19 replies to this topic

[Troggy]

PGI,

It's seems pretty clear at this point ECM is a fairly mature system. I'm sure there will be changes, but the players have adapted and while not everyone likes it, everything seems pretty fine.

One very major problem remains, and the release of Alpine has highlighted it:

There is NO reason to run a non-ECM Raven, Commando, and Spider.* Especially the Raven. The other Ravens are slower, arguably more poorly armed, and don't have ECM.

This, in itself, is fine. Unfortunately, it means these chassis are very lacking in variety. Virtually every Raven is the same 3L build. Every Commando is the 2D (either with STKs or SRM4s). Every Spider is the 5D.

This is really non-ideal. It would be vastly more interesting if each chassis could carry ECM. Then we wouldn't know what we were going to face. There wouldn't be more ECM in game (people already only play these other variants to grind them), but the variety among these light mechs would create a whole new light mech dynamic.

I see no drawbacks to this change, only advantages. Make all the light mechs viable.

--
Troggy

*Jenners and Cicadas are fine as is.

[Doc Holliday]

No. In its current state, either ALL mechs (not just certain chassis) need to be able to use ECM or none.

[Troggy]

@ Doc Holliday,

Perhaps. And, that is being discussed in a dozen different places. But, that is all utterly irrelevant to my point.

Simply allowing all the variants of these chassis to use ECM immediately makes the game more varied and more interesting without changing the balance at all. It just makes all of the variants viable and would improve the variety of mechs we see on the battlefield.

It would also prevent teams from being crippled by grinders. (you get 3 Raven 4x's, the opponent has the 3L variant instead, you are very likely toast...that currently playing out as a horrible game mechanic). The immediate solution is very simple.

The balance/universal ECM thing is a whole different argument.
--
Troggy

[Mounty]

Why don't we make all light mechs invisible and completely invincible while were at it. Give us a break. If you want to make the other lights more viable add a draw back for carrying ECM. I've never believed they should be front line units, carrying ECM should cost you armor, a lot of it.

[Troggy]

I would hardly call a spider with ECM "invincible"... Nonetheless, ECM balancing is a different discussion. If it's too OP for one Raven, it's too OP for them all. And vice versa.

So, it should be activated on all of them, we should get some variety in the game, then it would be easier to evaluate the ECM objectively. Right now it is on all the 'best' variants, and NOTHING else can ECM counter them. That is causing a lot of imbalance.

I suspect the activation of ECM on the other R/C/S chassis would alleviate much of the frustration.

--
Troggy

Mounty, on 21 February 2013 - 08:43 PM, said:

Why don't we make all light mechs invisible and completely invincible while were at it. Give us a break. If you want to make the other lights more viable add a draw back for carrying ECM. I've never believed they should be front line units, carrying ECM should cost you armor, a lot of it.

[ICEFANG13]

Considering that the ECM mechs are already the best of their type pre-ECM, I agree that nothing would happen by doing this. In comparison, the Raven-4X and 2X are still worthless.

[Chemistry Warden]

I've been piloting commandos for a bit, and while the -2D is one of the better variants, I have more fun playing unconventional builds on other variants.

That being said, I don't think that the other variants NEED ECM, you just have to play them differently.

[Bilaz]

Troggy, on 21 February 2013 - 08:49 PM, said:

I would hardly call a spider with ECM "invincible"... Nonetheless, ECM balancing is a different discussion. If it's too OP for one Raven, it's too OP for them all. And vice versa.

So, it should be activated on all of them, we should get some variety in the game, then it would be easier to evaluate the ECM objectively. Right now it is on all the 'best' variants, and NOTHING else can ECM counter them. That is causing a lot of imbalance.

I suspect the activation of ECM on the other R/C/S chassis would alleviate much of the frustration.

--
Troggy

why not cidadas? why not centurions? why not dragons? why not awesomes? they all suffer from ecm effects same as your ravens and spiders, they all would benefit greatly from ecm on them (and its not like they are biggest baddest mechs of their class). All your arguments work for all other mech as much as they work for selected lights.

When devs decided that jenner should not have ecm - that was a moment of clarity, showing that ecm is soo much overpowered that any mech with it is much better than one without and jenners were already better than other lights. By rebalancing ecm, making it less disrupting and/or making it skill dependant - you would make it from a MUST to an option, one that other mechs can also live without and not unconditionally suffer while doing that.

That is if you dont concider "greed is good" factor. Becouse if you do - making good but expensive variants with ecm, and cheap, but rubbish ones without - its exactly what you would want people to spend their money on, and if they dont - make their life as miserable as possible while they grind for cash.

[Asseri]

Once ECM has proper counter then we can talk.
Beagle Active Probe should negate ECM effects at distance (or at least diminish them) and allow locks and targeting but ECM should work like it already does withing 180m range. Wich is disabling BAP.

[arghmace]

Troggy, on 21 February 2013 - 04:08 PM, said:

It's seems pretty clear at this point ECM is a fairly mature system...
...
There is NO reason to run a non-ECM Raven, Commando, and Spider.

Hmm, could you maybe contradict yourself a bit more? How can an equipment be mature (as in well balanced) and at the same time make Mechs not able to equip it useless?

ECM is still about 3 times as powerful as it should be, nothing has changed.

Edited by arghmace, 22 February 2013 - 02:50 AM.

[Xendojo]

ICEFANG13, on 21 February 2013 - 09:00 PM, said:

Considering that the ECM mechs are already the best of their type pre-ECM, I agree that nothing would happen by doing this. In comparison, the Raven-4X and 2X are still worthless.

My RVN-4X with 2LL and an SRM4, with an XL 245 and JJ, begs to differ. Granted i did sell my 2X, but that's because the 4X can do everything the 2X can do, but with JJ. My 4X can do things my 3L can not do, bottom line.

Edited by Xendojo, 22 February 2013 - 05:23 AM.

[sycocys]

If there were to be a change in variants that could have ecm it would be far better to limit it to the least effective variant of the mechs not the most effective or in the Raven's case the one that takes insane amounts of extra damage beyond its armor limit.

[ICEFANG13]

Xendojo, on 22 February 2013 - 05:21 AM, said:

My RVN-4X with 2LL and an SRM4, with an XL 245 and JJ, begs to differ. Granted i did sell my 2X, but that's because the 4X can do everything the 2X can do, but with JJ. My 4X can do things my 3L can not do, bottom line.

You made a mech worse than a Jenner-K. If it works, great, but the Jenner-K can do the same thing, with more module slots.

[Troggy]

@Arghmace,

No contradiction. I said ECM appears fairly mature in that the devs have had several weeks to look at its effect and they haven't changed it. LRMs are back in a big way, and the game is business as usual.

However, the non-ecm Ravens and Commandos (and spiders) are now very clearly deficient and absolutely need to be elevated (via ECM) to be useful. It has been pointed out that a Jenner K is a better Raven 4X. With how slow that thing is, you might as well pilot a Dragon and carry TWICE the firepower.

@Bilaz,

Your argument is based in hyperbole, at best. Obviously, the devs are using ECM as one aspect of balancing the game. As I say, there are a vast number of threads discussing whether this is appropriate. But, there is A WORLD of difference between allowing all the Ravens (even the lame ones) to carry ECM, and allowing Hunchbacks or Catapults (which can carry 70-90 alpha strikes and still move at 80KPH), to have them. 3 chassis with ECM on all variants would simply make a richer game. Allowing 'invisible' 6-cats might be problematic.

--
Troggy

arghmace, on 22 February 2013 - 02:49 AM, said:

Hmm, could you maybe contradict yourself a bit more? How can an equipment be mature (as in well balanced) and at the same time make Mechs not able to equip it useless?

ECM is still about 3 times as powerful as it should be, nothing has changed.

[ICEFANG13]

The Jenner-K is better than the 2X, but only better in that build, where he uses no ballistics.

[JadePanther]

If u wanna enjoy the benefits of Speed Tweak and an extra module slot, then u have to run non-ecm lights.

Not much of a way around it unless u wanna spend MC on converting to GXP, and then on top of that u have to buy the xtra varients before u can use said GXP. Buying etra varients and wasting the cbills by not even playing them is just a waste..

So since ya bought it then u midas well at least grind it.. Saves MC n CB, but it can be hazardous to ur stats.

[Argent Usher]

Dear Troggy,

it all sounds very plausible and well thought out but let us first make "your" ecm from 1.5 t to 8 t (eight -eɪt) and let's see how many Raven or Commando we will see on the battlefield.


*Spiders are fine as is.


A.U.

[Footupyzz]

love the discussion about ecm, what the best light is...blablabla.
for me the jenner is the finnest light mech to play. do not need ecm i got infa-RED, chat and ts to give info 2 my teammates (PUG or PRE).
i learned to aim pretty good with srm (as i must say:D).
I love the challenge of putting down an ecm mech equiped with streaks (like most of them). Although i also hate streak equiped light mech i just keep the thought up that they suck at aiming (just a little taunt )
they kill me as often as i kill them so i do not see the prob with ecm.
But it would be bad to give all ecm....you be all salvage....when i am arround

Good luck

Edited by Footupyazz, 22 February 2013 - 11:16 AM.

[Aaren Kai]

This topic? Sure... I'll take another whack at that horse. Two things, ECM should build up heat... This way you can't run it forever, maybe even give it a cool down so you can't turn the thing on and off. Second make it so no SSRMs lock in the ECM bubble. Friendly or not.

(Drops the mic and crosses his arms with a f u forms look)