mech simply can't walk to.

What I would like to see, in addition to the aforementioned arc and lateral as well as vertical movement, is a jump jet burn that lasts the entire length of the jump. Maximum height remains the same, but the jump jets continue to fire as your downward arc begins, keeping your descent slow and saving your precious leg armor. BattleMech computers are deceptively advanced, they should be able to calculate burn times, mass and gravity, and everything else to help a pilot land their 'Mech relatively safely.

"But wait," I hear you cry, "that'll make jump-capable 'Mechs immune to falling damage!" I say thee nay. If you jump your 'Mech over something that doesn't have an equal elevation to the elevation you started from, your jump jets will still run out of burn time (I hate referring to jump jet charge as fuel, because it isn't), and you'll fall the rest of the way. That may be negligible. . . two feet lower landing than launching isn't going to make a bit of difference. If, however, you're jumping over the slight rises near the edges of the mountain cliffs in Alpine peaks. . . yeah, you're gonna be in trouble.

Speaking of such cliffs, you can still walk off a steep drop and take falling damage. Feathering the jump jet throttle may let you cushion that fall, but it'll still take practice (perhaps more so, if the first half of the jump charge meter provides more thrust than the bottom half, as my suggestion would.)

In any event, I wholeheartedly agree that jump jets should apply as much forward momentum as they do vertical thrust. That is, after all, the rule in tabletop: if you have three jumping MP, and so can cover three hexes in one jump, the maximum elevation you can traverse in one jump is three levels. If you have three jumping MP and are behind a level 4 piece of terrain, you're not getting over it.

[Mechteric]

Jets need to be fun. To be fun they need to jet you fast and high. By jetting fast and high they then require you to be higher in the air to effectively jump shoot, and this leaves you more open to retaliation as you fall back to the ground. Conversely with the previous slow and low jumping you just enough time to line up your jump shot and less time for retaliation since you only needed to expose the smallest amount of your mech to clear the guns and sight.

To balance the fast and high is easy, plenty of jet shake on the way up, plenty of heat build up, and slow jet recharge.

This, is how it should be done:
http://youtu.be/GF8uZ4VYRW8?t=1m21s

Edited by CapperDeluxe, 21 July 2014 - 07:08 AM.

[Mitsuragi]

I agree that JJ should be for maneuvering primarily and creating opportunities for skill shots secondarily if at all. As it stands it's very difficult to climb hills or cliffs with a full set of JJ appropriate to chassis/weight class.

[Zephonarch II]

Okay, I've been contested on this idea a while. I've had trouble picturing what you're implying but I like the idea and I think I understand what your proposing. I've had trouble getting used to the Jump Jets in this game as it's been more complicated and limited than the past games. And by what you suggest, you don't want a BOOST ability through the use of jump jets (where you are propelled forward [like in Hawken] [which I didn't first think is what you meant]); you want a revamped Jump Jet system to be something similar to spring-like Jump Jets in the Intro Video for MechWarrior 3.

Ansgar Odinson, on 19 July 2014 - 10:40 AM, said:

I would like to see JJ be more jumpy than blimpy. What I suggest is giving JJ a charge meter. You hold down your jump button then release, the more you charge the more fuel is consumed and the closer to your max altitude you will jump. Once release the JJ would burn the amount of fuel charged all in one blast propelling the mech through the air in a forward arc rather quickly. Instead of hovering up you would jump. Once in the air jump jets would work a lot like they do now, any conserved fuel could be used to slow your fall. This change would have to be coupled with undoing the recent changes to jump jets.

To enunciate, there are 2 IS Fireflies perched on top of a building scouting a Clan Thor/Summoner. They burst towards in using Jump Jets like you suggest and glide slowly towards the Thor, and eventually back to the ground, while just before their landing the Fireflies (through SFX) sound like they give off exhaust to hover back to the ground eliminating fall damage.

That's not a problem to me, I think it adds to the depth of using Jump Jets for all mechs especially light mechs giving more control while in mid-flight to us so we can aim more precisely. But would this also mean is we could be able to burst ourselves in different directions while jump jetting? It's been like that before, and with this type of mechanic I believe Mechs should be able to steer with what fuel they have left in mid-flight to burst in other directions opposite from the flat arc you suggest (and with the current unchangeable system). It would add a new and old degree of skill to Jump Jets which to the devs, is a win-win. They could make a module for JJs.

And also...

Aleksandr Sergeyevich Kerensky, on 19 July 2014 - 03:54 PM, said:

... 1 thing I want, is more forced forward moment. Jump jets don't move a mech forward enough, they are a form of local motion, so I believe they should force you to transverse the map more.

This is logical and probably where PGI should start. I don't know if that's the case, but Jump Jets need more flexibility. This mechanic should just be like the MW3 intro vid. but forward momentum is a good idea. Maybe the faster a Mech goes, the angle of their forward arc might change, along with how they charge the JJ meter.

Edited by Zephonarch II, 24 July 2014 - 02:28 PM.

[Ansgar Odinson]

@Zephonarc II I forgot all about that vid, yes exactly like that. That is an excellent visualization!

[focuspark]

I like the idea, but I've always wanted a "simpler" approach.

Pressing the jump key (usually spacebar) propels a 'mech 30m forward and 15m upwards. A 'mech can be propelled once for each jump jet mounted once every 10 seconds. The jump should take about 1 second.

Thus a 'mech with five jump jets (the Clan Nova for example) would have five jump jets and the pilot could jump 30, 60, 90, 120, or 150 meters straight ahead based on the number of taps placed on the spacebar. Rotation should be allowed, but not direction change.

This better mimics table top. Keeps the maneuverability functionality of jump jets, completely changes the meta game.

[Ansgar Odinson]

Quote

I like the idea, but I've always wanted a "simpler" approach.

Pressing the jump key (usually spacebar) propels a 'mech 30m forward and 15m upwards. A 'mech can be propelled once for each jump jet mounted once every 10 seconds. The jump should take about 1 second.

Thus a 'mech with five jump jets (the Clan Nova for example) would have five jump jets and the pilot could jump 30, 60, 90, 120, or 150 meters straight ahead based on the number of taps placed on the spacebar. Rotation should be allowed, but not direction change.

This better mimics table top. Keeps the maneuverability functionality of jump jets, completely changes the meta game.

I can see something like that. I do prefer the charge method personally. I hate the idea that more jets means more fuel rather than more thrust for the fuel you spend.

[Cyborne Elemental]

JJ's almost need to be tweaked on a Mech by Mech basis as well, but anything that improves FULL jumpjets working like they should is needed, The thrust #'s are WAY off, and even with full jets you're not even getting half of what you used to.

[ExAstra]

CapperDeluxe, on 21 July 2014 - 05:52 AM, said:

This, is how it should be done:
http://youtu.be/GF8uZ4VYRW8?t=1m21s

Short, sweet, and to the point.

Man I miss MWLL. I hope that someday I will have the same affection for MWO as I did MWLL.